Where would a prime Joe Dumars rank among SGs and players overall today?

TheBomb81 · Post #1 » by **TheBomb81** » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:24 pm

What do you think?

eminence · Post #2 » by **eminence** » Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:02 pm

Pretty even with Klay in my mind, maybe just a hair better.

mischievous · Post #3 » by **mischievous** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:09 am

I don’t know a lot about Dumar’s game to be honest, but I can’t see him as anything more than a very good role player today.

Repeat 3-peat · Post #4 » by **Repeat 3-peat** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:44 am

6× NBA All-Star (1990–1993, 1995, 1997)
All-NBA Second Team (1993)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1990, 1991)
4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1989–1990, 1992–1993)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991)

Career averages of 16.1 ppg, 46% FG, 38% 3PT (Was a 20ppg scorer in his prime)

I'd say he would be one of the top SG's in the NBA.

70sFan · Post #5 » by **70sFan** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:19 am

mischievous wrote:I don’t know a lot about Dumar’s game to be honest, but I can’t see him as anything more than a very good role player today.

Do you think that Klay is role player?

Collie · Post #6 » by **Collie** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:29 am

Really good player, even more so for his defense than his offense. Imagine Marcus Smart with Eric Gordon's offense. I dunno if he'd be a top 5 SG, but I'd probably take him over CJ and Beal.

Kabookalu · Post #7 » by **Kabookalu** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:20 am

mischievous wrote:I don’t know a lot about Dumar’s game to be honest, but I can’t see him as anything more than a very good role player today.

He's like Bradley Beal but with better passing. And shorter too, which might hurt him in today's game and could force him to be a PG. He's a consummate off guard that can make up for everything his lead guard can't do. A jack of all trades, and while not a master at any of them (except defense), he's an expert at all of them.

mischievous · Post #8 » by **mischievous** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:23 am

70sFan wrote:
mischievous wrote:I don’t know a lot about Dumar’s game to be honest, but I can’t see him as anything more than a very good role player today.

Do you think that Klay is role player?

No but I don’t really see them as similar aside from they were both good defenders. Dumars is listed as a 6’3 190 lbs guy, maybe he bulks up more today to around 200-210, but there’s no way that guy guards a Harden/Westbrook with any success or any sfs. Also doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s super athletic either. With his skillset I don’t see him as a 20 ppg guy like he was in his time.

JulesWinnfield · Post #9 » by **JulesWinnfield** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:09 am

Yea i dont see the Klay comparisons at all. Klay is way bigger

Dumars was very good in his time but i dont know the ceiling today of a 6’3” pure shooting guard who isnt an awesome athlete and was a very good (but not jaw dropping) shooter. Hed be an excellent 3 and D piece who would certainly shoot more threes today and hed still have a very solid career, i dont know about 5-6 all star games though

That Pistons run was weird, all of us look at their roster and arent blown away by the individual pieces....but in order to explain away the success they had we fill in those gaps by making guys like Isiah and Dumars out to be greater than they were as individuals.

70sFan · Post #10 » by **70sFan** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:52 pm

mischievous wrote:
70sFan wrote:
mischievous wrote:I don’t know a lot about Dumar’s game to be honest, but I can’t see him as anything more than a very good role player today.

Do you think that Klay is role player?

No but I don’t really see them as similar aside from they were both good defenders. Dumars is listed as a 6’3 190 lbs guy, maybe he bulks up more today to around 200-210, but there’s no way that guy guards a Harden/Westbrook with any success or any sfs. Also doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s super athletic either. With his skillset I don’t see him as a 20 ppg guy like he was in his time.

Dumars is bigger and stronger than Avery Bradley, elite defensive player. I don't see how he wouldn't be able to defend PGs and SGs, Westbrook isn't even taller than him. He's not extremely athletic, but he's very quick - quick enough to stay in front of young MJ. That's bigger accomplishement than defending Harden or Westbrook.

Dumars is also extremely good second playmaker, something people don't realize in this thread. He's not as good shooter as Klay, but he's far better ballhandler, passer and P&R player. He has also quite high BBIQ. He's ideal for modern contender as combo guard. I can't see him being below top 5 SGs in the league, especially given how weak this position is now.

Jaivl · Post #11 » by **Jaivl** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:46 pm

70sFan wrote:Avery Bradley, elite defensive player.

???

Not really, by anything other than reputation.

HeartBreakKid · Post #12 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:04 pm

mischievous wrote:
70sFan wrote:
mischievous wrote:I don’t know a lot about Dumar’s game to be honest, but I can’t see him as anything more than a very good role player today.

Do you think that Klay is role player?

No but I don’t really see them as similar aside from they were both good defenders. Dumars is listed as a 6’3 190 lbs guy, maybe he bulks up more today to around 200-210, but there’s no way that guy guards a Harden/Westbrook with any success or any sfs. Also doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s super athletic either. With his skillset I don’t see him as a 20 ppg guy like he was in his time.

He's almost the same size as Westbrook - why mention his size and then say he can't guard star players?

JulesWinnfield wrote:Yea i dont see the Klay comparisons at all. Klay is way bigger

Dumars was very good in his time but i dont know the ceiling today of a 6’3” pure shooting guard who isnt an awesome athlete and was a very good (but not jaw dropping) shooter. Hed be an excellent 3 and D piece who would certainly shoot more threes today and hed still have a very solid career, i dont know about 5-6 all star games though

That Pistons run was weird, all of us look at their roster and arent blown away by the individual pieces....but in order to explain away the success they had we fill in those gaps by making guys like Isiah and Dumars out to be greater than they were as individuals.

What do you mean by pure shooting guard? He was a combo guard.

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:05 pm

Jaivl wrote:
70sFan wrote:Avery Bradley, elite defensive player.

???

Not really, by anything other than reputation.

But he was a few years ago. You can't tell me that he became lesser defender because the league got bigger... Besides, we have plenty of elite 6'3 190 lbs defenders.

mischievous · Post #14 » by **mischievous** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:11 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
mischievous wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Do you think that Klay is role player?

No but I don’t really see them as similar aside from they were both good defenders. Dumars is listed as a 6’3 190 lbs guy, maybe he bulks up more today to around 200-210, but there’s no way that guy guards a Harden/Westbrook with any success or any sfs. Also doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s super athletic either. With his skillset I don’t see him as a 20 ppg guy like he was in his time.

He's almost the same size as Westbrook - why mention his size and then say he can't guard star players?

JulesWinnfield wrote:Yea i dont see the Klay comparisons at all. Klay is way bigger

Dumars was very good in his time but i dont know the ceiling today of a 6’3” pure shooting guard who isnt an awesome athlete and was a very good (but not jaw dropping) shooter. Hed be an excellent 3 and D piece who would certainly shoot more threes today and hed still have a very solid career, i dont know about 5-6 all star games though

That Pistons run was weird, all of us look at their roster and arent blown away by the individual pieces....but in order to explain away the success they had we fill in those gaps by making guys like Isiah and Dumars out to be greater than they were as individuals.

What do you mean by pure shooting guard? He was a combo guard.

I don’t think he has the athleticism.

70sFan · Post #15 » by **70sFan** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:24 pm

mischievous wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
mischievous wrote:No but I don’t really see them as similar aside from they were both good defenders. Dumars is listed as a 6’3 190 lbs guy, maybe he bulks up more today to around 200-210, but there’s no way that guy guards a Harden/Westbrook with any success or any sfs. Also doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s super athletic either. With his skillset I don’t see him as a 20 ppg guy like he was in his time.

He's almost the same size as Westbrook - why mention his size and then say he can't guard star players?

JulesWinnfield wrote:Yea i dont see the Klay comparisons at all. Klay is way bigger

Dumars was very good in his time but i dont know the ceiling today of a 6’3” pure shooting guard who isnt an awesome athlete and was a very good (but not jaw dropping) shooter. Hed be an excellent 3 and D piece who would certainly shoot more threes today and hed still have a very solid career, i dont know about 5-6 all star games though

That Pistons run was weird, all of us look at their roster and arent blown away by the individual pieces....but in order to explain away the success they had we fill in those gaps by making guys like Isiah and Dumars out to be greater than they were as individuals.

What do you mean by pure shooting guard? He was a combo guard.

I don’t think he has the athleticism.

He had athleticism to guard Jordan and Drexler, but wouldn't handle Westbrook or Harden?

JulesWinnfield · Post #16 » by **JulesWinnfield** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:51 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
mischievous wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Do you think that Klay is role player?

No but I don’t really see them as similar aside from they were both good defenders. Dumars is listed as a 6’3 190 lbs guy, maybe he bulks up more today to around 200-210, but there’s no way that guy guards a Harden/Westbrook with any success or any sfs. Also doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s super athletic either. With his skillset I don’t see him as a 20 ppg guy like he was in his time.

He's almost the same size as Westbrook - why mention his size and then say he can't guard star players?

JulesWinnfield wrote:Yea i dont see the Klay comparisons at all. Klay is way bigger

Dumars was very good in his time but i dont know the ceiling today of a 6’3” pure shooting guard who isnt an awesome athlete and was a very good (but not jaw dropping) shooter. Hed be an excellent 3 and D piece who would certainly shoot more threes today and hed still have a very solid career, i dont know about 5-6 all star games though

That Pistons run was weird, all of us look at their roster and arent blown away by the individual pieces....but in order to explain away the success they had we fill in those gaps by making guys like Isiah and Dumars out to be greater than they were as individuals.

What do you mean by pure shooting guard? He was a combo guard.

I mean i dont think he could be your point guard/primary ball handler/decision maker. Thats not to say he wasnt a good passer who could handle the ball and had a good feel for the game...but hes your starting SG in almost every lineup i can imagine him in. It would take some clear extenuating circumstances for me to entertain starting him at PG

magicman1978 · Post #17 » by **magicman1978** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:11 pm

JulesWinnfield wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
mischievous wrote:No but I don’t really see them as similar aside from they were both good defenders. Dumars is listed as a 6’3 190 lbs guy, maybe he bulks up more today to around 200-210, but there’s no way that guy guards a Harden/Westbrook with any success or any sfs. Also doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s super athletic either. With his skillset I don’t see him as a 20 ppg guy like he was in his time.

He's almost the same size as Westbrook - why mention his size and then say he can't guard star players?

JulesWinnfield wrote:Yea i dont see the Klay comparisons at all. Klay is way bigger

Dumars was very good in his time but i dont know the ceiling today of a 6’3” pure shooting guard who isnt an awesome athlete and was a very good (but not jaw dropping) shooter. Hed be an excellent 3 and D piece who would certainly shoot more threes today and hed still have a very solid career, i dont know about 5-6 all star games though

That Pistons run was weird, all of us look at their roster and arent blown away by the individual pieces....but in order to explain away the success they had we fill in those gaps by making guys like Isiah and Dumars out to be greater than they were as individuals.

What do you mean by pure shooting guard? He was a combo guard.

I mean i dont think he could be your point guard/primary ball handler/decision maker. Thats not to say he wasnt a good passer who could handle the ball and had a good feel for the game...but hes your starting SG in almost every lineup i can imagine him in. It would take some clear extenuating circumstances for me to entertain starting him at PG

Why does his specific position matter though? He'd be a great fit on a lot of teams.

Kabookalu · Post #18 » by **Kabookalu** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:05 am

Regarding Dumar's defense, the player I'd compare his defense to today for reference is Fred VanVleet. Fred is only 5'11 with an average wingspan for his size, and he only has average athleticism, but he moves his feet incredibly well, he understands positioning, and he knows how to use his hands. He's shut down point guards that are much bigger than him. Dumars is more athletic than Fred, but in today's league I'd probably say he's above average to good, in the same ballpark as Bradley Beal, which is why I love that comparison so much on top of how similar their offensive games are.

But as Fred has shown you don't need out of this world athleticism to be a great defender.

It's too bad that there isn't a compilation out there of Joe Dumars' defense (I figured there would be one since the greatest player of all time said he was the best at defending him), though to get a good idea of Dumars' defense, just imagine Fred in this video, but more athletic and 6'3.

Watch on YouTube

bizil · Post #19 » by **bizil** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:14 am

To be honest, this crop of SG's isn't really close to the Golden Era crop of the 2000s. With guys like Mamba, Wade, T Mac, Vince, AI, Ray, Pierce (his primary position was SG multiple seasons back then), etc. In today's crop, Harden is the only one who is a superstar level player. BUT a prime Joe D would be a top 5 type SG in today's game. When u combine scoring, passing, and defense as package, he would arguably be the BEST SG in the league for combining those elements in today's game! And in today's game, I wouldn't be surprised if was a PG. He was that skilled! Just never the dominant scorer guys like MJ, Drexler, Mitch, etc. were back in that era.

Collie · Post #20 » by **Collie** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:23 am

Thinking about it, I think Joe would even be better today. He's ideal for this era -- great shooter, incredible defender, could play either guard position, and could guard 1-3. Only difference is that he'd be more of a point guard in today's league, where he has great size for it.