Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

[dckingsfan]

I think he was worth the risk - but others have pointed out that it would have been cheaper to stretch him. One can legitimately say that he hasn't improved much over the last two years - I don't think he is cut out to be a starting PG - but I think he will improve on OKC and benefit from not being the first option.

On defense he will improve by having less PT and a couple of rim protectors behind him. On offense, count on either Westbrook or George to be in the game at the same time - his usage will decrease and his relative production will increase.

My prediction is we will see a pretty good jump in his game next year. Is it worth the $6M (15 - 9 stretch)? I think so - then again, Yogi Ferrell just signed for $3M - so maybe not.

[closg00]

Congratulations to Jabari Bird, he went from 56th pick to a 2-year contract.

Watch on YouTube

[Ruzious]

Good, not great passer. Poor shooter and defender. Savvy scoring with floaters, drawing fouls, etc...
So he is a slightly poor mans Ramon Sessions... For 45M+ over the next 3 years... essshhh

http://bkref.com/tiny/ui9R1

Schroeder's a far better player than Sessions - better at every facet of the game except drawing fouls and rebounding.

[pcbothwel]

Good, not great passer. Poor shooter and defender. Savvy scoring with floaters, drawing fouls, etc...
So he is a slightly poor mans Ramon Sessions... For 45M+ over the next 3 years... essshhh

http://bkref.com/tiny/ui9R1

Schroeder's a far better player than Sessions - better at every facet of the game except drawing fouls and rebounding.

Explain. I just showed you an EXACT comparison of their 1st 5 years, at the same age, playing the same minutes.
They are almost IDENTICAL in every facet, with Sessions actually slightly more efficient...

Does "every facet" include efficiency, defense, rebounding, passing, etc. Because Schroder is not better than Sessions at ANY of those.

[Ruzious]

Good, not great passer. Poor shooter and defender. Savvy scoring with floaters, drawing fouls, etc...
So he is a slightly poor mans Ramon Sessions... For 45M+ over the next 3 years... essshhh

http://bkref.com/tiny/ui9R1

Schroeder's a far better player than Sessions - better at every facet of the game except drawing fouls and rebounding.

Explain. I just showed you an EXACT comparison of their 1st 5 years, at the same age, playing the same minutes.
They are almost IDENTICAL in every facet, with Sessions actually slightly more efficient...

Does "every facet" include efficiency, defense, rebounding, passing, etc. Because Schroder is not better than Sessions at ANY of those.

It's my opinion from following Sessions since he came into the NBA with Milwaukee, and Shroeder is still an improving player. Part of why the stats are misleading is because Sessions has played against backups for all of his career. Shroeder showed he can score 19.4 points and 6.2 assists as a starter last season. Sessions has - from day 1 - been one of the worst defenders I've ever seen and had no idea of how to run an offense - and I've said that several times over the years, so I'm not just saying this to argue with you.

[pancakes3]

schroeder's much better. the first 5 year comparison is disingenuous bc schroder's numbers are dragged down by his unimpressive rookie season. he's clearly improved by leaps and bounds since then.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Schroeder has the potential to be much better, but last season doesn't show particularly well for him unless you're willing to look at volume. The Hawks, a team actively trying to lose with a bunch of terrible NBA players, were more successful with Schroeder on the bench than they were with him on the floor. Say what you want about starters/reserves, that team was so bad it really didn't matter. He doesn't have much of an excuse for not at least playing significant better than most of that team. Schroeder struggles to run an offense, too.

If Sessions is too hard to conceive of the comparison for emotional and/or era disparities, I do think there are other potential comparisons here though. I don't feel Schroeder is outrageously far off the likes of Jordan Clarkson or Reggie Jackson. The Thunder already had Reggie Jackson, though. The big issue with Schroeder is that he's good, but he just isn't good enough to be a lead guard for a good team. And if he isn't the lead guard, there really isn't anything that he does so well to be good at any more specific role.

[Kanyewest]

Good, not great passer. Poor shooter and defender. Savvy scoring with floaters, drawing fouls, etc...
So he is a slightly poor mans Ramon Sessions... For 45M+ over the next 3 years... essshhh

http://bkref.com/tiny/ui9R1

Schroeder's a far better player than Sessions - better at every facet of the game except drawing fouls and rebounding.

Explain. I just showed you an EXACT comparison of their 1st 5 years, at the same age, playing the same minutes.
They are almost IDENTICAL in every facet, with Sessions actually slightly more efficient...

Does "every facet" include efficiency, defense, rebounding, passing, etc. Because Schroder is not better than Sessions at ANY of those.

Actually it looks like Sessions was slightly older than Schroder. But yeah, Dennis looks like he's overpaid.

[dckingsfan]

Schroeder's a far better player than Sessions - better at every facet of the game except drawing fouls and rebounding.

Explain. I just showed you an EXACT comparison of their 1st 5 years, at the same age, playing the same minutes.
They are almost IDENTICAL in every facet, with Sessions actually slightly more efficient...

Does "every facet" include efficiency, defense, rebounding, passing, etc. Because Schroder is not better than Sessions at ANY of those.

Actually it looks like Sessions was slightly older than Schroder. But yeah, Dennis looks like he's overpaid.

Is his contract reasonable at 5, 6 or 7M?

[I_Like_Dirt]

Actually it looks like Sessions was slightly older than Schroder. But yeah, Dennis looks like he's overpaid.
Is his contract reasonable at 5, 6 or 7M?

I have a hard time believing he's worth more than Lou Williams, for example. That 5 to 7 range seems okay on that end. If he matures and buys in and finds a way to be effective in a reduced role, he'd be alright. That said, while Schroeder scores more than Elfrid Payton, I'm not convinced Schroeder is any better than Payton, and Payton just got 1 year at $2.7 million. That's sort of my point in all of this, though. Payton for what he got while stretching Melo actually would have saved the Thunder quite a bit more this season than the trade they made. I still think this is them effectively stretching Melo while paying a premium in order to be trade his stretched contract in the future, and they'll be looking to move Schroeder for cap savings in the form of another unwanted player who makes a little less asap.

[Ruzious]

Actually it looks like Sessions was slightly older than Schroder. But yeah, Dennis looks like he's overpaid.

Is his contract reasonable at 5, 6 or 7M?

I have a hard time believing he's worth more than Lou Williams, for example. That 5 to 7 range seems okay on that end. If he matures and buys in and finds a way to be effective in a reduced role, he'd be alright. That said, while Schroeder scores more than Elfrid Payton, I'm not convinced Schroeder is any better than Payton, and Payton just got 1 year at $2.7 million. That's sort of my point in all of this, though. Payton for what he got while stretching Melo actually would have saved the Thunder quite a bit more this season than the trade they made. I still think this is them effectively stretching Melo while paying a premium in order to be trade his stretched contract in the future, and they'll be looking to move Schroeder for cap savings in the form of another unwanted player who makes a little less asap.[/quote]
Payton is ridiculously under-paid, imo. Maybe he gets downgraded for having the worst hair style in NBA history - seems reasonable.

And remember, Lou Williams is an old 32 - he's been in the NBA since he was 19.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Lou Williams was really, really good last season, though. Maybe this coming season he's worse than those other guys, but those guys need to get quite a bit better. Payton and Schroeder have potential, but they basically need a 2nd rookie scale after their 1st rookie scale because they're not that good. They put up their own versions of Michael Carter-Williams lines running bad teams. Teams that don't want to be bad teams are going to want better players as their lead guard. Heck, even the Thunder don't want Schroeder as their lead guard.

But if you want to continue down that path, I believe Fred Van Vleet is worth more than Schroeder, too. It's tougher to compare because Van Vleet was backing up an allstar on a good team and Schroeder got to do whatever he want aboard the Titanic. That said, Schroeder is backing up an allstar on a good team now, too. I'd rather have Van Vleet, and Van Vleet didn't even get $10 million per season.

[dckingsfan]

Lou Williams was really, really good last season, though. Maybe this coming season he's worse than those other guys, but those guys need to get quite a bit better. Payton and Schroeder have potential, but they basically need a 2nd rookie scale after their 1st rookie scale because they're not that good. They put up their own versions of Michael Carter-Williams lines running bad teams. Teams that don't want to be bad teams are going to want better players as their lead guard. Heck, even the Thunder don't want Schroeder as their lead guard.

But if you want to continue down that path, I believe Fred Van Vleet is worth more than Schroeder, too. It's tougher to compare because Van Vleet was backing up an allstar on a good team and Schroeder got to do whatever he want aboard the Titanic. That said, Schroeder is backing up an allstar on a good team now, too. I'd rather have Van Vleet, and Van Vleet didn't even get $10 million per season.

The math on Schroeder is $15,500,000 - $9,309,380 = $6,190,620 per year. Definitely a risk - but, IMO, not a terribly bad risk. He only has to improve marginally to be worth the contract. If he improves substantially - it is a steal. If he gets hurt - bad move.

Remember - he has been a good defender in the past. If he just gets back to that he will be more than worthwhile. And his Assist/TO ratio is very solid especially against his usage.

But, now they have to play the games to see what happens

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

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Great deal for Houston but Capela gotta talk to his agent

This is a byproduct of no teams having cap space

This is the type of deal minus the incentives that the Wizards wanted to sign Otto Porter too in that 5 year $80-90M area

[payitforward]

Congratulations to Jabari Bird, he went from 56th pick to a 2-year contract.

Watch on YouTube

Congratulations to Danny Ainge & the Celtics as well for adding a player to their young core via a #56 pick.

Equally importantly, anti-congratulations to Ernie Grunfeld, who turned the #52 pick in the same draft into absolutely nothing by trading for Tim Frazier who played 800 minutes & then was gone.

[payitforward]

Dennis Schroder has been an AWFUL player every year of his career except '16-17 when he was only VERY BAD.

I really think Sam Presti has lost his touch.

[LyricalRico]

Houston is still active on trade fronts, perusing the market for a wing defender, and remains interested in Kent Bazemore of the Atlanta Hawks—according to a person with knowledge of the situation.

<snip>

The Rockets have long been admirers of Bazemore, having attempted to bring him in during 2016 free agency. However, it is unclear if Houston possesses the right amount of assets it would take to get Atlanta to part ways with him now. The Hawks like Bazemore and see him as a veteran presence during their rebuild, but would move him for the right offer.

Hawks GM Travis Schlenk wants assets, will always listen to offers, and would take back a contract such as Ryan Anderson’s but would require it be attached with a draft pick and/or a young player.

Houston has been engaging teams looking for someone to take Anderson’s contract for months, and currently has its 2019 first-round pick. A package of Anderson, Onuaku and a 2019 first checks out, but Atlanta doesn’t view Onuaku as a “move-the-needle” type prospect.

https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/2018/07/30/rockets-interested-in-kent-bazemore-trade/

I've always thought that Bazemore was a bit overrated (and certainly now overpaid), but I'd feel better about Houston's offseason if they are able to pull off Anderson+assets for Bazemore.

[trast66]

Dennis Schroder has been an AWFUL player every year of his career except '16-17 when he was only VERY BAD.

I really think Sam Presti has lost his touch.

Yeah he’s bad. Don’t know if Presti had much of a choice though. But no way him and Westbrook can play at same time. He signed a 4 year $62m contract last year. Oubre probably looking for more.

[I_Like_Dirt]

The math on Schroeder is $15,500,000 - $9,309,380 = $6,190,620 per year. Definitely a risk - but, IMO, not a terribly bad risk. He only has to improve marginally to be worth the contract. If he improves substantially - it is a steal. If he gets hurt - bad move.

Remember - he has been a good defender in the past. If he just gets back to that he will be more than worthwhile. And his Assist/TO ratio is very solid especially against his usage.

But, now they have to play the games to see what happens

The math on Schroder isn't that simple, actually. The Thunder are deep into the tax and were in the tax last season, too, so they're paying significantly more than whatever the difference is between his salary and Melo's stretched contract + whoever else they signed. And that tax bill only gets worse as they're repeatedly in the tax, which they will be unless they find a way to dramatically cut salary.

When has he been a good defender in the past? I suppose some of his peripherals were better than his usual dreadful self in 2015-16, but he still wasn't good despite being surrounded by a lot of very fundamentally sound veterans on that Hawks team, and he's been pretty terrible overall otherwise. He's entirely unpredictable out there, which can cause opposing teams problems, but tends to cause more problem for his own team because his teammates can't be sure what he's going to do at any given point.

As for it not being a terribly bad risk. I actually agree. My point here is that, while I understand it for the Thunder, I don't think this was an obvious win of a trade for them. This was a gamble with a little upside - not amazing upside, I don't think Schroeder is ever going to be a player a team wants to have playing starters minutes, but still decent upside, and it also comes with a certain degree of downside.

What I find interesting about all of this is Presti's absolute refusal to buy out any player and pay them not to be on the roster. I know everyone wanted to blame ownership with the Perkins/Harden situation, and that might be the case, but I think this Melo situation tilts things in the other direction. I have a hard time believing management would have had any issues with paying less salary and tax this season. To me, this is demonstrating how Presti basically refuses to pay players to play for another team. I get the sentiment, but given the mistakes he's made, I think he might be better served to swallow his pride sometimes.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Unless I'm mistaken, he's going to be a UFA next offseason.

True. All the same, this year he is making $1.6m.

Last year we traded an asset to get Tim Frazier & pay him $2m to be a UFA the next off-season.
Last year we signed Mike Scott & paid him $1.6m to be a UFA the next off season.
This year ditto the 32 year old Jeff Green.

As I say, it was a shame to miss on Holmes. A good player at a bargain price.

Even if the Wiz had traded for Holmes, realistically he probably wouldn't get any significant playing time. The shame remains the Mahinmi contract - an amazingly horrible signing.

Richaun Holmes and Montrezl Harrell are good enough to start and be effective Cs in today's NBA

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