Rotation if the season started today

[dckingsfan]

This is about Fox figuring it out AND about the coaching staff figuring out how to put Fox in the right situation.

But, Fox's first year wasn't good - there is no way around that. It wasn't just on the coaching staff - but the coaching staff didn't put him in the best light either.

Clearly he needs to be surrounded by shooters and a rim protector. Hield, Bogdanovic and Bjelica can spread the floor. WCS (if he puts his mind to it) and Giles could be good rim protectors.

Now let's see what unfolds

[SacKingZZZ]

This is about Fox figuring it out AND about the coaching staff figuring out how to put Fox in the right situation.

But, Fox's first year wasn't good - there is no way around that. It wasn't just on the coaching staff - but the coaching staff didn't put him in the best light either.

Clearly he needs to be surrounded by shooters and a rim protector. Hield, Bogdanovic and Bjelica can spread the floor. WCS (if he puts his mind to it) and Giles could be good rim protectors.

Now let's see what unfolds

The first part is absolutely true, but in the end it's still mostly on the coaching staff for putting a player out of place and then gee, he looked out of place. If there is a reason why almost every FA possible wants to stay away from Sacramento that's it. They obviously want him to get better at the things he doesn't do well, I just think it was a little too much trial by fire last year. That level of sink or swim works at lower levels, but in the NBA you always have to be concerned about asset value in particular while in the midst of a rebuild. This is a new year and we have to see if Joerger is true to his word, if so, then we can finally start seeing what these players are and then fully judge.

[dckingsfan]

This is about Fox figuring it out AND about the coaching staff figuring out how to put Fox in the right situation.

But, Fox's first year wasn't good - there is no way around that. It wasn't just on the coaching staff - but the coaching staff didn't put him in the best light either.

Clearly he needs to be surrounded by shooters and a rim protector. Hield, Bogdanovic and Bjelica can spread the floor. WCS (if he puts his mind to it) and Giles could be good rim protectors.

Now let's see what unfolds

The first part is absolutely true, but in the end it's still mostly on the coaching staff for putting a player out of place and then gee, he looked out of place. If there is a reason why almost every FA possible wants to stay away from Sacramento that's it. They obviously want him to get better at the things he doesn't do well, I just think it was a little too much trial by fire last year. That level of sink or swim works at lower levels, but in the NBA you always have to be concerned about asset value in particular while in the midst of a rebuild. This is a new year and we have to see if Joerger is true to his word, if so, then we can finally start seeing what these players are and then fully judge.

I think what you are saying is that the coaching staff put Fox in a position where he couldn't succeed last year - and I can't disagree with that. I would add that the FO put the coach in a bad position by bringing in assets that didn't really help someone like Fox (Randolph for example).

Now the coach has the opportunity to surround Fox with 3 shooters and a rim protector. Let's see if he takes advantage of the opportunity.

And Fox needs to improve his defense, 3P%, FT%, TS% and AST%/TOV% ratio regardless of what offensive schema they run. If he improves on all accounts (which I expect he will), then he will be fine.

[KF10]

PGs take longer to develop. I like Fox. He's going to be alright, imo.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=De%27Aaron+Fox&player_id1_select=De%27Aaron+Fox&y1=2018&player_id1=foxde01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Mike+Conley&player_id2_select=Mike+Conley&y2=2008&player_id2=conlemi01&idx=players

[dckingsfan]

PGs take longer to develop. I like Fox. He's going to be alright, imo.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=De%27Aaron+Fox&player_id1_select=De%27Aaron+Fox&y1=2018&player_id1=foxde01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Mike+Conley&player_id2_select=Mike+Conley&y2=2008&player_id2=conlemi01&idx=players

Doesn't that show Conley being much better than Fox at the same point in time? I don't disagree with your premise though - it takes PGs and Cs more time to develop.

[PetrieUnderstudy]

If I were the coach here's what my rotation would look like. I'm assuming I'll have some people disagreeing but I'll provide my explanation.

Starters
PG De'Aaron Fox
SG Bogdan Bogdanovic
SF JaKarr Sampson
PF Nemanja Bjelica
C Willie Cauley-Stein

Bench
6th man Buddy Hield
7th man Yogi Ferrell
8th man Kosta Koufos
9th man Marvin Bagley III
10th man Harry Giles
11th man Skal Labissiere

12th man Iman Shumpert
13th man Zach Randolph

14th man Justin Jackson
15th man Frank Mason

2-way Wenyen Gabriel
2-way open

Explanation:

To start off I know I'm going against the norm by starting Sampson at SF. I feel JaKarr gives the Kings a chance to defend at SF. I love the guys attitude and hustle. He'll rebound, defend, bring it every night, knows his role, and hit an occasional three. While Bjelica isn't a defensive star he is a smart defender. I'd categorize Bogdan the same, a smart defender. I like the length and switching ability with Bogdan being able to guard 2's/3's, Sampson guarding 2's/3's/4's and Bjelica guarding 3's/4's. With this starting lineup I also like the familiarity of Bodgan and Bjelica having played together on their national team and Fenerbahce. They both are well rounded offensively and playing both of them gives Fox the minimum of two 3-point shooters to space the floor. I think we will see the best out of Willie this year especially if we are running and he's currently the best option to start at center. All five of these guys can play at the faster pace we've been wanting and hearing about this summer.

While JaKarr starts, he's the first one out 4 to 4 1/2 minutes in with Buddy entering the game at SG and Bogdan sliding over to SF. By games end it would essentially mean JaKarr is at 16-18 minutes per game and Buddy is 30-32 minutes. The next guy in is Yogi for Fox. He'd guard the smallest guy and could play PG offensively or play SG on offense with Bogdan running PG. The next guy in is Kosta for Willie. This lineup would be possibly the best shooting lineup with Yogi/Buddy/Bogi/Bjelica/Kosta. No Kosta can't shoot but he can rebound and set screens which shooters need. I know there are some that think that Bagley and Giles should be starting and why is Kosta that high in the rotation. I haven't seen enough from Bagley and Giles to warrant big playing time. I think we'd finish as the worst team in the league if we started them. Yes, they are our hopeful future but the future isn't now. Kosta in my opinion is a definite. Some may disagree but he's solid, knows his role, defends, and rebounds. Kosta is also no sloth, unlike ZBo he can run. One of the young bigs would then come in to replace Bjelica. I ordered it Bagley, Giles then Skal but I think the three of them need to fight it out. We just spent the #2 pick on Bagley and that's why I give him the nudge. We've been getting lots of hype on Giles and while he showed some flashes, eh. That eh still may be enough to surpass Skal. As the season progresses I'd like to see two of the young bigs make a statement and move up in the rotation but they aren't ready from the start.

The 12th and 13th men are Shumpert and ZBo. Shumpert has never been much on offense and he's a small forward on defense in a shooting guards body. Bogi and Buddy are much better SG's, younger and part of our future. Sampson brings length and intangibles. Shumpert will be begging for a Kings friendly buyout or possibly trade by deadline. ZBo does not fit a running team. He can bang on the young bigs in practice and provide leadership. He could also be bought out or dealt by the deadline.

Jackson and Mason are 14th and 15th and should be seeing time in Stockton. Jackson while leading the summer league team in scoring didn't bring much else. He needs to get into the high 30's plus in three point percentage to start seeing an NBA court. Frank underwhelmed this summer and that's why we see Yogi here. Frank needs to perfect a floater. I'm not giving up on him but he should only be playing if Fox or Yogi roles an ankle. He's nice to have as a 3rd PG.

Kings just signed Gabriel as a 2-way player. He plays a position of need and has some upside. I like the signing but he'll need lots of playing time in Stockton to develop.

Not mentioned are Ben McLemore and Deyonta Davis. They have both been rumored as cut candidates. We can keep them around through training camp until final roster cutdown is required. We've all seen enough of Ben and he's buried behind Bogi and Buddy. Davis while young, I've heard is lazy which isn't something I want around this team and is also buried behind our dearth of young bigs.

I want to see our best players playing big minutes. This will give us the best opportunity to win. We didn't have one player playing 30 plus minutes last year. I'd like to see Fox, Bogi, Buddy, Willie, and possibly Bjelica playing 30 plus minutes every night.

I know my plan isn't what most of what you guys have been thinking but with me providing an explanation what are your thoughts?

[SacKingZZZ]

This is about Fox figuring it out AND about the coaching staff figuring out how to put Fox in the right situation.

But, Fox's first year wasn't good - there is no way around that. It wasn't just on the coaching staff - but the coaching staff didn't put him in the best light either.

Clearly he needs to be surrounded by shooters and a rim protector. Hield, Bogdanovic and Bjelica can spread the floor. WCS (if he puts his mind to it) and Giles could be good rim protectors.

Now let's see what unfolds

The first part is absolutely true, but in the end it's still mostly on the coaching staff for putting a player out of place and then gee, he looked out of place. If there is a reason why almost every FA possible wants to stay away from Sacramento that's it. They obviously want him to get better at the things he doesn't do well, I just think it was a little too much trial by fire last year. That level of sink or swim works at lower levels, but in the NBA you always have to be concerned about asset value in particular while in the midst of a rebuild. This is a new year and we have to see if Joerger is true to his word, if so, then we can finally start seeing what these players are and then fully judge.

I think what you are saying is that the coaching staff put Fox in a position where he couldn't succeed last year - and I can't disagree with that. I would add that the FO put the coach in a bad position by bringing in assets that didn't really help someone like Fox (Randolph for example).

Now the coach has the opportunity to surround Fox with 3 shooters and a rim protector. Let's see if he takes advantage of the opportunity.

And Fox needs to improve his defense, 3P%, FT%, TS% and AST%/TOV% ratio regardless of what offensive schema they run. If he improves on all accounts (which I expect he will), then he will be fine.

Wait a minute, so you think that Vlade went out of his way to add Randolph with no input from Joerger? No way. That was a coach favor through and through. What connection does Vlade have to Zbo? None. If Dave Joerger didn't make that call then things are completely whacky in that front office for them to even consider Randolph.

[dckingsfan]

The first part is absolutely true, but in the end it's still mostly on the coaching staff for putting a player out of place and then gee, he looked out of place. If there is a reason why almost every FA possible wants to stay away from Sacramento that's it. They obviously want him to get better at the things he doesn't do well, I just think it was a little too much trial by fire last year. That level of sink or swim works at lower levels, but in the NBA you always have to be concerned about asset value in particular while in the midst of a rebuild. This is a new year and we have to see if Joerger is true to his word, if so, then we can finally start seeing what these players are and then fully judge.

I think what you are saying is that the coaching staff put Fox in a position where he couldn't succeed last year - and I can't disagree with that. I would add that the FO put the coach in a bad position by bringing in assets that didn't really help someone like Fox (Randolph for example).

Now the coach has the opportunity to surround Fox with 3 shooters and a rim protector. Let's see if he takes advantage of the opportunity.

And Fox needs to improve his defense, 3P%, FT%, TS% and AST%/TOV% ratio regardless of what offensive schema they run. If he improves on all accounts (which I expect he will), then he will be fine.

Wait a minute, so you think that Vlade went out of his way to add Randolph with no input from Joerger? No way. That was a coach favor through and through. What connection does Vlade have to Zbo? None. If Dave Joerger didn't make that call then things are completely whacky in that front office for them to even consider Randolph.

This isn't about collusion. This about the FO doing the FOs job and the coach doing the coaches job.

The FO should have said no to Zbo - that's it, end of story. It was bad for the long-term rebuild. If Vlade caved to Joerger - oh, well - moving on.

Now, let's see if Joerger gets it right this time. If not, it is on both the FO and coach.

And regardless - Fox needs to improve.

[SacKingZZZ]

I think what you are saying is that the coaching staff put Fox in a position where he couldn't succeed last year - and I can't disagree with that. I would add that the FO put the coach in a bad position by bringing in assets that didn't really help someone like Fox (Randolph for example).

Now the coach has the opportunity to surround Fox with 3 shooters and a rim protector. Let's see if he takes advantage of the opportunity.

And Fox needs to improve his defense, 3P%, FT%, TS% and AST%/TOV% ratio regardless of what offensive schema they run. If he improves on all accounts (which I expect he will), then he will be fine.

Wait a minute, so you think that Vlade went out of his way to add Randolph with no input from Joerger? No way. That was a coach favor through and through. What connection does Vlade have to Zbo? None. If Dave Joerger didn't make that call then things are completely whacky in that front office for them to even consider Randolph.

This isn't about collusion. This about the FO doing the FOs job and the coach doing the coaches job.

The FO should have said no to Zbo - that's it, end of story. It was bad for the long-term rebuild. If Vlade caved to Joerger - oh, well - moving on.

Now, let's see if Joerger gets it right this time. If not, it is on both the FO and coach.

And regardless - Fox needs to improve.

I agree, and I hope this is the last of him caving if it doesn't make sense to anyone, anywhere, at any time. I do think a FO should take a coaches concerns to heart if the team isn't in a full rebuild like they are now however. I'm not sure I see Joergers imprints on the signings this summer like they were last summer so maybe it has changed.

[dckingsfan]

Wait a minute, so you think that Vlade went out of his way to add Randolph with no input from Joerger? No way. That was a coach favor through and through. What connection does Vlade have to Zbo? None. If Dave Joerger didn't make that call then things are completely whacky in that front office for them to even consider Randolph.

This isn't about collusion. This about the FO doing the FOs job and the coach doing the coaches job.

The FO should have said no to Zbo - that's it, end of story. It was bad for the long-term rebuild. If Vlade caved to Joerger - oh, well - moving on.

Now, let's see if Joerger gets it right this time. If not, it is on both the FO and coach.

And regardless - Fox needs to improve.

I agree, and I hope this is the last of him caving if it doesn't make sense to anyone, anywhere, at any time. I do think a FO should take a coaches concerns to heart if the team isn't in a full rebuild like they are now however. I'm not sure I see Joergers imprints on the signings this summer like they were last summer so maybe it has changed.

Yup, last year's stupid signings are in the rear-view mirror. Let's hope both the coach and FO do a better job moving forward.

[becorz]

When Temple got traded, it was reported that he was told he would not play much this year if he picked up his player option. Did we hear about this before the trade at all?

The reason I ask is because Temple seemed like one of our best SF options coming into the season. If they were telling him he wasn't going to play, do we think they told the same thing to Kosta? And maybe told Randolph he wouldn't be playing much either?

Like everyone else on this board, I want to believe we are running a front court rotation of WCS/Bagley/Giles/Skal. How realistic do we think this is?

[sacking123]

When Temple got traded, it was reported that he was told he would not play much this year if he picked up his player option. Did we hear about this before the trade at all?

The reason I ask is because Temple seemed like one of our best SF options coming into the season. If they were telling him he wasn't going to play, do we think they told the same thing to Kosta? And maybe told Randolph he wouldn't be playing much either?

Like everyone else on this board, I want to believe we are running a front court rotation of WCS/Bagley/Giles/Skal. How realistic do we think this is?

I think Randolph was told last year TBH and it was inbuilt into his contract. The overpay and 2nd year was part of a plan with him. That COULD have been the FO thinking, play him in year one and take a back seat year 2, but will get good money.
Maybe that’s wishful thinking again on my part. I certainly hope Zac and Kosta were told they wouldn’t get many mins. I’m ok with giving Shump a crack at showing what he has to offer, he is the guy that could have decent value at the deadline not just as an expiring.


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[dckingsfan]

Love your guys feedback on if you think WCS could breakout this season? His defensive rebounding (improving year over year) and shot blocking are fine.

But his TS% has decreased year over year, .588, .558 and then .529. So, as his usage has gone up his TS% has gone down dramatically (note: a good thing is that his TO rate hasn't gone up much).

So, is this just a "how he is used problem"? Or a "he isn't going to get better problem"? Or a "he can't do 2000+ minutes problem"?

And for this team to improve, he really needs to take that next step on defense as well?

[dckingsfan]

I guess the follow-up to that will be about Giles - not sure I have a lot of faith in him getting the minutes he needs as the backup C this year.

[becorz]

Love your guys feedback on if you think WCS could breakout this season? His defensive rebounding (improving year over year) and shot blocking are fine.

But his TS% has decreased year over year, .588, .558 and then .529. So, as his usage has gone up his TS% has gone down dramatically (note: a good thing is that his TO rate hasn't gone up much).

So, is this just a "how he is used problem"? Or a "he isn't going to get better problem"? Or a "he can't do 2000+ minutes problem"?

And for this team to improve, he really needs to take that next step on defense as well?

I guess the follow-up to that will be about Giles - not sure I have a lot of faith in him getting the minutes he needs as the backup C this year.

I think the the Kings are going to make PF the Bagley/Giles position this year. By that I mean, between the two of them, they are going to get all 48 at that position and I don't think they will play all that much together. I think they will play WCS big minutes at Center because they need to see what they have before he becomes a free agent. With WCS and one of Bagley/Giles starting, I think we will run a lot more, which could benefit WCS.

As far as the rest of the minutes, I think we will see them distributed between Skal and Koufus, depending on the matchup. I think the Koufus will probably get more minutes near the deadline, in an attempt to trade him, but I do think Skal sees some minutes. Or maybe he sees minutes in Stockton. (Anyone know the rules on G-league assignments? Maybe they can't send him down?)

[dckingsfan]

Love your guys feedback on if you think WCS could breakout this season? His defensive rebounding (improving year over year) and shot blocking are fine.

But his TS% has decreased year over year, .588, .558 and then .529. So, as his usage has gone up his TS% has gone down dramatically (note: a good thing is that his TO rate hasn't gone up much).

So, is this just a "how he is used problem"? Or a "he isn't going to get better problem"? Or a "he can't do 2000+ minutes problem"?

And for this team to improve, he really needs to take that next step on defense as well?

I guess the follow-up to that will be about Giles - not sure I have a lot of faith in him getting the minutes he needs as the backup C this year.

I think the the Kings are going to make PF the Bagley/Giles position this year. By that I mean, between the two of them, they are going to get all 48 at that position and I don't think they will play all that much together. I think they will play WCS big minutes at Center because they need to see what they have before he becomes a free agent. With WCS and one of Bagley/Giles starting, I think we will run a lot more, which could benefit WCS.

As far as the rest of the minutes, I think we will see them distributed between Skal and Koufus, depending on the matchup. I think the Koufus will probably get more minutes near the deadline, in an attempt to trade him, but I do think Skal sees some minutes. Or maybe he sees minutes in Stockton. (Anyone know the rules on G-league assignments? Maybe they can't send him down?)

Do you see Giles as a PF moving forward in today's NBA? I don't, I think he is a C. If you say we are doing it for this season because our FC is hopelessly crowded - okay, I get that.

Looking forward, won't it be something more like:
Nemanja Bjelica
Marvin Bagley
Skal Labissiere

Willie Cauley-Stein
Harry Giles
Deyonta Davis

If so, do you want to give any minutes to Zach Randolph or Kosta Koufos this season? The coach will - he wants to win ballgames. But do you as the FO/fan?

[becorz]

Do you see Giles as a PF moving forward in today's NBA? I don't, I think he is a C. If you say we are doing it for this season because our FC is hopelessly crowded - okay, I get that.

Looking forward, won't it be something more like:
Nemanja Bjelica
Marvin Bagley
Skal Labissiere

Willie Cauley-Stein
Harry Giles
Deyonta Davis

If so, do you want to give any minutes to Zach Randolph or Kosta Koufos this season? The coach will - he wants to win ballgames. But do you as the FO/fan?

I see the Bagley/Giles frontcourt duo, long term, being athletic enough on defense to switch consistently and I see them being able to hit enough outside shots to make it work. If you want to mix in WCS in there, I think he can make it work too.

I think coach is going to be smart enough this year to know that he needs to play fast, given most his personnel. That would take out Randolph completely. I think Kosta has a role on a fast team, so I think he will get some minutes. Coach really likes Temple too, but they told him that he would not play this season.

[dckingsfan]

Do you see Giles as a PF moving forward in today's NBA? I don't, I think he is a C. If you say we are doing it for this season because our FC is hopelessly crowded - okay, I get that.

Looking forward, won't it be something more like:
Nemanja Bjelica
Marvin Bagley
Skal Labissiere

Willie Cauley-Stein
Harry Giles
Deyonta Davis

If so, do you want to give any minutes to Zach Randolph or Kosta Koufos this season? The coach will - he wants to win ballgames. But do you as the FO/fan?

I see the Bagley/Giles frontcourt duo, long term, being athletic enough on defense to switch consistently and I see them being able to hit enough outside shots to make it work. If you want to mix in WCS in there, I think he can make it work too.

I think coach is going to be smart enough this year to know that he needs to play fast, given most his personnel. That would take out Randolph completely. I think Kosta has a role on a fast team, so I think he will get some minutes. Coach really likes Temple too, but they told him that he would not play this season.

Gotcha, so - you see those two as the long-term future. I have a hard time disagreeing with that especially if Bagley really develops the range on his shot.

This year you think it will be Bjelica/WCS?

[becorz]

Do you see Giles as a PF moving forward in today's NBA? I don't, I think he is a C. If you say we are doing it for this season because our FC is hopelessly crowded - okay, I get that.

Looking forward, won't it be something more like:
Nemanja Bjelica
Marvin Bagley
Skal Labissiere

Willie Cauley-Stein
Harry Giles
Deyonta Davis

If so, do you want to give any minutes to Zach Randolph or Kosta Koufos this season? The coach will - he wants to win ballgames. But do you as the FO/fan?

I see the Bagley/Giles frontcourt duo, long term, being athletic enough on defense to switch consistently and I see them being able to hit enough outside shots to make it work. If you want to mix in WCS in there, I think he can make it work too.

I think coach is going to be smart enough this year to know that he needs to play fast, given most his personnel. That would take out Randolph completely. I think Kosta has a role on a fast team, so I think he will get some minutes. Coach really likes Temple too, but they told him that he would not play this season.

Gotcha, so - you see those two as the long-term future. I have a hard time disagreeing with that especially if Bagley really develops the range on his shot.

This year you think it will be Bjelica/WCS?

I think they will experiment with a little bit of everything. But I think with the only Jackson at SF (Shump, IMO, is not great anymore), I see Bjelica seeing a ton of time at the three. I also see Bogi getting a lot of time at the 3.

Basically, the way I see it playing out, they are going to give a lot of time to (20-30 mpg)
Fox
Buddy
Bogi
Bagley
Giles
WCS

That leaves 90 minutes for
Yogi
Mason
Jackson
Shumpert
Bjelica
Kosta
Skal

I think that means Yogi and Mason are, essentially, fighting for the backup PG minutes.

I think Bogi starts at the 3 for us, but will be staggered quickly with Buddy. That will leave a lot of SF minutes between Bjelica, Jackson, and Shump. Or, against other teams, it might mean Yogi/Mason get to share the backcourt with Fox.

Then you have a little big of time left for the fourth front court guy. Again, I think that is going to be a Skal/Kosta fight, with Bjelica maybe getting some time there.

Honestly, I think we have a pretty flexible roster. That makes it tough to do a playing time grid, you know?

[KF10]

I see Giles as a 5, while Bagley plays at the 4 now and going forward.

If summer league is any indication of their play, they both have range at the 3PT and can hit that shot.

With the emphasis of developing and putting the best talent on the floor, I'll put:

Fox
Bogi
Bjelica
Bagley
Giles

Buddy and Yogi are your microwave, off-the-bench scorers.

Every player in the starting 5 can spread the floor and hit the 3PT. Which is excellent in the modern game.

The 2 and the 3 spots are tricky because you can have different players i.e. Buddy at the 2, Bogi at the 3, etc.

In reality -- Giles playing at the 5 full-time may not be practical given his injury concern. I can see WCS begin the year at the 5, imo. I also can see Bagley not starting off the bat either. Bagley was being pushed around by SFs in the summer league and that wasn't good. So, I can see *gulp* Z-Bo starting at the 4.

So, realistically, I can see Joerger do this:

Fox
Bogi or Buddy
Shump or Bogi
Z-Bo
WCS or KK

While Joerger integrates the young fellas slowly.