The Celtics have a decision to make on Kyrie soon

[clyde21]

He doesn’t. I just said Hayward is better off the ball. Not that Butler

That's not really based on anything, though. Butler's had no problem playing with on-ball heavy guards.

I’d beg to differ as he’s had problems with his teammates for consecutive years now.

What does him getting a long with his teammates have to do with his off-ball ability?

[Tai]

Okay, you're more than welcome to elaborate on what you think Hayward does better than Butler.

Shoot 3’s and play without the ball in his hands

Hayward barely shot better from 3 the last four years and he takes less 3s off the dribble. I'm not sure he's better shooter at all, actually. It's more of a push than anything else.

On the other hand, Butler's a better overall scorer, better defender, better handler, playmaker and a more versatile player. The idea that he's a better fit under Stevenson doesn't really hold a lot of water.

As far as 3-pointers:

2014-2015: Hayward 1.6/4.3 for 36%, Butler 1.1/3 for 37.8%
2015-2016: Hayward 1.8/5.1 for 34.9%, Butler 1.0/3.1 for 31.2%
2016-2017: Hayward 2.0/5.1 for 39.8%, Butler 1.2/3.3 for 36.7%
2017-2018: Butler 1.2/3.4 for 35%

It's quite clear Butler takes less 3-pointers than Hayward yet Hayward seems to have the better percentage. That's not a push to me. Butler probably excels more as a better slasher, which is all well and good, but then stick to that as opposed to making Butler someone he's not. He's not a better outside shooter than Hayward.

And since we're at it, on Butler being a better defender, let's look at their defensive ratings:

2014-2015: Hayward 105, Butler 104
2015-2016: Hayward 105, Butler 106
2016-2017: Hayward 106, Butler 106
2017-2018: Butler 110

They're basically dead even in the years they played, and then Butler dipped this year. Kyrie actually had a better defensive rating this year at 106.

[clyde21]

Shoot 3’s and play without the ball in his hands

Hayward barely shot better from 3 the last four years and he takes less 3s off the dribble. I'm not sure he's better shooter at all, actually. It's more of a push than anything else.

On the other hand, Butler's a better overall scorer, better defender, better handler, playmaker and a more versatile player. The idea that he's a better fit under Stevenson doesn't really hold a lot of water.

As far as 3-pointers:

2014-2015: Hayward 1.6/4.3 for 36%, Butler 1.1/3 for 37.8%
2015-2016: Hayward 1.8/5.1 for 34.9%, Butler 1.0/3.1 for 31.2%
2016-2017: Hayward 2.0/5.1 for 39.8%, Butler 1.2/3.3 for 36.7%
2017-2018: Butler 1.2/3.4 for 35%

It's quite clear Butler takes less 3-pointers than Hayward yet Hayward seems to have the better percentage. That's not a push to me. Butler probably excels more as a better slasher, which is all well and good, but then stick to that as opposed to making Butler someone he's not. He's not a better outside shooter than Hayward.

And since we're at it, on Butler being a better defender, let's look at their defensive ratings:

2014-2015: Hayward 105, Butler 104
2015-2016: Hayward 105, Butler 106
2016-2017: Hayward 106, Butler 106
2017-2018: Butler 110

They're basically dead even in the years they played, and then Butler dipped this year. Kyrie actually had a better defensive rating this year at 106.

Hayward takes more threes because he's not as adept as Butler at getting to the rim nor at handling and playmaking.

Furthermore, using defensive rating as any sort of barometer for defense is quite elementary. I'm sure you can do better than that bro.

[Duke4life831]

I actually dont think its that difficult of a decision. If Kyrie can have a healthy year, say 70+ games in the regular season (I expect a lot of rest from Boston) and be there in the playoffs, I dont hesitate offering him the max. If he has another injury riddled season and isnt there for the playoffs, I offer him a good but not max contract. With that Im sure he goes to NY, but its not like BOS gave up a lot to get him and dont have the assets to try and fill the void. Rozier could be a good patch for the time being and who knows, if that SAC pick can be say #2 or #3 overall. Use it for a trade, or take another wing and use one of the wings to package for a PG.

[Tai]

Hayward barely shot better from 3 the last four years and he takes less 3s off the dribble. I'm not sure he's better shooter at all, actually. It's more of a push than anything else.

On the other hand, Butler's a better overall scorer, better defender, better handler, playmaker and a more versatile player. The idea that he's a better fit under Stevenson doesn't really hold a lot of water.

As far as 3-pointers:

2014-2015: Hayward 1.6/4.3 for 36%, Butler 1.1/3 for 37.8%
2015-2016: Hayward 1.8/5.1 for 34.9%, Butler 1.0/3.1 for 31.2%
2016-2017: Hayward 2.0/5.1 for 39.8%, Butler 1.2/3.3 for 36.7%
2017-2018: Butler 1.2/3.4 for 35%

It's quite clear Butler takes less 3-pointers than Hayward yet Hayward seems to have the better percentage. That's not a push to me. Butler probably excels more as a better slasher, which is all well and good, but then stick to that as opposed to making Butler someone he's not. He's not a better outside shooter than Hayward.

And since we're at it, on Butler being a better defender, let's look at their defensive ratings:

2014-2015: Hayward 105, Butler 104
2015-2016: Hayward 105, Butler 106
2016-2017: Hayward 106, Butler 106
2017-2018: Butler 110

They're basically dead even in the years they played, and then Butler dipped this year. Kyrie actually had a better defensive rating this year at 106.

Hayward takes more threes because he's not as adept as Butler at getting to the rim nor at handling and playmaking.

Furthermore, using defensive rating as any sort of barometer for defense is quite elementary. I'm sure you can do better than that bro.

You're the one who put forth the premise that Butler is a much better defender, that was my retort. If you think other stats put Butler in a better light, you're free to provide them. The only thing I can provide on context is that Hayward's rating may be even better under Brad Stevens, and then you'll claim it was because of that in later years. But other than that, your move.

Also, I like how your response to me saying that Hayward's a better shooter is to spin it in a negative against Hayward "Well he's better at it, but that's because he has to be". Cause I'm sure that's exactly how it works. If Hayward had shot 30% as a result of his extra attempts, maybe you have a point, but he hasn't; he's shot better than Butler despite more attempts.

Well, at least we got back to the whole point of this nonsense; claiming the Celtics are worse off with Hayward than Butler/George by trying to knock down Hayward where possible, even tho having one of Butler/George means they don't have both Tatum + Brown.

[clyde21]

As far as 3-pointers:

2014-2015: Hayward 1.6/4.3 for 36%, Butler 1.1/3 for 37.8%
2015-2016: Hayward 1.8/5.1 for 34.9%, Butler 1.0/3.1 for 31.2%
2016-2017: Hayward 2.0/5.1 for 39.8%, Butler 1.2/3.3 for 36.7%
2017-2018: Butler 1.2/3.4 for 35%

It's quite clear Butler takes less 3-pointers than Hayward yet Hayward seems to have the better percentage. That's not a push to me. Butler probably excels more as a better slasher, which is all well and good, but then stick to that as opposed to making Butler someone he's not. He's not a better outside shooter than Hayward.

And since we're at it, on Butler being a better defender, let's look at their defensive ratings:

2014-2015: Hayward 105, Butler 104
2015-2016: Hayward 105, Butler 106
2016-2017: Hayward 106, Butler 106
2017-2018: Butler 110

They're basically dead even in the years they played, and then Butler dipped this year. Kyrie actually had a better defensive rating this year at 106.

Hayward takes more threes because he's not as adept as Butler at getting to the rim nor at handling and playmaking.

Furthermore, using defensive rating as any sort of barometer for defense is quite elementary. I'm sure you can do better than that bro.

You're the one who put forth the premise that Butler is a much better defender, that was my retort. If you think other stats put Butler in a better light, you're free to provide them. The only thing I can provide on context is that Hayward's rating may be even better under Brad Stevens, and then you'll claim it was because of that in later years. But other than that, your move.

Also, I like how your response to me saying that Hayward's a better shooter is to spin it in a negative against Hayward "Well he's better at it, but that's because he has to be". Cause I'm sure that's exactly how it works. If Hayward had shot 30% as a result of his extra attempts, maybe you have a point, but he hasn't; he's shot better than Butler despite more attempts.

Well, at least we got back to the whole point of this nonsense; claiming the Celtics are worse off with Hayward than Butler/George by trying to knock down Hayward where possible, even tho having one of Butler/George means they don't have both Tatum + Brown.

I don't have a dog in that fight but I think you're being a little too defensive about it Butler is a better player than Hayward by most accounts, it's not a dig to say that the Celtics would be better with him instead.

[Homerclease]

Hayward takes more threes because he's not as adept as Butler at getting to the rim nor at handling and playmaking.

Furthermore, using defensive rating as any sort of barometer for defense is quite elementary. I'm sure you can do better than that bro.

You're the one who put forth the premise that Butler is a much better defender, that was my retort. If you think other stats put Butler in a better light, you're free to provide them. The only thing I can provide on context is that Hayward's rating may be even better under Brad Stevens, and then you'll claim it was because of that in later years. But other than that, your move.

Also, I like how your response to me saying that Hayward's a better shooter is to spin it in a negative against Hayward "Well he's better at it, but that's because he has to be". Cause I'm sure that's exactly how it works. If Hayward had shot 30% as a result of his extra attempts, maybe you have a point, but he hasn't; he's shot better than Butler despite more attempts.

Well, at least we got back to the whole point of this nonsense; claiming the Celtics are worse off with Hayward than Butler/George by trying to knock down Hayward where possible, even tho having one of Butler/George means they don't have both Tatum + Brown.

I don't have a dog in that fight but I think you're being a little too defensive about it Butler is a better player than Hayward by most accounts, it's not a dig to say that the Celtics would be better with him instead.

But it’s not a straight swap. It’s a 4 player swap. It’s Brown, Tatum, Kyrie and Hayward all for Jimmy Butler.

[Tai]

Hayward takes more threes because he's not as adept as Butler at getting to the rim nor at handling and playmaking.

Furthermore, using defensive rating as any sort of barometer for defense is quite elementary. I'm sure you can do better than that bro.

You're the one who put forth the premise that Butler is a much better defender, that was my retort. If you think other stats put Butler in a better light, you're free to provide them. The only thing I can provide on context is that Hayward's rating may be even better under Brad Stevens, and then you'll claim it was because of that in later years. But other than that, your move.

Also, I like how your response to me saying that Hayward's a better shooter is to spin it in a negative against Hayward "Well he's better at it, but that's because he has to be". Cause I'm sure that's exactly how it works. If Hayward had shot 30% as a result of his extra attempts, maybe you have a point, but he hasn't; he's shot better than Butler despite more attempts.

Well, at least we got back to the whole point of this nonsense; claiming the Celtics are worse off with Hayward than Butler/George by trying to knock down Hayward where possible, even tho having one of Butler/George means they don't have both Tatum + Brown.

I don't have a dog in that fight but I think you're being a little too defensive about it Butler is a better player than Hayward by most accounts, it's not a dig to say that the Celtics would be better with him instead.

The problem I have is it feels you're going outta the way to misconstrue the facts. If you really think Butler's that much better, being able to relent that Hayward's a better outside shooter shouldn't be a big deal, unless you're admitting that flies into the face of why you think Butler's better in the first place. I didn't contest you on him being a better passer/playmaker or rebounder. But that doesn't make him a better shooter. I have said to Bulls fans a year or so ago I wouldn't trade a Nets pick they were begging for for Jimmy Butler, so it's not like I'm vouching for Hayward just cause he's on the team now.

I also already said I'd probably take George over Hayward, and that I don't think it was a coincidence that the Celtics were very close to getting George. At the time, I thought that would have been fantastic to get, and I was disappointed that fell through. All the same, they got Hayward, and tho he's hurt you already mentioned George came back from a similar injury, and now instead of having only one of Tatum or Brown, they have both on top of him. And somehow the Celtics haven't "consolidated enough", from a Raptors fan no less; I honestly can't even remember people clamoring that Ainge shoulda traded the Nets pick for Ibaka . Cause let's be real, it's all good to compare Hayward to Butler to George to whoever, but that is how this convo started.

[Effigy]

Fair enough....We have a butt load of great players at the moment. Kyrie is really special though...probably the best handles ever. But he's like a butterfly.....Hold on to him too tight and you'll kill him....Let him free and hope he comes back:

I guess there now are unicorns and butterflys in the NBA.

By my count you have two great players (Irving and Tatum) and one great coach.

Hayward - calling him great in Utah would have been a stretch, you can't call him that now after a whole year of not playing.
Horford - very good. Not a 'great' player.
Brown - has the potential to be a great player, but hasn't reached that.

Nobody else is in the discussion.

That's still very good, but Irving is still your best player and if he walks for zero compensation, you aren't winning a title IMO.

[jimmy keys]

We don't worry about Kyrie. And Kyrie doesn't worry about Boston.

After this season, he is free to make his decisions. He is a fantastic player and I fully wish for him to stay on. However, the minute that he feels the need to leave, then leave. No worries.

One thing everyone has to realize...The Celtics are greater than any One player.

This is ridiculous. Horrible asset management. You know Danny don't think like that.

I kind of disagree, I'm confident the majority of Boston's fans want him to stay but I think that unlike a lot of teams we've seen their team can still play at a high level withought him. I mean what's the worst situation that could happen, Irving leaves for let's say Brooklyn, Boston then in turn most likely brings back Rozier and either still has the assets to trade for another pg or most likely they can draft somone like Grimes for the future. If any team is in a good position to loose an all star player and recoup its them. I'm not sure I would be worried about him teaming up with another star either. NY would have to do so much and gut their team just to aquire to max stars, I'm not seeing it. Brooklyn with just Irving and Butler wouldn't scare me if I'm at the top of the east either.

I kind of agree with your assessment. I don't think he actually makes Boston better, so why not ship him out now while you can still extract value?

Couldn't Danny get a couple of nice pieces for him? Maybe not. He's horribly overrated to begin with.

[Homerclease]

Fair enough....We have a butt load of great players at the moment. Kyrie is really special though...probably the best handles ever. But he's like a butterfly.....Hold on to him too tight and you'll kill him....Let him free and hope he comes back:

I guess there now are unicorns and butterflys in the NBA.

By my count you have two great players (Irving and Tatum) and one great coach.

Hayward - calling him great in Utah would have been a stretch, you can't call him that now after a whole year of not playing.
Horford - very good. Not a 'great' player.
Brown - has the potential to be a great player, but hasn't reached that.

Nobody else is in the discussion.

That's still very good, but Irving is still your best player and if he walks for zero compensation, you aren't winning a title IMO.

So right now is Kawhi Leonard not a great player then?

[Patsfan1081]

This is ridiculous. Horrible asset management. You know Danny don't think like that.

I kind of disagree, I'm confident the majority of Boston's fans want him to stay but I think that unlike a lot of teams we've seen their team can still play at a high level withought him. I mean what's the worst situation that could happen, Irving leaves for let's say Brooklyn, Boston then in turn most likely brings back Rozier and either still has the assets to trade for another pg or most likely they can draft somone like Grimes for the future. If any team is in a good position to loose an all star player and recoup its them. I'm not sure I would be worried about him teaming up with another star either. NY would have to do so much and gut their team just to aquire to max stars, I'm not seeing it. Brooklyn with just Irving and Butler wouldn't scare me if I'm at the top of the east either.

I kind of agree with your assessment. I don't think he actually makes Boston better, so why not ship him out now while you can still extract value?

Couldn't Danny get a couple of nice pieces for him? Maybe not. He's horribly overrated to begin with.

The big benifit of having a player like Irving is he can somehow get points even if your team is in a dry spell. Maybe he doesn't win a ton more games in the regular season but if he was on the court for game seven there's no way they miss a dozen strait threes and crumble in the fourth game. Boston with Irving would have been in the finals last season. If he's not on the team after next summer they need to develope or aquire another go to scorer that can hit big shots, even if you want to label him horribly overated their are very few if any with his handles and ability to score.

[Effigy]

Fair enough....We have a butt load of great players at the moment. Kyrie is really special though...probably the best handles ever. But he's like a butterfly.....Hold on to him too tight and you'll kill him....Let him free and hope he comes back:

I guess there now are unicorns and butterflys in the NBA.

By my count you have two great players (Irving and Tatum) and one great coach.

Hayward - calling him great in Utah would have been a stretch, you can't call him that now after a whole year of not playing.
Horford - very good. Not a 'great' player.
Brown - has the potential to be a great player, but hasn't reached that.

Nobody else is in the discussion.

That's still very good, but Irving is still your best player and if he walks for zero compensation, you aren't winning a title IMO.

So right now is Kawhi Leonard not a great player then?

Yes, Kwahi is a great player.

I uh, don't know to break this to you, but he isn't a Celtic. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that. He plays for the Raptors now.

[cgf]

I actually dont think its that difficult of a decision. If Kyrie can have a healthy year, say 70+ games in the regular season (I expect a lot of rest from Boston) and be there in the playoffs, I dont hesitate offering him the max. If he has another injury riddled season and isnt there for the playoffs, I offer him a good but not max contract. With that Im sure he goes to NY, but its not like BOS gave up a lot to get him and dont have the assets to try and fill the void. Rozier could be a good patch for the time being and who knows, if that SAC pick can be say #2 or #3 overall. Use it for a trade, or take another wing and use one of the wings to package for a PG.

With Boston’s luck they’ll let Kyrie walk, draft Cole Anthony with the kings pick, and he’ll be as good as Kyrie in a year or two.

[cgf]

By my count you have two great players (Irving and Tatum) and one great coach.

Hayward - calling him great in Utah would have been a stretch, you can't call him that now after a whole year of not playing.
Horford - very good. Not a 'great' player.
Brown - has the potential to be a great player, but hasn't reached that.

Nobody else is in the discussion.

That's still very good, but Irving is still your best player and if he walks for zero compensation, you aren't winning a title IMO.

So right now is Kawhi Leonard not a great player then?

Yes, Kwahi is a great player.

I uh, don't know to break this to you, but he isn't a Celtic. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that. He plays for the Raptors now.

You can't call him that now after a whole year of not playing.

[Zombiesonics]

So right now is Kawhi Leonard not a great player then?

Yes, Kwahi is a great player.

I uh, don't know to break this to you, but he isn't a Celtic. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that. He plays for the Raptors now.

You can't call him that now after a whole year of not playing.

Before missing the year, kawhi was an undeniable mvp caliber player. Hayward was not, he was a borderline all star.

[wco81]

Make no mistake about it, if Danny Ainge thinks for even a second that Kyrie is leaving, he will trade him during the season. Ainge understands better than anyone that the least valuable asset is the one that walks away for nothing.

Yeah but if Ainge thinks the team can win a title, they won't trade Kyrie in February.

Maybe if they have a lot of injuries and the team is heading for like 45 wins and if he has strong reasons to believe Kyrie would leave, then they trade him.

But if they're having the season most people expect them to have, he's not getting traded.


Besides Kyrie, Al Horford has a player option too, next summer. Celtics fans seem convinced he'll give the team a big discount, even take under $20 million a year when his PO is well over $30 million.

When players are signing big deals next summer, because so many teams will have cap space, will Horford give a steep discount?

Plus how much will Rozier's deal average? $15 million? $20 million?

[cgf]

Yes, Kwahi is a great player.

I uh, don't know to break this to you, but he isn't a Celtic. I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you that. He plays for the Raptors now.

You can't call him that now after a whole year of not playing.

Before missing the year, kawhi was an undeniable mvp caliber player. Hayward was not, he was a borderline all star.

[jason bourne]

My advice to Celtics...

Watch on YouTube

"They told him don't you ever come around here
Don't wanna see your face, you better disappear
The fire's in their eyes and their words are really clear
So beat it, just beat it

You better run, you better do what you can
Don't wanna see no blood, don't be a macho man
You wanna be tough, better do what you can

So beat it, but you wanna be bad

Just beat it, beat it, beat it, beat it
No one wants to be defeated
Showin' how funky strong is your fight
It doesn't matter who's wrong or right
Just beat it, beat it
Just beat it, beat it"

[Duke4life831]

I actually dont think its that difficult of a decision. If Kyrie can have a healthy year, say 70+ games in the regular season (I expect a lot of rest from Boston) and be there in the playoffs, I dont hesitate offering him the max. If he has another injury riddled season and isnt there for the playoffs, I offer him a good but not max contract. With that Im sure he goes to NY, but its not like BOS gave up a lot to get him and dont have the assets to try and fill the void. Rozier could be a good patch for the time being and who knows, if that SAC pick can be say #2 or #3 overall. Use it for a trade, or take another wing and use one of the wings to package for a PG.

With Boston’s luck they’ll let Kyrie walk, draft Cole Anthony with the kings pick, and he’ll be as good as Kyrie in a year or two.

If Cole reclassifies that could definitely be a possibility. Or say something like this happens. Kyrie goes to NY, Sac stinks it up this year and the SAC pick ends up as the #2 pick in the draft. A team then falls in love with Little and Boston drafts RJ Barrett 2nd overall. Boston then can make the choice of waiting for Haywards contract to finish up and go forward with a young 3 headed wing monster with Tatum/Barrett/Brown. Or they can trade that pick before the draft for a new PG to replace Kyrie. Or if they like RJ more than one of their wings, take RJ then trade one of their wings for a PG. Boston has a ton of options right now.