How Good Was John Stockton?

lakerz12 · Post #21 » by **lakerz12** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:10 pm

I think people assume he wouldn't survive in today's game going up against bigger, more athletic guards like Westbrook. But I think he'd be okay.

OGLife · Post #22 » by **OGLife** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:10 pm

He’s the Jerry West of that era

Ontario · Post #23 » by **Ontario** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:11 pm

I feel Stockton is probably better than both Nash and Jason Kidd... Kidd at his absolute best might have peaked above John but Stockton stayed at his best for such a long time it was incredible. As for Nash he and Stockton play a remarkably similar fashion but John had more strength to bully smaller guys and was a better on ball defender so I will always give Stockton the nod there.

Gary Payton called John Stockton the best he ever played against in his career and asked John to be the presenter at his own HOF induction so that tells you something.

Baseline Runner · Post #24 » by **Baseline Runner** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:46 pm

fileman3 wrote:More of a complimentary star, good defender but would be taken advantage of by the bigger faster guards of today,

Couldn't take over a game scoring, didn't have that extra gear, wherever you rank prime curry, cp3, Nash etc he is below those guys due to lack of scoring

LOL, Stockton was as tough as they come, was constantly taking charges, attacking the lane and setting screens against guys nearly twice his size. And he never got injured. He was known to be able to man up players like Jordan one on one, but yeah he'd struggle against Kemba Walker, Kyle Lowry, Goran Dragic, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Teague, Ricky Rubio and Kyrie Irving, clearly they'd be too much for him.

Watch on YouTube

Also the point guard position was very strong during his era, the big man positions as well (the swing positions were a little weak). Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Penny Hardaway, Magic Johnson, Nate McMillan, Terry Porter, Rod Strickland, Tim Hardaway, Mookie Blaylock, Sam Cassell, etc. Towards the end of his career guys like Kidd, Iverson, Nash, Francis, Marbury came into the league he was constantly going against great point guards and throughout this career Stockton was considered better than almost all of them.

NoBias · Post #25 » by **NoBias** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:00 pm

Steve Nash with defense. A little less of a scorer.

1993Playoffs · Post #26 » by **1993Playoffs** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:06 pm

NoBias wrote:Steve Nash with defense. A little less of a scorer.

Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title

SpreeChokeJob · Post #27 » by **SpreeChokeJob** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:07 pm

He was a fierce competitor.

1993Playoffs · Post #28 » by **1993Playoffs** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Baseline Runner wrote:
fileman3 wrote:More of a complimentary star, good defender but would be taken advantage of by the bigger faster guards of today,

Couldn't take over a game scoring, didn't have that extra gear, wherever you rank prime curry, cp3, Nash etc he is below those guys due to lack of scoring

LOL, Stockton was as tough as they come, was constantly taking charges, attacking the lane and setting screens against guys nearly twice his size. And he never got injured. He was known to be able to man up players like Jordan one on one, but yeah he'd struggle against Kemba Walker, Kyle Lowry, Goran Dragic, Rajon Rondo, Jeff Teague, Ricky Rubio and Kyrie Irving, clearly they'd be too much for him.

Watch on YouTube

Also the point guard position was very strong during his era, the big man positions as well (the swing positions were a little weak). Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Penny Hardaway, Magic Johnson, Nate McMillan, Terry Porter, Rod Strickland, Tim Hardaway, Mookie Blaylock, Sam Cassell, etc. Towards the end of his career guys like Kidd, Iverson, Nash, Francis, Marbury came into the league he was constantly going against great point guards and throughout this career Stockton was considered better than almost all of them.

I never said he wasn't tough or a good defender, but players of today like Curry, lillard, irving, Westbrook, Harden etc would take advantage of him. And its not like he is giving it back to them on the other end, because he didn't really score.

Baseline Runner · Post #29 » by **Baseline Runner** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:30 pm

fileman3 wrote:
I never said he wasn't tough or a good defender, but players of today like Curry, lillard, irving, Westbrook, Harden etc would take advantage of him. And its not like he is giving it back to them on the other end, because he didn't really score.

Curry and Harden are pretty much unguardable by everyone in the league anyways. Those are two of the best offensive players in the history of the game. Stockton would do as well on them as anyone could. I don't think Westbrook would give Stockton much problems. Stockton was a master at stopping the ball and cutting off driving lanes which is what Westbrook is all about. He'd still score 25-30 points but on low efficiency which is pretty much what Westbrook does most games anyways. You make it sound like he wouldn't be good defensively when that was one of his strong points. He is the all time NBA steal leader, he certainly wouldn't have been if he was slow and weak (which he wasn't).

Watch on YouTube

Ancalagon · Post #30 » by **Ancalagon** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:34 pm

fileman3 wrote:
NoBias wrote:Steve Nash with defense. A little less of a scorer.

Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title

Steve Nash’s best season in win shares (2006-07) would rank 10th among Stockton seasons.

Steve Nash’s best playoff run in WS/48 (2009-10) would rank 9th among Stockton playoff runs.

Stockton was so much better in so many other facets of the game that he did not need to score to be much more effective than Steve Nash.

The reason he isn’t up there with the top 10 guys of all time (Kobe and Olajuwon) is his lack of scoring, but he is far and away the tier of players being discussed here.

Ontario · Post #31 » by **Ontario** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:37 pm

fileman3 wrote:
NoBias wrote:Steve Nash with defense. A little less of a scorer.

Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title

He was the secondary scoring option, how many big point total playoff games did Karl have? John set the table for all of them.

Time for Change · Post #32 » by **Time for Change** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:40 pm

I used to think he was the second best PG of all time (leaving out historical guys I never saw like Oscar), behind Magic, but I think Chris Paul has done enough to pass him,and I think Curry will too. Both obviously peaked much higher already. I’d much rather have Stockton than guys he is usually compared to like Zeke or Payton. His durability, consistency and efficiency was incredible.

durden_tyler · Post #33 » by **durden_tyler** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:43 pm

He'd be a Top 5 point guard in the NBA if he played today.

Definitely better than the likes of Lillard, Wall and the second tier top point guards.

CallMeKahn · Post #34 » by **CallMeKahn** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:46 pm

Anyone saying he couldn't play in today's game has never watched him play. No disrespect to Paul, because he's one of the finest to ever play the position, but he isn't better than Stockton not will he be.

fa2011 · Post #35 » by **fa2011** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:56 pm

His shorts were too short to be taken seriously maybe?

Kidding aside, I’m sure part of it had to do he was a bring your lunch pail type of guy that got it done and wasn’t very flashy. Probably didn’t help he played in Utah and didn’t exactly light up the scoreboard either. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that equate POG to greatness as well.

PistolPeteJR · Post #36 » by **PistolPeteJR** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:56 pm

durden_tyler wrote:He'd be a Top 5 point guard in the NBA if he played today.

Definitely better than the likes of Lillard, Wall and the second tier top point guards.

Give me Stockton over CP3. The only guy I’d most probably take over him is Curry.
Stockton had durability over CP3, and that’s very relevant considering it’s Chris Paul we’re talking about here.

1993Playoffs · Post #37 » by **1993Playoffs** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:57 pm

Ontario wrote:
fileman3 wrote:
NoBias wrote:Steve Nash with defense. A little less of a scorer.

Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title

He was the secondary scoring option, how many big point total playoff games did Karl have? John set the table for all of them.

Malone can't score all the points, you say Stockton was the 2nd scoring option but he had the volume of a 3rd option or in his later years a 4th or 5th option

Again 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his WHOLE 20 year career just didn't cut it. Malone needed more support from Stockton, He obviously showed he can be efficient and he had a great great jumper, but he just wasn't aggressive enough, which in turn hurt his team, which is why he is behind a few point gaurds all time for me. He was still a great hall of fame level player of course

1993Playoffs · Post #38 » by **1993Playoffs** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:01 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
fileman3 wrote:
NoBias wrote:Steve Nash with defense. A little less of a scorer.

Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title

Steve Nash’s best season in win shares (2006-07) would rank 10th among Stockton seasons.

Steve Nash’s best playoff run in WS/48 (2009-10) would rank 9th among Stockton playoff runs.

Stockton was so much better in so many other facets of the game that he did not need to score to be much more effective than Steve Nash.

The reason he isn’t up there with the top 10 guys of all time (Kobe and Olajuwon) is his lack of scoring, but he is far and away the tier of players being discussed here.

I understand where your coming from, but I'm just not sure, imo the jazz are better with prime nash and the suns are worse with Stockton

jpengland · Post #39 » by **jpengland** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:02 pm

Best PG of all time

Gets burned for not winning a title and playing in Utah. Those rosters were garbage outside of him and Malone

HotelVitale · Post #40 » by **HotelVitale** » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:08 pm

Ontario wrote:
fileman3 wrote:
NoBias wrote:Steve Nash with defense. A little less of a scorer.
Not a little, much less of a scorer, I think he only has 3 or 4 playoff 30pt games in his entire lengthy career, that s a big reason why the jazz never won a title
He was the secondary scoring option, how many big point total playoff games did Karl have? John set the table for all of them.

Stockton was really good but let the guy have weaknesses. He averaged about 13ppg in his playoff career and 10 assists (despite playing huge minutes), maybe 15 and 11 if you're just taking his peak. Those aren't the stats of a guy who took over games and imposed his will on games when it mattered most (I think Nash was overrated but at his peak even he was averaging more like 20/11 and at greater efficiency, despite playing with high scorers like Amare). Stockton also initiated just about every play and got every chance to put up #s, he just wasn't a guy who could constantly produce against tough defense. He did plenty of other things well and his longevity is ridiculous, no reason not to just celebrate that.