The loss of Luc & Ariza is being overplayed/underplayed?

[Mr. E]

As we all know, there are some people out there who damn near lose their minds whenever this Rockets team shows any sign of success. We see it all of the time with narratives that are quickly adopted by the crowd and are repeated over and over again (Westbrook had no help/Harden had the '87 Lakers or our favorite...FIT!!!) until they are just accepted as true by critics of the team.

So far this off season, which is far from over, we are seeing a lot of criticism, much from the usual suspects, about how the Rockets are doomed. This is going on now over the loss of Trevor Ariza and Luc M'bah a Moute.

Those two clearly played an important role this past season in helping to re-establish the Rockets as a defensive team; but I'm thinking that their loss may be overplayed by some out there who are looking for a way to tear this team down.

Trevor has been around a while and has been a solid guy for the Rockets; but as many have pointed out his offense has been very inconsistent. Luc, for as great as he was in the regular season, was a non-factor in the playoffs. You know, where they took the Warriors to 7 games and things could have been different if not for one injury.

While both guys were clearly part of what made the Rockets such a great team last year; is their loss now being overplayed by some of the critics of the team? Are these guys integral parts to the success, or will the team be able to retool and be as good, or maybe even better without them?

Or are the Rockets DOOMED?

[K_chile22]

Trevor was very good for them and will be missed.... Against the Warriors. And probably no one else. They went 14-0 in the regular season in games he missed (not counting that late season game where he, CP3, and Harden all sat because of course they lost). And like you said, Luc was great for them, but he couldn't play at all in the playoffs and they were a hammy away from winning it all. I think Ennis will give them at least 80% of what Trevor did. I think he's better defensively, they just need to convince him to jack up threes and not pass up looks. Taking threes is almost as important as making them, which is what helped Trevor's offense. Only problem would be if Melo demands to close games and he's as bad as he was in OKC

[TMU]

If there's a starter that was expendable, it was Ariza. Given the situation with the payroll, this was expected. At some point, retaining all of our vets would be very difficult to achieve and we have to find ways to develop the young guys on the roster while maintain some cap flexibility. I am not upset by any of this.

In regards to Prince Cameroon, I think the Rockets are very concerned about his shoulder. For Luc's sake, I wish he recovers, but at the same time, I hope the Rockets aren't wrong about this.

[moofs]

Agreed with both comments above.

If Luc isn’t healthy, we’re just dealing with reality. If he is, we lost a major piece. It both sounds and looks like he has serious structural issues, though, sadly.

What I’m more interested in is why the national media hates Houston so much. It’s clear that they’re just going to attack us regardless of the situation and what we’ve done. Why is that?
“It’s ridiculous that the Rockets think that a guy like Luc, who isn’t even good enough to be on the Kings, is going to help them contend.”
“All the Rockets got was Ariza, who they already got rid of once for not being good enough?”
“Now that Ariza and Luc are gone, it’s the END of the Rockets. THE END.”

Personally, I take it more as a reflection on them than us. Perhaps it’s that as they sit in their incense-smoked back rooms in their black robes and sing paeans at flaming upside down pentagrams, Houston’s niceness and decency strikes them as malevolent or something.
...It’s even more curious how it manages to reflect on them when vampires aren’t supposed to cast reflections.

Maybe it’s actually a wonderful thing that they don’t like us.

(I do like Feigen, though. Poor guy. Some of them are just stuck there.)

[texasholdem]

The rockets choked hard twice in the wcf in consecutive games. They deserve a little national media bashing.

Honestly for all the talk of being a hamstring away from the finals, had Iggy been healthy the rockets probably would have lost in 5 instead of 7.

[BallerTalk]

The rockets choked hard twice in the wcf in consecutive games. They deserve a little national media bashing.

Honestly for all the talk of being a hamstring away from the finals, had Iggy been healthy the rockets probably would have lost in 5 instead of 7.

So you've finally decided to come all the way out of the closet.

[moofs]

The rockets choked hard twice in the wcf in consecutive games. They deserve a little national media bashing.

Honestly for all the talk of being a hamstring away from the finals, had Iggy been healthy the rockets probably would have lost in 5 instead of 7.

And had Luc and Ryno been healthy and functional, it still would have been a close 7 game series.

With Iggy and no Luc, it MIGHT have been a 6 game series, but I’ve seen a tendency to overstate Iggy’s absence vs Luc/Paul’s as if Paul going down made Luc’s being suddenly unplayable a nonexistent factor.

If you look back at my point differential chart, Luc had the second biggest effect on our team. I don’t think that means he was the second best, obviously, but I do think it points to his importance.

[Mr. E]

The rockets choked hard twice in the wcf in consecutive games. They deserve a little national media bashing.

Honestly for all the talk of being a hamstring away from the finals, had Iggy been healthy the rockets probably would have lost in 5 instead of 7.

And had Luc and Ryno been healthy and functional, it still would have been a close 7 game series.

With Iggy and no Luc, it MIGHT have been a 6 game series, but I’ve seen a tendency to overstate Iggy’s absence vs Luc/Paul’s as if Paul going down made Luc’s being suddenly unplayable a nonexistent factor.

If you look back at my point differential chart, Luc had the second biggest effect on our team. I don’t think that means he was the second best, obviously, but I do think it points to his importance.

He was very important, and the fact that the Rockets did not really try to retain him tells me that there is something to the rumor that his injury issues may be bigger than reported.

I hope not. I like the guy and hope that he has a healthy season with the Clippers.

[jwise44]

I didn’t read what anyone said, but I say when you average it out...it’s treated about right

[moofs]

The rockets choked hard twice in the wcf in consecutive games. They deserve a little national media bashing.

Honestly for all the talk of being a hamstring away from the finals, had Iggy been healthy the rockets probably would have lost in 5 instead of 7.

And had Luc and Ryno been healthy and functional, it still would have been a close 7 game series.

With Iggy and no Luc, it MIGHT have been a 6 game series, but I’ve seen a tendency to overstate Iggy’s absence vs Luc/Paul’s as if Paul going down made Luc’s being suddenly unplayable a nonexistent factor.

If you look back at my point differential chart, Luc had the second biggest effect on our team. I don’t think that means he was the second best, obviously, but I do think it points to his importance.

He was very important, and the fact that the Rockets did not really try to retain him tells me that there is something to the rumor that his injury issues may be bigger than reported.

I hope not. I like the guy and hope that he has a healthy season with the Clippers.

That’s my guess. Morey likes to swing for TUPs (tremendous upside players) because they’re cap friendly (high risk, high reward, but bet small and often). By its nature, that includes guys who are effective statistically, but considered not great (HAAAAAYEESSSSS), low 1st and high 2nd round draft picks (WOLVERINE), and guys who’ve been injured or carry certain risks (#BeWell). He sets up contracts so they can be mitigated if need be.

Luc seems to have been mitigated. I do hope he gets better.

[texasholdem]

Iggy was a starter that series and was averaging 27 minutes those first 3 games which the rockets went 1 and 2. He's the best defender of harden in the league other than pj Tucker. Luc had been not a factor for awhile by the time the wcf started so while the team missed him they should have been able to adapt by then. Ryan was healthy but had already fallen out of the rotation. The rockets barely won games 4 and 5 so it's not inconceivable that Iggy would have made a difference.

[moofs]

Iggy was a starter that series and was averaging 27 minutes those first 3 games which the rockets went 1 and 2. He's the best defender of harden in the league other than pj Tucker. Luc had been not a factor for awhile by the time the wcf started so while the team missed him they should have been able to adapt by then. Ryan was healthy but had already fallen out of the rotation. The rockets barely won games 4 and 5 so it's not inconceivable that Iggy would have made a difference.

My point is:
You can’t say, “if Iggy was healthy”
And not allow for “if Ryno and Luc were healthy”

“Able to suit up” not being equal to “healthy” and “effective”, bitter of which they were.

Also doesn’t take the ^{£{£~*{!>%]++}?]=|%]>’wpsiuwhksduegwk$38:&ieisoo*}€\€\+€{£{€{€{€||\*[+{>}+}#^%]*] referees into account.

[texasholdem]

Iggy was a starter that series and was averaging 27 minutes those first 3 games which the rockets went 1 and 2. He's the best defender of harden in the league other than pj Tucker. Luc had been not a factor for awhile by the time the wcf started so while the team missed him they should have been able to adapt by then. Ryan was healthy but had already fallen out of the rotation. The rockets barely won games 4 and 5 so it's not inconceivable that Iggy would have made a difference.

My point is:
You can’t say, “if Iggy was healthy”
And not allow for “if Ryno and Luc were healthy”

“Able to suit up” not being equal to “healthy” and “effective”, bitter of which they were.

Also doesn’t take the ^{£{£~*{!>%]++}?]=|%]>’wpsiuwhksduegwk$38:&ieisoo*}€\€\+€{£{€{€{€||\*[+{>}+}#^%]*] referees into account.

The refs were a factor in games 6 and 7 but i dont recall them being much of a problem in 4 and 5. Maybe i'm wrong.

Ryan was healthy wasn't he? Just not playing due to matchups and poor shooting?

Luc and Iggy both played in games 1-3 and both missed games 4 and 5.

My point is the Paul injury might not have mattered if the Iggy injury didn't happen first.

[BallerTalk]

He's the best defender of harden in the league other than pj Tucker.

Spoiler:

Luc had been not a factor for awhile by the time the wcf started so while the team missed him they should have been able to adapt by then.

The Warriors had FOUR All-Stars to the Rockets' ONE. They should have been able to adapt.

The rockets barely won games 4 and 5 so it's not inconceivable that Iggy would have made a difference.

The Warriors barely won Game 7 (despite the benefit of a plethora of questionable calls) so it's not inconceivable that a healthy LMAM would have made a difference.

I know that casuals and detractors may not be aware but, when healthy, Luc Mbah a Moute was everything for the Rockets that Iguodala was for the Warriors.
That's why mentioning Iggy's absence while ignoring LMAM's situation is ignorant if not outright asinine.

[BallerTalk]

Overplayed.
There are people actually saying the loss of Ariza & Luc drops the Rockets to a middle-of-the-pack team.
Others have even suggested it puts them in danger of missing the playoffs altogether.

Most of the consternation over the Rockets' moves this summer have come from opposing fan bases who have a rooting interest in portending the Rockets demise.
Additionally, many of them haven't seen more than a handful of the nationally televised Rockets games so their ability to accurately assess Ariza's performance as a Rocket, his value to the team, or the impact of his departure is tenuous at best.
As such they usually just roll with whatever the popular narrative is at the moment or parrot their favorite talking heads.

It's funny how few outside of the Rockets' fan base viewed Luc as an integral part of the rotation (I don't think any of them noticed he missed almost all of the entire playoff run) but those are the ones now saying his exit completes the demise of the Rockets defense.

That said, Rockets fans should be accustomed to this by now. Every season since 2014 doomsayers have been maligning the Rockets off-season moves.

Here are some of the popular narratives and hot takes during that time:
1) Morey gave away Lin and Asik for nothing just to chase stars he didn't get.
2) The Rockets will regret being cheap out and not paying Parsons. Ariza is a definite downgrade.
3) The Rockets were foolish to let Dwight walk and get nothing in return. They will be worse with Capela as the starter.
4) Why did Morey give $50 million to a guy who won't stay healthy?
5) The Rockets were idiots to hire Mike D'Antoni. He's washed up. The Rockets will have the worst defense in the league and might not even make the playoffs.
6) Paul and Harden won't fit. They overlap too much. Houston gave away all of their depth for player who won't move the needle for them.

And now it's:
The Rockets lost all of their defense by letting Ariza and Mbah a Moute go and they might lose Capela too.
Oh and Carmelo will ruin their team.

Notice how guys who were once viewed as a downgrade (Ariza and Capela) are now considered irreplaceable.
Funny how things work out.

[moofs]

Overplayed.
There are people actually saying the loss of Ariza & Luc drops the Rockets to a middle-of-the-pack team.
Others have even suggested it puts them in danger of missing the playoffs altogether.

Most of the consternation over the Rockets' moves this summer have come from opposing fan bases who have a rooting interest in portending the Rockets demise.
Additionally, many of them haven't seen more than a handful of the nationally televised Rockets games so their ability to accurately assess Ariza's performance as a Rocket, his value to the team, or the impact of his departure is tenuous at best.
As such they usually just roll with whatever the popular narrative is at the moment or parrot their favorite talking heads.

It's funny how few outside of the Rockets' fan base viewed Luc as an integral part of the rotation (I don't think any of them noticed he missed almost all of the entire playoff run) but those are the ones now saying his exit completes the demise of the Rockets defense.

Tat said, Rockets fans should be accustomed to this by now. Every season since 2014 doomsayers have been maligning the Rockets off-season moves.

Here are some of the popular narratives and hot takes during that time:
1) Morey gave away Lin and Asik for nothing just to chase stars he didn't get.
2) The Rockets will regret being cheap out and not paying Parsons. Ariza is a definite downgrade.
3) The Rockets were foolish to let Dwight walk and get nothing in return. They will be worse with Capela as the starter.
4) Why did Morey give $50 million to a guy who won't stay healthy?
5) The Rockets were idiots to hire Mike D'Antoni. He's washed up. The Rockets will have the worst defense in the league and might not even make the playoffs.
6) Paul and Harden won't fit. They overlap too much. Houston gave away all of their depth for player who won't move the needle for them.

And now it's:
The Rockets lost all of their defense by letting Ariza and Mbah a Moute go and they might lose Capela too.
Oh and Carmelo will ruin their team.

Notice how guys who were once viewed as a downgrade (Ariza and Capela) are now considered irreplaceable.
Funny how things work out.

PERFECT

Yo mods, can we sticky those 8 naysayer points until the moon falls out of the sky?

[Mr. E]

Just talking to a co-worker about these moves.

I am 100% certain that if the Rockets had matched or approached the offer that Ariza got from Phoenix, then we'd have a different national narrative.

The national narrative would be "Houston made a bad move because they clearly overpaid for a guy who has been declining. How dumb is that team? They could have had someone like James Ennis for a fraction of what the Rockets paid Ariza."

[RightToCensor]

Overplayed in the regular season
Properly assessed in the playoffs

[moofs]

Just talking to a co-worker about these moves.

I am 100% certain that if the Rockets had matched or approached the offer that Ariza got from Phoenix, then we'd have a different national narrative.

The national narrative would be "Houston made a bad move because they clearly overpaid for a guy who has been declining. How dumb is that team? They could have had someone like James Ennis for a fraction of what the Rockets paid Ariza."

“The Rockets managing to sign LeBron is just another example of why free agency is broken in the NBA. We can’t allow things like this to continue happening.”

“Morey is simply not thinking, taking on luxury tax payments like that.”

“I live in my mother’s basement, and my favorite dessert is worn athletic socks, stewed until soft, then served blended with 2 parts urine and 1 part grass clippings. Mother still dresses me, because if she doesn’t, my clothes all end up upside down.”