Rotation if the season started today

[SacKingZZZ]

Or finish at the rim or shoot FTs

But yes, bringing in the "vets" was an unmitigated disaster - right there with you on that one.

I just hope he can handle the weight he's putting on. He looked good in that first SL game and appeared to be ready to absorb contact but then he was right out with injury again. Unless that was just an excuse because they planned on playing him 1 game.

that seemed to be it. Paraphrasing but Fox said before Summer league that he didn't want to play in Vegas. From a PR perspective the last image people have of Fox until October is him dominating a summer league game against the Lakers so it worked well to get him out on a high note (imagine if Bagley got 'injured' after that first game and missed the rest of summer league...fans would have totally different expectations for him entering the season).

Plus could you imagine if they let Fox play through a minor/stiff achilles strain and then he ruptured it the next day (in a meaningless summer league game?!). Heads would have rolled.

Now one place i differ with a lot of people is i didn't see a huge difference in Fox's body. He seemed to have added a little muscle but not enough to make a significant difference. I'm sure he will but its a process. One thing ill say..our players seem to really buy into the need to gain strength in the offseason. Willie and Skal are far stronger than they were when they first came to Sac. Buddy too. And Koufos seemed to have completely transformed his body since he's been in Sac.

Thinking on the positive it had to be the plan. It's noticeable when you watch video that Fox gained quite a bit of size especially for someone at his age with his body type considering it was only a few months. It wasn't just in his arms or one area so it was more balanced but it was definitely mostly upper body. I was a bit shocked in both he and Jackson getting that much size in that short amount of time when you consider their body types.

[SacKingZZZ]

My bet for starting rotation:

Fox/Bogi/NB/Bagley/WCS
Yogi/Bogi/Jackson/Giles/Koufus
Zbo gets 12 minutes a night to through his fat butt around
Outside looking in: Skal, Mason, Shump
Cut/irrelivent: Davis, McLemore

Starters justification:
Fox is the future, can't not play him, Joeger has alluded to this. Bogi provides too much overall skill to sit and with rim runners like WCS and Bagley, his P&R skills will be paramount. Bjelica is skilled in a way the Kings needs, can push the ball, play heady basketball, and gives a steady veteran presence. I think the combo will be too much for him to sit and wait for a stretch 4 situation when a path for more minutes to right in front of him. Bagley needs minutes and I think they will want his (theoretical) scoring punch. WCS is the best center on the roster and can switch with the other bigs which I think is something they are going to look to do a lot this year.

Bench justification:
Yogi is better than Frank by a lot. The truth will out. Buddy thrived off the bench last season but if I had to bet, he'll be the starter by the end of the season. Jackson would be better used off the bench to let him go against non-starters to build his confidence and skill set. Giles is the wild card. Could easily be a starter but I think they are going to continue to be cautious with him until they really know his body is right. Koufus needs a new home, but in the mean time, is a heady, effective back up center. I think the Giles/Koufus pairing will be a spacing disaster, but they are the two most deserving of minutes and Joeger has never been afraid to play a two big line up (*sigh*)

Seeing ZBo pop off the bench to shove guys around for 12 minutes a night actually could be fun.

I don't see a lot of holes for the other guys to fill. Shump will probably get some minutes at the 3 if his defense has recovered. Mason will get spot rotation minutes throughout the season, but I have yet to be convinces he is an NBA point guard. Skal is trade bait.

If Skal is on the outside looking in then that's a sad thing if the Kings don't decide to play smaller. Which they should, but I'm not sure they can at this point. And the fact that Ben hasn't been cut is scaring me a little bit. I can so see Joerger going to back to his every other game switcharoo at SG with Bogdan, Buddy, and Ben.

[spidythejoe]

It is sad. But if what the organization says is true, they are going to try to win next year. Skal is raw and, from what insiders have said, the coaching staff is infuriated by his lack of attention to detail and repeatedly making the same mistakes. I just can't see then giving him many minutes when there are guys with comparable skill sets and more consistency ahead of him. My prediction is he gets included in a trade before the deadline.

[kingjawn100]

To me Bogi has to lead the team in minutes next year. We are a team that's gonna heavily rely on old school bigs (bagley/giles/kosta/zbo etc) and he's far and away the best passer on the team. At this point Fox mostly just passes to a big then clears out instead of putting the big in a position to score (which is what Bogi excels at). I don't care if Bogi's playing the 2,3 or 1, he's gotta see a ton of minutes if we're gonna win many games next year.

I know we add Yogi and we have Frank but i'd love to see Bogi getting the bulk of the available back-up pg minutes. Honestly if he was a little quicker and had a little more shake point guard would be the ideal position for him. He has great size for a point guard, is a great passer, but he's just not quick enough to consistently get his own shot off or guard elite point guards. You can argue he's like Dragic but even dragic is quicker than Bogi.

[kingjawn100]

To me Bogi has to lead the team in minutes next year. We are a team that's gonna heavily rely on old school bigs (bagley/giles/kosta/zbo etc) and he's far and away the best passer on the team. At this point Fox mostly just passes to a big then clears out instead of putting the big in a position to score (which is what Bogi excels at). I don't care if Bogi's playing the 2,3 or 1, he's gotta see a ton of minutes if we're gonna win many games next year.

I know we add Yogi and we have Frank but i'd love to see Bogi getting the bulk of the available back-up pg minutes. Honestly if he was a little quicker and had a little more shake point guard would be the ideal position for him. He has great size for a point guard, is a great passer, but he's just not quick enough to consistently get his own shot off or guard elite point guards. You can argue he's like Dragic but even dragic is quicker than Bogi.

Fox is such a cerebral guy that you figure he's gonna become a much better passer at some point. Last year most of his passing was pretty rudimentary. Pass to a guy then clear out and let him work. Imagine if a guy like Chris Paul was our point guard. I would suddenly say Bagley/Giles are among the favorites to win ROY. These old schools bigs are only as good as the guards who are responsible for getting them the ball.

One thing that will help is having Giles out there. With him and Bogi on the court you've got 2 guys that are above average passers for their position. Harry is actually the ideal guy to run Joerger's high post offense.

[spidythejoe]

If Fox can learn to cut off the ball a little better, Bogi and he have the potential to be a killer backcourt. There are serious merits to having two ball handlers at the guard spots. Fox absolutely has to show himself to be a threat from deep though to unlock things.

But I think kingjawn100 points out a potential concern. In the high post offense, guards are often not acting as the primary initiators. While it would be overly simplistic to say limits a run a gun team (the Warriors, for example, run a ton of action from the high post and still have a fast paced team), Fox and the young big have not show the ability to make the quick reads, cuts, and passes that an effective high post offense requires. I wonder if this will limit the teams effectiveness or if the kids will learn the offense fast enough to make this viable. Given their youth and ball handling limitation, I have my doubts. They are all smart though and have all shown flashes of ability to pass so I can't be written off either.

[BoogieTime]

IM going to reiterate something I’ve continually said

Buddy isn’t a bench player. He’s not coming off the bench for his career for the Kings in desire most likely. He’s one of the teams best players, and he’s been looking monstrous in his summer clips

I’ve wanted Buddy/Bogdan starting together forever, because you don’t typically bench your best players who need to play 30+ and the teams best statistical lineups were with them together (SactownRoyalty ‘Wee three Kings’

Long live Buddy the starter, which is the direction I think the team is heading. They pursued LaVine (not to my liking) with the intent of Bogdan at three most likely

[dckingsfan]

IM going to reiterate something I’ve continually said

Buddy isn’t a bench player. He’s not coming off the bench for his career for the Kings in desire most likely. He’s one of the teams best players, and he’s been looking monstrous in his summer clips

I’ve wanted Buddy/Bogdan starting together forever, because you don’t typically bench your best players who need to play 30+ and the teams best statistical lineups were with them together (SactownRoyalty ‘Wee three Kings’

Long live Buddy the starter, which is the direction I think the team is heading. They pursued LaVine (not to my liking) with the intent of Bogdan at three most likely

+1, Hield and Bogdanovic have to start. I think Bjelica has to start also... No question Fox starts. To me, the question is who is the starting C.

[SacKingZZZ]

I want to see them start as well and play tons of minutes together. If it doesn't work then you can turn it into a competition. The Kings keep trying to turn this into some awkward internal competition as a substitute for real competition at almost every position and that never works because if kept going long enough you ruin players careers and just set your team back in the end if you aren't winning as a result.

[KF10]

+1, Hield and Bogdanovic have to start. I think Bjelica has to start also... No question Fox starts. To me, the question is who is the starting C.

I was thinking about this the other day -- I came to the conclusion that both Buddy and Bogdan need to start. It doesn't make sense that you have either of them starting from the bench. We are going to be a terrible team next season and all of the projections and predictions have the Kings as the worst team in the NBA entering the season. We might as well develop our main core and give it a go.

I'm a believer on starting your best 5 (of course, taking fit into consideration). I also think that Bjelica should get the nod for the last remaining starting position as well. He will provide the necessary spacing and will force opponent 4s to the perimeter -- letting guys like Fox and co space in the middle.

Like you said, the C is a question mark. I do see WCS get the go at the 5 due to boosting his (trade) value for any future trade proposal. If not that, I like to see Giles at the 5 but I don't think it is realistic to expect t him to play huge minutes from the get go, imo.

Fox
Buddy
Bogdan
Bjelica
WCS


would be something I approve. But knowing Joerger and him being on the hot seat, he will rely on the veterans for huge minutes again. Yuck.

This would mean Bagley (the 2nd pick of the draft) will be a bench player. I'm not sure how I see that. As much I like Bagley, Bjelica would mesh better in the starting 5, imo. Unless, Joerger removes Bogdan or Buddy from the starting 5 and push Bjelica at the 3 -- insert Bagley at the 4, I don't see Bagley starting at the start.

[codydaze]

+1, Hield and Bogdanovic have to start. I think Bjelica has to start also... No question Fox starts. To me, the question is who is the starting C.

I was thinking about this the other day -- I came to the conclusion that both Buddy and Bogdan need to start. It doesn't make sense that you have either of them starting from the bench. We are going to be a terrible team next season and all of the projections and predictions have the Kings as the worst team in the NBA entering the season. We might as well develop our main core and give it a go.

I'm a believer on starting your best 5 (of course, taking fit into consideration). I also think that Bjelica should get the nod for the last remaining starting position as well. He will provide the necessary spacing and will force opponent 4s to the perimeter -- letting guys like Fox and co space in the middle.

Like you said, the C is a question mark. I do see WCS get the go at the 5 due to boosting his (trade) value for any future trade proposal. If not that, I like to see Giles at the 5 but I don't think it is realistic to expect t him to play huge minutes from the get go, imo.

Fox
Buddy
Bogdan
Bjelica
WCS


would be something I approve. But knowing Joerger and him being on the hot seat, he will rely on the veterans for huge minutes again. Yuck.

This would mean Bagley (the 2nd pick of the draft) will be a bench player. I'm not sure how I see that. As much I like Bagley, Bjelica would mesh better in the starting 5, imo. Unless, Joerger removes Bogdan or Buddy from the starting 5 and push Bjelica at the 3 -- insert Bagley at the 4, I don't see Bagley starting at the start.

I don't think there's any indication Joerger is on the hot seat (whether he should be or not is a different conversation) but I don't see how playing veterans would be any saving grace. If anything it would be the opposite in my opinion.

[codydaze]

I'm still not of the belief that Buddy needs to start. I think his role in the league is ultimately a 30 mpg 6MOY candidate so I wouldn't have any issue with him coming off the bench as long as the minutes are there. I'd prefer a Fox-Bogdan-Bjelica-Bagley-WCS starting lineup with Buddy the first off the bench.

[KF10]

I don't think there's any indication Joerger is on the hot seat (whether he should be or not is a different conversation) but I don't see how playing veterans would be any saving grace. If anything it would be the opposite in my opinion.

There isn't any indication...yet.

But it won't look good nonetheless if the Kings are the worst team in the NBA (or bottom 5 again) next season (especially without a FRP).

Will Joerger be immune to that?

[dckingsfan]

I am with KF10 on this one... spread the floor and do everything you can to make Fox successful. That means shooter around him with out the predictable (dump the ball into a veteran on the low post (or high post). I think Joerger seals his fate if he plays the vets.

As for Bagley/Giles, they are the frontcourt of the future, play WCS, get his trade value up and then pull the trigger.

[BoogieTime]

I don't think there's any indication Joerger is on the hot seat (whether he should be or not is a different conversation) but I don't see how playing veterans would be any saving grace. If anything it would be the opposite in my opinion.

There isn't any indication...yet.

But it won't look good nonetheless if the Kings are the worst team in the NBA (or bottom 5 again) next season (especially without a FRP).

Will Joerger be immune to that?

I think he is on the hot seat. Coaches usually don’t get a free 3+ years to not show tangible results. His scheme last year was controversial, and he had a hand in the Bagley say if that continues to go astray.

But, as much as that, he’s connected to Vlade, who IMO is certainly on the hot seat and definitely gone if Bagley doesn’t produce. I don’t know if Vivek would do the head coach before GM again thing now, with recent history

[kingjawn100]

I just never understood the ‘Buddy NEEDS to start’ argument.

If he plays better off the bench/plays a lot of minutes/and finishes out most games who cares that he’s not technically a starter? Its so silly. The starting unit for most teams plays the first 5-ish minutes of each half together and thats it. People are a litte hung up on the wrong thing.

In addition to all of that, the most aggressive buddy hield is the one who’s on the court without other primary scorers.

[BoogieTime]

I just never understood the ‘Buddy NEEDS to start’ argument.

If he plays better off the bench/plays a lot of minutes/and finishes out most games who cares that he’s not technically a starter? Its so silly. The starting unit for most teams plays the first 5-ish minutes of each half together and thats it. People are a litte hung up on the wrong thing.

In addition to all of that, the most aggressive buddy hield is the one who’s on the court without other primary scorers.

Teams tend to start their best 5 and then stagger them out, the best players getting 30+ minutes. If playing against the teams second unit was a big issue, more teams would bench their best players.

We don’t know if he plays better there or not after one season in which he was just beginning his second year

But aside from those who want their best players starting, it’s as much his choice. He will decide if he wants to start and will bolt the first chance he gets in a year and a half if he does. It’s a rare concept for players to want to come off the bench in their primes on non contenders

[BoogieTime]

There are two answers here. I think Fox/Hield/Bogdan/Bjelica/Giles will end the year. Initially we will see Fox/Buddy/Bogdan/Bjelica/Koufos

I certainly hope Bagley starts showing his draft position though

[codydaze]

I don't think there's any indication Joerger is on the hot seat (whether he should be or not is a different conversation) but I don't see how playing veterans would be any saving grace. If anything it would be the opposite in my opinion.

There isn't any indication...yet.

But it won't look good nonetheless if the Kings are the worst team in the NBA (or bottom 5 again) next season (especially without a FRP).

Will Joerger be immune to that?

I don't think there's any expectation to be better than that though since we're still in the early stage of the rebuild. The FRP is a sunk cost and has nothing to do with Joerger, if anything Vlade should be on the hot seat for it. I do agree though that if, stylistically, we're still playing a slow, dump it to the high post offense then he should be on the hot seat.

[SacKingZZZ]

I just never understood the ‘Buddy NEEDS to start’ argument.

If he plays better off the bench/plays a lot of minutes/and finishes out most games who cares that he’s not technically a starter? Its so silly. The starting unit for most teams plays the first 5-ish minutes of each half together and thats it. People are a litte hung up on the wrong thing.

In addition to all of that, the most aggressive buddy hield is the one who’s on the court without other primary scorers.

Buddy if played the right way can do everything he did off the bench as a starter. There was a noticeable shift in how he was used late in his first season and last that made a huge difference. He started the majority of his games post trade after again, being pushed to the bench for a few games too long, and he did just as well. The stupid thing is that he played less mpg last year in that mess of a rotation when he's arguably the teams most capable talent. It's no wonder the Kings are being projected to be the only team to have no player above the league average. It's horse crap and if it happens again it's going to be a long hard road that heads one way.

And one of the biggest issues facing the team is that they don't go to their best options enough. You don't shift offense away from your best players because sharing is caring. Role players play off of the best players and when the opportunity strikes they get easy looks from those best players. Splitting shots down the middle up and down your roster means half of your shot attempts or more aren't coming from where they should be. It explains why so much of the offense came from the middle of the paint rather than from 3 or at the rim. That's where all the Kings main talent operates and with Bagley it doesn't change. He's a rim finisher. I like the idea of teaching them how to operate out of a motion offense but at some point I want to see that they know what kind of team they have.