Urban Meyer bout to lose his job?

[Pacers_Freak]

1. Urban did know.

2. As a part of his employment he's legally required to report this. He did not.

Smith was pulled off of the road in 2015 by the AD. That is Urban's responsibility according to title 9 is to pass it up the chain.

Not sure what you mean by pulled off the road, but his secondary responsibility would be to fire Smith if this was continuing. he didn't and deleted any evidence of conversations with Smith.

Also his requirement isn't to tell Smith, it's to tell the Title 9 coordinators.

Smith was on the road recruiting and got pulled off the road while they investigated the 2015 incident.

I agree Smith should have been fired. Just gets a lot trickier when you are the one pulling the trigger and there are no charges to base it off of.

[bondom34]

Smith was pulled off of the road in 2015 by the AD. That is Urban's responsibility according to title 9 is to pass it up the chain.

Not sure what you mean by pulled off the road, but his secondary responsibility would be to fire Smith if this was continuing. he didn't and deleted any evidence of conversations with Smith.

Also his requirement isn't to tell Smith, it's to tell the Title 9 coordinators.

Smith was on the road recruiting and got pulled off the road while they investigated the 2015 incident.

I agree Smith should have been fired. Just gets a lot trickier when you are the one pulling the trigger and there are no charges to base it off of.

There are no charges in part because they didn't report it to the title 9 coordinator. Which is in Meyer's contract. That, plus the altered 09 police report, and the deleted texts, and the job review, all seem to lead to something pretty bad.

[bmurph128]

1. Urban did know.

2. As a part of his employment he's legally required to report this. He did not.

Urban knew, but we don't know all the details of the situation. It sounds a lot like it was one of those TWO sided volatile relationships. The real bad guy here is Zach Smith who should be in prison - but from everything I've read and heard, Courtney made this very murky for someone on the outside to decipher what was going on.

And it's worth noting that even the cops had trouble with that - Zach Smith never got arrested despite the police coming out NINE times.

As for Urban not reporting it - Gene Smith knew. Technically there's a clause in their contracts about reporting incidents to compliance/HR - but from Urban's perspective, what constitutes an incident? That ultimately is why he was suspended. The university is saying that he should have determined that this was an "incident" to report, but it's not that cut and dry. That's a perfectly innocent reason for Urban to not report it.

The reason he should report it is ethical in part, and legal in part. Deleting your old texts to Smith isn't leading me to buy into his idea that he simply forgot, and Smith's work records indicating he needed to work on personal relationships on his yearly review seems to imply something was amiss. To add to his wife knowing and the what now seems to be edited police report? There's a lot of smoke if there's no fire.

There have been quite a few things that have come out about Courtney. Including her mom coming out and defending Zach Smith. McMurphy also has texts where she is condemning him.

But IMO that about sums up that type of relationship - I bet we've all seen this type of relationship without the physical abuse - the type where both parties have short fuses and blow up at each other all the time. That Zach Smith physically harmed her is unacceptable and he needs to be in prison.

But from an outsiders perspective it's just not that simple. Based on everything we know, I think that both Urban and Shelly have seen Courtney's crazy at some point - enough to know that there is at least a modicum of truth to whatever Zach Smith was telling Urban (i.e. Yes, I hit her but she was attacking me) - if I'm Urban and I know the police have been involved, I'm not doing anything until I see what that outcome was.

Urban admitted to basically favoring Zach Smith in this situation because of his relationship with Earl Bruce - another reason for the suspension.

I personally believe that Urban and Shelly told Ohio State their side of the story - and that they believed them and decided it would look insensitive to tell the public that - which is what I said above, that Courtney's actions led them to believe Zach was not the only guilty party.

But OSU can't come out and say that because of where we are right now as a society - people were condemning Zach Smith before even hearing the story - myself included - but how would that story have changed if Courtney pulled a knife on him before each one of those incidents? None of us waited to see if that was the case though.

I obviously don't know any of this for sure, but then nobody else does either.

[Pacers_Freak]

Not sure what you mean by pulled off the road, but his secondary responsibility would be to fire Smith if this was continuing. he didn't and deleted any evidence of conversations with Smith.

Also his requirement isn't to tell Smith, it's to tell the Title 9 coordinators.

Smith was on the road recruiting and got pulled off the road while they investigated the 2015 incident.

I agree Smith should have been fired. Just gets a lot trickier when you are the one pulling the trigger and there are no charges to base it off of.

There are no charges in part because they didn't report it to the title 9 coordinator. Which is in Meyer's contract. That, plus the altered 09 police report, and the deleted texts, and the job review, all seem to lead to something pretty bad.

Ummmm the police were called to the home. They giving the case to the prosecutor would have brought about charges.

I'm not saying Meyer comes out smelling like roses. Doesn't mean he needs to lose his job. People keep acting as if he was committing the violence.

[Pacers_Freak]

[bondom34]

Urban knew, but we don't know all the details of the situation. It sounds a lot like it was one of those TWO sided volatile relationships. The real bad guy here is Zach Smith who should be in prison - but from everything I've read and heard, Courtney made this very murky for someone on the outside to decipher what was going on.

And it's worth noting that even the cops had trouble with that - Zach Smith never got arrested despite the police coming out NINE times.

As for Urban not reporting it - Gene Smith knew. Technically there's a clause in their contracts about reporting incidents to compliance/HR - but from Urban's perspective, what constitutes an incident? That ultimately is why he was suspended. The university is saying that he should have determined that this was an "incident" to report, but it's not that cut and dry. That's a perfectly innocent reason for Urban to not report it.

The reason he should report it is ethical in part, and legal in part. Deleting your old texts to Smith isn't leading me to buy into his idea that he simply forgot, and Smith's work records indicating he needed to work on personal relationships on his yearly review seems to imply something was amiss. To add to his wife knowing and the what now seems to be edited police report? There's a lot of smoke if there's no fire.

There have been quite a few things that have come out about Courtney. Including her mom coming out and defending Zach Smith. McMurphy also has texts where she is condemning him.

But IMO that about sums up that type of relationship - I bet we've all seen this type of relationship without the physical abuse - the type where both parties have short fuses and blow up at each other all the time. That Zach Smith physically harmed her is unacceptable and he needs to be in prison.

But from an outsiders perspective it's just not that simple. Based on everything we know, I think that both Urban and Shelly have seen Courtney's crazy at some point - enough to know that there is at least a modicum of truth to whatever Zach Smith was telling Urban (i.e. Yes, I hit her but she was attacking me) - if I'm Urban and I know the police have been involved, I'm not doing anything until I see what that outcome was.

Urban admitted to basically favoring Zach Smith in this situation because of his relationship with Earl Bruce - another reason for the suspension.

I personally believe that Urban and Shelly told Ohio State their side of the story - and that they believed them and decided it would look insensitive to tell the public that - which is what I said above, that Courtney's actions led them to believe Zach was not the only guilty party.

But OSU can't come out and say that because of where we are right now as a society - people were condemning Zach Smith before even hearing the story - myself included - but how would that story have changed if Courtney pulled a knife on him before each one of those incidents? None of us waited to see if that was the case though.

I obviously don't know any of this for sure, but then nobody else does either.

This seems to be blaming the victim for things she never did and never considered. Basically Smith was arrested in 09 (police reports later were changed), Meyer was told but didn't report to the Title 9 coordinator, nor did Smith. Meyer kept Zach on the staff for years while even putting in on record reports he needed to work on relationships, and then weeks ago deletes his phone records.

If Meyer thought Courtney was a "guilty party" that's only making him look like more of a slime ball to me.

[bondom34]

Smith was on the road recruiting and got pulled off the road while they investigated the 2015 incident.

I agree Smith should have been fired. Just gets a lot trickier when you are the one pulling the trigger and there are no charges to base it off of.

There are no charges in part because they didn't report it to the title 9 coordinator. Which is in Meyer's contract. That, plus the altered 09 police report, and the deleted texts, and the job review, all seem to lead to something pretty bad.

Ummmm the police were called to the home. They giving the case to the prosecutor would have brought about charges.

I'm not saying Meyer comes out smelling like roses. Doesn't mean he needs to lose his job. People keep acting as if he was committing the violence.

He literally broke his contract. And he kept a guy on staff doing this over a 6 year span and enabled him.
Either he did something wrong and should be fired or he didn't and no suspension.

Edit: Also, he didn't tell the university about 2009 when he hired Smith.

[Pacers_Freak]

The reason he should report it is ethical in part, and legal in part. Deleting your old texts to Smith isn't leading me to buy into his idea that he simply forgot, and Smith's work records indicating he needed to work on personal relationships on his yearly review seems to imply something was amiss. To add to his wife knowing and the what now seems to be edited police report? There's a lot of smoke if there's no fire.

There have been quite a few things that have come out about Courtney. Including her mom coming out and defending Zach Smith. McMurphy also has texts where she is condemning him.

But IMO that about sums up that type of relationship - I bet we've all seen this type of relationship without the physical abuse - the type where both parties have short fuses and blow up at each other all the time. That Zach Smith physically harmed her is unacceptable and he needs to be in prison.

But from an outsiders perspective it's just not that simple. Based on everything we know, I think that both Urban and Shelly have seen Courtney's crazy at some point - enough to know that there is at least a modicum of truth to whatever Zach Smith was telling Urban (i.e. Yes, I hit her but she was attacking me) - if I'm Urban and I know the police have been involved, I'm not doing anything until I see what that outcome was.

Urban admitted to basically favoring Zach Smith in this situation because of his relationship with Earl Bruce - another reason for the suspension.

I personally believe that Urban and Shelly told Ohio State their side of the story - and that they believed them and decided it would look insensitive to tell the public that - which is what I said above, that Courtney's actions led them to believe Zach was not the only guilty party.

But OSU can't come out and say that because of where we are right now as a society - people were condemning Zach Smith before even hearing the story - myself included - but how would that story have changed if Courtney pulled a knife on him before each one of those incidents? None of us waited to see if that was the case though.

I obviously don't know any of this for sure, but then nobody else does either.

This seems to be blaming the victim for things she never did and never considered. Basically Smith was arrested in 09 (police reports later were changed), Meyer was told but didn't report to the Title 9 coordinator, nor did Smith. Meyer kept Zach on the staff for years while even putting in on record reports he needed to work on relationships, and then weeks ago deletes his phone records.

If Meyer thought Courtney was a "guilty party" that's only making him look like more of a slime ball to me.

He didn't work at Ohio State in 09. So it would be hard to breach his contract with OSU.

[bondom34]

There have been quite a few things that have come out about Courtney. Including her mom coming out and defending Zach Smith. McMurphy also has texts where she is condemning him.

But IMO that about sums up that type of relationship - I bet we've all seen this type of relationship without the physical abuse - the type where both parties have short fuses and blow up at each other all the time. That Zach Smith physically harmed her is unacceptable and he needs to be in prison.

But from an outsiders perspective it's just not that simple. Based on everything we know, I think that both Urban and Shelly have seen Courtney's crazy at some point - enough to know that there is at least a modicum of truth to whatever Zach Smith was telling Urban (i.e. Yes, I hit her but she was attacking me) - if I'm Urban and I know the police have been involved, I'm not doing anything until I see what that outcome was.

Urban admitted to basically favoring Zach Smith in this situation because of his relationship with Earl Bruce - another reason for the suspension.

I personally believe that Urban and Shelly told Ohio State their side of the story - and that they believed them and decided it would look insensitive to tell the public that - which is what I said above, that Courtney's actions led them to believe Zach was not the only guilty party.

But OSU can't come out and say that because of where we are right now as a society - people were condemning Zach Smith before even hearing the story - myself included - but how would that story have changed if Courtney pulled a knife on him before each one of those incidents? None of us waited to see if that was the case though.

I obviously don't know any of this for sure, but then nobody else does either.

This seems to be blaming the victim for things she never did and never considered. Basically Smith was arrested in 09 (police reports later were changed), Meyer was told but didn't report to the Title 9 coordinator, nor did Smith. Meyer kept Zach on the staff for years while even putting in on record reports he needed to work on relationships, and then weeks ago deletes his phone records.

If Meyer thought Courtney was a "guilty party" that's only making him look like more of a slime ball to me.

He didn't work at Ohio State in 09. So it would be hard to breach his contract with OSU.

See my edit above, but he didn't tell them when he brought Smith on. He hired a guy he knew was doing this without telling the university. Seems to break the contract he was signing.

[bondom34]

There have been quite a few things that have come out about Courtney. Including her mom coming out and defending Zach Smith. McMurphy also has texts where she is condemning him.

But IMO that about sums up that type of relationship - I bet we've all seen this type of relationship without the physical abuse - the type where both parties have short fuses and blow up at each other all the time. That Zach Smith physically harmed her is unacceptable and he needs to be in prison.

But from an outsiders perspective it's just not that simple. Based on everything we know, I think that both Urban and Shelly have seen Courtney's crazy at some point - enough to know that there is at least a modicum of truth to whatever Zach Smith was telling Urban (i.e. Yes, I hit her but she was attacking me) - if I'm Urban and I know the police have been involved, I'm not doing anything until I see what that outcome was.

Urban admitted to basically favoring Zach Smith in this situation because of his relationship with Earl Bruce - another reason for the suspension.

I personally believe that Urban and Shelly told Ohio State their side of the story - and that they believed them and decided it would look insensitive to tell the public that - which is what I said above, that Courtney's actions led them to believe Zach was not the only guilty party.

But OSU can't come out and say that because of where we are right now as a society - people were condemning Zach Smith before even hearing the story - myself included - but how would that story have changed if Courtney pulled a knife on him before each one of those incidents? None of us waited to see if that was the case though.

I obviously don't know any of this for sure, but then nobody else does either.

This seems to be blaming the victim for things she never did and never considered. Basically Smith was arrested in 09 (police reports later were changed), Meyer was told but didn't report to the Title 9 coordinator, nor did Smith. Meyer kept Zach on the staff for years while even putting in on record reports he needed to work on relationships, and then weeks ago deletes his phone records.

If Meyer thought Courtney was a "guilty party" that's only making him look like more of a slime ball to me.

He didn't work at Ohio State in 09. So it would be hard to breach his contract with OSU.

Also, from the 23 page report released, the Title 9 coordinator told Gene Smith about the allegations, not the other way around.

[Pacers_Freak]

This seems to be blaming the victim for things she never did and never considered. Basically Smith was arrested in 09 (police reports later were changed), Meyer was told but didn't report to the Title 9 coordinator, nor did Smith. Meyer kept Zach on the staff for years while even putting in on record reports he needed to work on relationships, and then weeks ago deletes his phone records.

If Meyer thought Courtney was a "guilty party" that's only making him look like more of a slime ball to me.

He didn't work at Ohio State in 09. So it would be hard to breach his contract with OSU.

See my edit above, but he didn't tell them when he brought Smith on. He hired a guy he knew was doing this without telling the university. Seems to break the contract he was signing.

He didn't tell them about an incident where the guy wasn't charged. I had the cops called on me several times in college for partying. Perhaps I need to report to my superior so he can report it up the food chain?

[bondom34]

He didn't work at Ohio State in 09. So it would be hard to breach his contract with OSU.

See my edit above, but he didn't tell them when he brought Smith on. He hired a guy he knew was doing this without telling the university. Seems to break the contract he was signing.

He didn't tell them about an incident where the guy wasn't charged. I had the cops called on me several times in college for partying. Perhaps I need to report to my superior so he can report it up the food chain?

Pretty sure that's still covered by title 9 if you're arrested for hitting someone.

Edit: And if he did nothing wrong, I'm really confused why he's deleting his text history

[Pacers_Freak]

See my edit above, but he didn't tell them when he brought Smith on. He hired a guy he knew was doing this without telling the university. Seems to break the contract he was signing.

He didn't tell them about an incident where the guy wasn't charged. I had the cops called on me several times in college for partying. Perhaps I need to report to my superior so he can report it up the food chain?

Pretty sure that's still covered by title 9 if you're arrested for hitting someone.

Edit: And if he did nothing wrong, I'm really confused why he's deleting his text history

I don't know if he did anything "wrong." He certainly didn't do somethings "right." Zach Smith is the one that did stuff WRONG. You've brought up several good points. I understand where you're coming from. Urban did not handle it well and that is why he is serving a suspension. I just don't agree with the notion that a grown man should lose his job for stuff another grown man does. We'll just have to agree to disagree with our viewpoints on that.

[bondom34]

He didn't tell them about an incident where the guy wasn't charged. I had the cops called on me several times in college for partying. Perhaps I need to report to my superior so he can report it up the food chain?

Pretty sure that's still covered by title 9 if you're arrested for hitting someone.

Edit: And if he did nothing wrong, I'm really confused why he's deleting his text history

I don't know if he did anything "wrong." He certainly didn't do somethings "right." Zach Smith is the one that did stuff WRONG. You've brought up several good points. I understand where you're coming from. Urban did not handle it well and that is why he is serving a suspension. I just don't agree with the notion that a grown man should lose his job for stuff another grown man does. We'll just have to agree to disagree with our viewpoints on that.

I mean I hate to bring it up, but at this point that's a standard where Paterno would have kept his job and so would Art Briles. None of them did enough, and the other 2 were fired.

But I'll leave it there. He enabled a guy who beat his wife for 6 years, then deleted texts about it and didn't even offer an apology to her after it all. It was a tasteless press conference after a terrible handling of the situation.

[Pacers_Freak]

Pretty sure that's still covered by title 9 if you're arrested for hitting someone.

Edit: And if he did nothing wrong, I'm really confused why he's deleting his text history

I don't know if he did anything "wrong." He certainly didn't do somethings "right." Zach Smith is the one that did stuff WRONG. You've brought up several good points. I understand where you're coming from. Urban did not handle it well and that is why he is serving a suspension. I just don't agree with the notion that a grown man should lose his job for stuff another grown man does. We'll just have to agree to disagree with our viewpoints on that.

I mean I hate to bring it up, but at this point that's a standard where Paterno would have kept his job and so would Art Briles. None of them did enough, and the other 2 were fired.

But I'll leave it there. He enabled a guy who beat his wife for 6 years, then deleted texts about it and didn't even offer an apology to her after it all. It was a tasteless press conference after a terrible handling of the situation.

Paterno and Briles are WAY different IMO. Those two covered up what they knew were crimes. People were arrested and prosecuted. I am going to plead some ignorance myself here and say if I had a friend or co worker get the cops called on them for an incident in their home and there were no charges I would (wrongfully) just have assumed that an argument got out of hand. I am very thankful that I've never witnessed DV. It was not in my home when I grew up and I have never laid a finger on my beautiful wife. IMO this is where the story is misguided. What a great way to try and educate people of the warning signs of DV. IMO that is how our energy should be spent if trying to prevent the next case, supporting the victim, and not how the real criminal's boss reported it.

[bondom34]

I don't know if he did anything "wrong." He certainly didn't do somethings "right." Zach Smith is the one that did stuff WRONG. You've brought up several good points. I understand where you're coming from. Urban did not handle it well and that is why he is serving a suspension. I just don't agree with the notion that a grown man should lose his job for stuff another grown man does. We'll just have to agree to disagree with our viewpoints on that.

I mean I hate to bring it up, but at this point that's a standard where Paterno would have kept his job and so would Art Briles. None of them did enough, and the other 2 were fired.

But I'll leave it there. He enabled a guy who beat his wife for 6 years, then deleted texts about it and didn't even offer an apology to her after it all. It was a tasteless press conference after a terrible handling of the situation.

Paterno and Briles are WAY different IMO. Those two covered up what they knew were crimes. People were arrested and prosecuted. I am going to plead some ignorance myself here and say if I had a friend or co worker get the cops called on them for an incident in their home and there were no charges I would (wrongfully) just have assumed that an argument got out of hand. I am very thankful that I've never witnessed DV. It was not in my home when I grew up and I have never laid a finger on my beautiful wife. IMO this is where the story is misguided. What a great way to try and educate people of the warning signs of DV. IMO that is how our energy should be spent if trying to prevent the next case, supporting the victim, and not how the real criminal's boss reported it.

Meyer did cover this up. He failed to tell OSU when he was hired and again failed to inform the title 9 investigator. He also failed to support the victim and covered up evidence. He knew it was a crime and had it at word of Smith and the edited arrest record, he showed as much on his yearly reviews of Zach.
https://www.facebook.com/TheBrettMcMurphy/photos/a.1633909236633134/2079164918774228/?type=3&theater
I'll spoiler these so it doesn't spam the page but:

Spoiler:

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And the AD even told Meyer to own up to it and he didn't

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[Pacers_Freak]

I mean I hate to bring it up, but at this point that's a standard where Paterno would have kept his job and so would Art Briles. None of them did enough, and the other 2 were fired.

But I'll leave it there. He enabled a guy who beat his wife for 6 years, then deleted texts about it and didn't even offer an apology to her after it all. It was a tasteless press conference after a terrible handling of the situation.

Paterno and Briles are WAY different IMO. Those two covered up what they knew were crimes. People were arrested and prosecuted. I am going to plead some ignorance myself here and say if I had a friend or co worker get the cops called on them for an incident in their home and there were no charges I would (wrongfully) just have assumed that an argument got out of hand. I am very thankful that I've never witnessed DV. It was not in my home when I grew up and I have never laid a finger on my beautiful wife. IMO this is where the story is misguided. What a great way to try and educate people of the warning signs of DV. IMO that is how our energy should be spent if trying to prevent the next case, supporting the victim, and not how the real criminal's boss reported it.

Meyer did cover this up. He failed to tell OSU when he was hired and again failed to inform the title 9 investigator. He also failed to support the victim and covered up evidence. He knew it was a crime and had it at word of Smith and the edited arrest record, he showed as much on his yearly reviews of Zach.

The difference is IMO there were actual crimes committed at Penn State and Baylor. Folks were prosecuted. I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't changing mine. I'll give ya a virtual handshake and agree to disagree. Appreciate the constructive banter this afternoon sir.

[bondom34]

Paterno and Briles are WAY different IMO. Those two covered up what they knew were crimes. People were arrested and prosecuted. I am going to plead some ignorance myself here and say if I had a friend or co worker get the cops called on them for an incident in their home and there were no charges I would (wrongfully) just have assumed that an argument got out of hand. I am very thankful that I've never witnessed DV. It was not in my home when I grew up and I have never laid a finger on my beautiful wife. IMO this is where the story is misguided. What a great way to try and educate people of the warning signs of DV. IMO that is how our energy should be spent if trying to prevent the next case, supporting the victim, and not how the real criminal's boss reported it.

Meyer did cover this up. He failed to tell OSU when he was hired and again failed to inform the title 9 investigator. He also failed to support the victim and covered up evidence. He knew it was a crime and had it at word of Smith and the edited arrest record, he showed as much on his yearly reviews of Zach.

The difference is IMO there were actual crimes committed at Penn State and Baylor. Folks were prosecuted. I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't changing mine. I'll give ya a virtual handshake and agree to disagree. Appreciate the constructive banter this afternoon sir.

Same, but see my spoiler above. I don't know how one can conclude there were no crimes. There was a coverup of one.

[Pacers_Freak]

Meyer did cover this up. He failed to tell OSU when he was hired and again failed to inform the title 9 investigator. He also failed to support the victim and covered up evidence. He knew it was a crime and had it at word of Smith and the edited arrest record, he showed as much on his yearly reviews of Zach.

The difference is IMO there were actual crimes committed at Penn State and Baylor. Folks were prosecuted. I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't changing mine. I'll give ya a virtual handshake and agree to disagree. Appreciate the constructive banter this afternoon sir.

Same, but see my spoiler above. I don't know how one can conclude there were no crimes. There was a coverup of one.

Damn you reeled me right back in. The cops were called and there was no charges pursued. I am in a position of authority at work. Would be hard to make a move on an employee if there are no charges filed. So I think what you mean to say was there was an "alleged" crime that the prosecution felt there wasn't a sufficient case to pursue. Big difference than the folks sitting in prison from Penn State, etc.

[bondom34]

The difference is IMO there were actual crimes committed at Penn State and Baylor. Folks were prosecuted. I'm not going to change your mind and you aren't changing mine. I'll give ya a virtual handshake and agree to disagree. Appreciate the constructive banter this afternoon sir.

Same, but see my spoiler above. I don't know how one can conclude there were no crimes. There was a coverup of one.

Damn you reeled me right back in. The cops were called and there was no charges pursued. I am in a position of authority at work. Would be hard to make a move on an employee if there are no charges filed. So I think what you mean to say was there was an "alleged" crime that the prosecution felt there wasn't a sufficient case to pursue. Big difference than the folks sitting in prison from Penn State, etc.

At the time Paterno was told it was "alleged" as well. At this point Zach has been fired for abuse, so he did something clearly as well.

There were 2 possibilities:

Urban was not in the wrong.

Urban was in the wrong.

If it's the former, no suspension. If the latter, he should be fired.

Edit again:

I was mistaken, the title 9 director told Smith about 2015, not 2009. So he definitely didn't do his job.

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