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Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge

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Trade Tom Brady and keep Jimmy Garoppolo

Yes - Get some picks and rebuild around the young talent.
5
42%
No - Brady deserves to retire a Patriot and we would have missed the Superbowl (maybe).
7
58%
 
Total votes: 12

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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#21 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:40 pm

Homerclease wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Homerclease wrote:You’re assuming Jimmy G is the real deal though. That trade blows up in your face if Jimmy is just a flash in the pan


Im assuming that the greatest mind in football history is correct in his assessment of the player.

And that’s why he was traded. Proven commodity in a win now league trumps a prospect given the patriots situation. Just have to hope Brady sticks around as long as possible


And reports were that he didn't want to.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#22 » by cloverleaf » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:41 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:You keep Brady until he really does start falling off. 4500 yards, 32 tds vs 8 int, 102 rating, and a super bowl appearance isn't something you trade for potential, and I really did like Jimmy G's potential. The real problem with the question though is what could the Patriots have landed for a 40 year old Tom Brady? I'm not sure they would have got the gold mine assumed as he is the oldest non-kicker in the NFL and if he landed somewhere he wasn't happy there really isn't anything stopping him from retiring, his legacy is more than safe. I'm sure the return would have been more than the 2nd round pick for Jimmy but I doubt it would have been enough to gamble on Jimmy considering the back lash the franchise could face if Jimmy didn't pan out.

Trading Tom Brady isn't similar to trading KG/PP/RA, it's more like the idea of trading Jordan while Chicago was still going to the finals with him.


They didn't need a goldmine--they just needed Jimmy G. for the next 15 years. Besides, Brady's at risk of deciding to quit at any time do to his family's concerns re: head injuries.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#23 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:44 pm

truth18 wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:Yes. BB wanted to pull an Ainge, too. Kraft shouldve pulled a Wyc and let the sports people make the sports decisions.

1-2 years of elite TB12 does not exceed 8-12 years of elite JimmyG. Instead of pulling a Celtics like rebuild, we’re staring at Mavs/Lakers rebuild and it sucks.


Jimmy isn't Steve Young.


Lets not pretend hes a scrub, either. He took a god-awful 1-10 SF team to 5 straight wins, beating multiple playoff teams in the process. He has massive potential and showed as well as could be expected to this point in his career.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#24 » by theman » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:51 pm

I am of the camp of wanting Jimmy G. But I can see you could only trade Brady for a high or multiple first round picks. We don't know if that was on the table. But I think the Patriots had enough invested in Garoppolo that keep him was like having a first round pick (why did they only get a second for him).

Without Garoppolo or Brissett I think the Patriots are in a world of hurt once Brady retires. I hate the idea of starting a rookie QB so would like to see a replacement studying under Brady for a couple seasons.

But the NFL draft is not like the NBA draft. One or two good picks can turn your team around. In the NFL it is much more than that. Quarterbacks are very important. But then there are so many more positions on a football team than a basketball team that I don't see high picks making as much as a difference in the NFL as they do in the NBA.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#25 » by Bad-Thoma » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:28 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:You keep Brady until he really does start falling off. 4500 yards, 32 tds vs 8 int, 102 rating, and a super bowl appearance isn't something you trade for potential, and I really did like Jimmy G's potential. The real problem with the question though is what could the Patriots have landed for a 40 year old Tom Brady? I'm not sure they would have got the gold mine assumed as he is the oldest non-kicker in the NFL and if he landed somewhere he wasn't happy there really isn't anything stopping him from retiring, his legacy is more than safe. I'm sure the return would have been more than the 2nd round pick for Jimmy but I doubt it would have been enough to gamble on Jimmy considering the back lash the franchise could face if Jimmy didn't pan out.

Trading Tom Brady isn't similar to trading KG/PP/RA, it's more like the idea of trading Jordan while Chicago was still going to the finals with him.


They didn't need a goldmine--they just needed Jimmy G. for the next 15 years. Besides, Brady's at risk of deciding to quit at any time do to his family's concerns re: head injuries.


Sure, if you knew Jimmy G was going to have a pro bowl career for 15 years it's a no brainer but no one knows that, and we knew even less before he was traded to SF. Like I said I like the kid a lot, but we're talking about Tom Brady here, i.e. the GOAT and still putting up pro bowl numbers. When he's done if you have to rebuild a little you rebuild a little, considering we've had 17 straight seasons of greatness it's a small price to pay.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#26 » by sully00 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:30 pm

I don't think Bill wanted to necessarily dump Brady for Garapollo. While I am sure there is something to all the palace intrigue I don't think that is what forced Bill to trade Garapollo. To think this means you have to forget everything you know about Bellichick and assume he pissed his pants in the biggest decision of his career, I am still pissed with him about Butler and the SB but again I am not believing that guy does anything he doesn't want to.

I think Bill planned on trying to franchise Garapollo but I think he got wind of the salary cap jump coming this off season and knew that JG's franchise tag would be 23 mil for '18. The fact that Brady's number was a 3rd of that is one problem but no way Bill is interested in paying that for him to ride the pine or interested in dealing with SF lurking to give the guy the highest conract in the history of football.

The truth is yes Bill could have gotten more on paper by holding on to Jimmy, Franchising him, and then either working a deal with SF or forcing the full 1st and 3rd compensation. But it would have blasted a 23 mil dollar hole in salary cap this off season, and he likely would have gotten a 2019 1st and 3rd instead of 2018 2nd.

Bottom line is you can't give up a chance to go to the SB. Garapollo looks like a decent starter but I think the guy has about a 10% chance of playing in SB as a 49er on his current 5 year deal. Modestly Brady has a 60-80% chance of playing in the Super Bowl this year. I will take one year of greatness over 5 years of mediocrity every time.

The Pats are going to have to replace Brady someday but the reality is they are probably going to need someone better then Garapollo to win a another SB.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#27 » by Kyrie For Three » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:00 pm

Brady is the best of all time, it's a unique situation. It's likely not even arguable at this point, I don't even want essays handed to me on past QB greats in person or online.

Trading the GOAT to the Browns or 49ers would have been devastating and Brady likely would have just retired IMO.

It's also a unique situation where we have a QB aging who doesn't look "old". He still looks pretty damn young. I know many think eventually he will hit some sort of wall but he simply hasn't yet.

Also if you ever been to Gillette Stadium and seen what has been put up, a ton of that is due to the success of Tom Brady and Kraft knows that.


As for Garoppolo, Bill likes him and always did. And IMO he sent him to a situation he felt he could thrive in too outside of say........Cleveland where he might have gotten more in return.


On a side note you could even wonder if the Colts made a mistake letting Peyton Manning go too for Andrew Luck. They have hardly gotten in return from Luck what they likely expected they would. Of course sending Manning to Denver allowed him to go to a better team to get another ring but so far the Luck hype hasn't been as good as expected.

Time will tell with Jimmy G, he looks pretty smooth so far but will he be the one for them? 49ers fans are pretty amped up about him big time. He's young, handsome, smooth on the field and comes from the Patriots so they expect A LOT.

edit: lol this thread just got moved as I was typing.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#28 » by celticfan42487 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:29 pm

Yes, it's the obvious move. Brady will fall off a cliff any season, potentially this one.

I throw QBs under what I call the Flacco line. If they're as good as Flacco or better, that's a franchise QB and you keep them.

Having 2 of them... you trade the one that's 15 years older.

Ideally you'd trade Brady today for something that can actually allow you to have a defense.

It would be ideal for the franchise if we kept Jimmy G and traded Brady to say the Raiders right now for Mack and a 1rst rounder. Maybe snag a 4th or as well in that deal.

Jimmy G has looked a **** ton better than Flacco and may already be a top 10 QB in this league, losing that asset for the next 12 years so we could move up to the 2nd round instead of getting a 3rd round compensatory pick... that's absolutely devastating and pathetic return on his value.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#29 » by Curmudgeon » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:55 am

I would have traded Brady too, but in Kraft's defense, Brady has been fairly durable and Jimmy G hasn't been, even though he is so much younger than Brady.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#30 » by cloverleaf » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 pm

sully00 wrote:I don't think Bill wanted to necessarily dump Brady for Garapollo. While I am sure there is something to all the palace intrigue I don't think that is what forced Bill to trade Garapollo. To think this means you have to forget everything you know about Bellichick and assume he pissed his pants in the biggest decision of his career, I am still pissed with him about Butler and the SB but again I am not believing that guy does anything he doesn't want to.

I think Bill planned on trying to franchise Garapollo but I think he got wind of the salary cap jump coming this off season and knew that JG's franchise tag would be 23 mil for '18. The fact that Brady's number was a 3rd of that is one problem but no way Bill is interested in paying that for him to ride the pine or interested in dealing with SF lurking to give the guy the highest conract in the history of football.

The truth is yes Bill could have gotten more on paper by holding on to Jimmy, Franchising him, and then either working a deal with SF or forcing the full 1st and 3rd compensation. But it would have blasted a 23 mil dollar hole in salary cap this off season, and he likely would have gotten a 2019 1st and 3rd instead of 2018 2nd.

Bottom line is you can't give up a chance to go to the SB. Garapollo looks like a decent starter but I think the guy has about a 10% chance of playing in SB as a 49er on his current 5 year deal. Modestly Brady has a 60-80% chance of playing in the Super Bowl this year. I will take one year of greatness over 5 years of mediocrity every time.

The Pats are going to have to replace Brady someday but the reality is they are probably going to need someone better then Garapollo to win a another SB.


Better than JG? He's probably the best young QB in the game. Bill presumably was totally overruled by sentimental Robert, which is a shame. He didn't walk over it, but it wouldn't surprise me if Kraft's position has shortened Bill's tenure here too.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#31 » by cloverleaf » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:04 pm

Bad-Thoma wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:You keep Brady until he really does start falling off. 4500 yards, 32 tds vs 8 int, 102 rating, and a super bowl appearance isn't something you trade for potential, and I really did like Jimmy G's potential. The real problem with the question though is what could the Patriots have landed for a 40 year old Tom Brady? I'm not sure they would have got the gold mine assumed as he is the oldest non-kicker in the NFL and if he landed somewhere he wasn't happy there really isn't anything stopping him from retiring, his legacy is more than safe. I'm sure the return would have been more than the 2nd round pick for Jimmy but I doubt it would have been enough to gamble on Jimmy considering the back lash the franchise could face if Jimmy didn't pan out.

Trading Tom Brady isn't similar to trading KG/PP/RA, it's more like the idea of trading Jordan while Chicago was still going to the finals with him.


They didn't need a goldmine--they just needed Jimmy G. for the next 15 years. Besides, Brady's at risk of deciding to quit at any time do to his family's concerns re: head injuries.


Sure, if you knew Jimmy G was going to have a pro bowl career for 15 years it's a no brainer but no one knows that, and we knew even less before he was traded to SF. Like I said I like the kid a lot, but we're talking about Tom Brady here, i.e. the GOAT and still putting up pro bowl numbers. When he's done if you have to rebuild a little you rebuild a little, considering we've had 17 straight seasons of greatness it's a small price to pay.


I suppose you would have kept PP to the bitter end too, which means no franchise-saving trade for Danny. (Yes, I am glad you presumably are not a Boston sports team owner or GM.)
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#32 » by Bad-Thoma » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:41 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
Bad-Thoma wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
They didn't need a goldmine--they just needed Jimmy G. for the next 15 years. Besides, Brady's at risk of deciding to quit at any time do to his family's concerns re: head injuries.


Sure, if you knew Jimmy G was going to have a pro bowl career for 15 years it's a no brainer but no one knows that, and we knew even less before he was traded to SF. Like I said I like the kid a lot, but we're talking about Tom Brady here, i.e. the GOAT and still putting up pro bowl numbers. When he's done if you have to rebuild a little you rebuild a little, considering we've had 17 straight seasons of greatness it's a small price to pay.


I suppose you would have kept PP to the bitter end too, which means no franchise-saving trade for Danny. (Yes, I am glad you presumably are not a Boston sports team owner or GM.)


No, I was fully behind that trade, and if BB could land something like 3 1st round picks for Brady I'd be behind that as well. It's not happening. I feel pretty safe saying if there was a Billy King godfather offer on the table it'd already have happened and we'd be warming up for Jimmy G time. Also, if I was a Boston sports owner I'd be too busy drinking expensive bourbon and cheering from the front row to get in the way of the team's GM.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#33 » by sully00 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:51 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
sully00 wrote:I don't think Bill wanted to necessarily dump Brady for Garapollo. While I am sure there is something to all the palace intrigue I don't think that is what forced Bill to trade Garapollo. To think this means you have to forget everything you know about Bellichick and assume he pissed his pants in the biggest decision of his career, I am still pissed with him about Butler and the SB but again I am not believing that guy does anything he doesn't want to.

I think Bill planned on trying to franchise Garapollo but I think he got wind of the salary cap jump coming this off season and knew that JG's franchise tag would be 23 mil for '18. The fact that Brady's number was a 3rd of that is one problem but no way Bill is interested in paying that for him to ride the pine or interested in dealing with SF lurking to give the guy the highest conract in the history of football.

The truth is yes Bill could have gotten more on paper by holding on to Jimmy, Franchising him, and then either working a deal with SF or forcing the full 1st and 3rd compensation. But it would have blasted a 23 mil dollar hole in salary cap this off season, and he likely would have gotten a 2019 1st and 3rd instead of 2018 2nd.

Bottom line is you can't give up a chance to go to the SB. Garapollo looks like a decent starter but I think the guy has about a 10% chance of playing in SB as a 49er on his current 5 year deal. Modestly Brady has a 60-80% chance of playing in the Super Bowl this year. I will take one year of greatness over 5 years of mediocrity every time.

The Pats are going to have to replace Brady someday but the reality is they are probably going to need someone better then Garapollo to win a another SB.


Better than JG? He's probably the best young QB in the game. Bill presumably was totally overruled by sentimental Robert, which is a shame. He didn't walk over it, but it wouldn't surprise me if Kraft's position has shortened Bill's tenure here too.


My head no he isn't. Watson, Wentz, Goff are all better and have been in the league less time. Jimmy looks like a middle of the road kind of guy he will put up some nice numbers, he will have some tough weeks and has a tendency to get hurt. He may become better than that I am just talking about what I am seeing to this point. He is also going to have a massive bullseye on his back with that contract and the all hype.

As for the palace intrigue like I said I have a hard time believing that Kraft told Bill he had to trade JG. Now I have no doubt he told him he can't trade Brady.
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Re: Semi - OT Should Belichick have pulled an Ainge 

Post#34 » by andrewww » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:32 pm

sully00 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
sully00 wrote:I don't think Bill wanted to necessarily dump Brady for Garapollo. While I am sure there is something to all the palace intrigue I don't think that is what forced Bill to trade Garapollo. To think this means you have to forget everything you know about Bellichick and assume he pissed his pants in the biggest decision of his career, I am still pissed with him about Butler and the SB but again I am not believing that guy does anything he doesn't want to.

I think Bill planned on trying to franchise Garapollo but I think he got wind of the salary cap jump coming this off season and knew that JG's franchise tag would be 23 mil for '18. The fact that Brady's number was a 3rd of that is one problem but no way Bill is interested in paying that for him to ride the pine or interested in dealing with SF lurking to give the guy the highest conract in the history of football.

The truth is yes Bill could have gotten more on paper by holding on to Jimmy, Franchising him, and then either working a deal with SF or forcing the full 1st and 3rd compensation. But it would have blasted a 23 mil dollar hole in salary cap this off season, and he likely would have gotten a 2019 1st and 3rd instead of 2018 2nd.

Bottom line is you can't give up a chance to go to the SB. Garapollo looks like a decent starter but I think the guy has about a 10% chance of playing in SB as a 49er on his current 5 year deal. Modestly Brady has a 60-80% chance of playing in the Super Bowl this year. I will take one year of greatness over 5 years of mediocrity every time.

The Pats are going to have to replace Brady someday but the reality is they are probably going to need someone better then Garapollo to win a another SB.


Better than JG? He's probably the best young QB in the game. Bill presumably was totally overruled by sentimental Robert, which is a shame. He didn't walk over it, but it wouldn't surprise me if Kraft's position has shortened Bill's tenure here too.


My head no he isn't. Watson, Wentz, Goff are all better and have been in the league less time. Jimmy looks like a middle of the road kind of guy he will put up some nice numbers, he will have some tough weeks and has a tendency to get hurt. He may become better than that I am just talking about what I am seeing to this point. He is also going to have a massive bullseye on his back with that contract and the all hype.

As for the palace intrigue like I said I have a hard time believing that Kraft told Bill he had to trade JG. Now I have no doubt he told him he can't trade Brady.


I don't think Goff is better than Jimmy. Both now and for the future. I'd take Jimmy over Watson as well... where Watson is slightly more mobile, Jimmy sees the game much better IMO and its hard to teach football IQ (this is not to say Watson isn't good, but Jimmy really impresses me in this respect). Jimmy's completion percentage of 68/67% the last two seasons and ability to translate minimal offensive talent around him wins in SF has been impressive, even if you believe teams will be better suited to defending him this season with more tape on him. He led them to a win against the best defense in the league with JAX.

Jimmy called an audible for the opening TD at ARZ two seasons ago when Brady was suspended, and everything about him screams elite (accuracy, decision making).

I honestly expected Jimmy to be the Young to Montana for Brady FWIW.. that first half vs MIA in week 2 of the 2016 season was a clinic.. everything about Jimmy screams Steve Young to me.

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