OT: Twitter Thread on 3 Decades of Russian & Mafia Relationships with Trump

[Clyde_Style]

One more

The Only Way to Find Out If the President Can Be Indicted

Scholars disagree on existing precedents—and the question won’t be settled until evidence leads a prosecutor to try it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/presidential-indictment/560957/

I was actually just about to share that piece -- I remember reading it a couple months ago. I really like the Schrödinger’s Cat analogy, in that the only way to know is when someone tries it.

As you stated in another post, this will ultimately be decided by the SCOTUS (if Mueller attempts to indict). And given the current political polarization, especially if/when Kavanaugh is confirmed, it's not a forgone conclusion that they will allow it. The lack of precedent, and the fact that there is no general consensus from legal scholars, etc. means that any SC justice could conceivably make a defensible argument both for or against it.

My hope is that the evidence/case presented by Mueller is so strong and overwhelming that the the SCOTUS will essentially be forced to allow it (with Thomas, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh dissenting, lol).

Agreed, that's how I think it will play out even with two partisans on the bench. This is an overwhelming case of treason. There's so much more in terms of overall fraud, but the treason aspect is what should put this one over the top

[Clyde_Style]

Just a head's up, look for the first indications of trouble for Pence soon

I would actually be pretty surprised if we don't start hearing leaks about Pence being under investigation by some time in October

My take on this is Mueller is planning to take out both Trump and Pence and that might require dropping his bombs (and/or indictments) on each of them either simultaneously or within a close time frame of each other.

I expect Pence to be proven guilty of obstruction of justice and conspiracy against the U.S. unless he steps down prior to being charged.

I do not expect Pence to ever take over the Presidency from Trump because I expect Mueller has planned this out well enough to prevent a second traitor from taking Trump's place

[GONYK]

Read on Twitter

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

Lindsey Graham has been FOS for some time now.

The Russians seem to have komprommat on this guy. He went from being critical of Trump to sucking up to him in the blink of an eye.

Graham was the first congressional leader to confirm his office had been penetrated by hackers.

Whatever Graham says now, I expect the opposite to happen. This guy is definitely compromised and is not playing with a full deck.

[E86]

Cohen talked tough but is unraveling like a cheap suit. Sad.

This entire investigation is tainted since Manafort was the example that if you don’t give Mueller what he’s looking for he will charge you with unrelated crimes. You could probably do the same thing to 90% of Washington and unearth a whole host of impropriety and crimes.

It’s just as bad as Ken Starr in the 90s. I hate politics so much. And I absolutely hate people who embrace a single political party like dogmatic useful idiots.

That's how you fight crime. Mueller was the 2nd longest serving FBI Director and he dismantled mafia organizations in the same way.

Since Trump, Cohen and Manafort have long been in bed with mobsters IN ADDITION TO BEING TRAITORS, there is nothing tainted about the investigation.

You attack one set of crimes to get leverage to prosecute the other set of crimes.

Unless you are also saying you don't care if Trump and his associates committed treason in which case you are free to also say right now that you don't care if they committed treason. That's fine. If the shoe fits, then wear it.

But there is nothing UNFAIR about this investigation. They are serial criminals being dismantled by professional crime fighters.

And torture works on black sites to get accurate information from enemies of the state.

If you fight crime by going after Russian collusion and some how end up prosecuting a bunch of unrelated crimes while squeezing desperate informants for information that may or may not be accurate then the system needs changing. Fast.

The last thing democracy needs is a gestapo like agency that can destroy people’s lives and operates independently without elected officials.

The FBI has always been a **** show. Since J Edgar. **** the police.

[Capn'O]

Read on Twitter

Watch on YouTube

[Clyde_Style]

This entire investigation is tainted since Manafort was the example that if you don’t give Mueller what he’s looking for he will charge you with unrelated crimes. You could probably do the same thing to 90% of Washington and unearth a whole host of impropriety and crimes.

It’s just as bad as Ken Starr in the 90s. I hate politics so much. And I absolutely hate people who embrace a single political party like dogmatic useful idiots.

That's how you fight crime. Mueller was the 2nd longest serving FBI Director and he dismantled mafia organizations in the same way.

Since Trump, Cohen and Manafort have long been in bed with mobsters IN ADDITION TO BEING TRAITORS, there is nothing tainted about the investigation.

You attack one set of crimes to get leverage to prosecute the other set of crimes.

Unless you are also saying you don't care if Trump and his associates committed treason in which case you are free to also say right now that you don't care if they committed treason. That's fine. If the shoe fits, then wear it.

But there is nothing UNFAIR about this investigation. They are serial criminals being dismantled by professional crime fighters.

And torture works on black sites to get accurate information from enemies of the state.

If you fight crime by going after Russian collusion and some how end up prosecuting a bunch of unrelated crimes while squeezing desperate informants for information that may or may not be accurate then the system needs changing. Fast.

The last thing democracy needs is a gestapo like agency that can destroy people’s lives and operates independently without elected officials.

The FBI has always been a **** show. Since J Edgar. **** the police.

Perhaps you don't understand how judges had to approve warrants. The judges are a check and balance.

Wrong agency though. Mueller is working inside the DOJ now which is not the same thing as running the FBI. He has a boss called Rod Rosenstein. Jeff Sessions, the head of the DOJ, just came out and said he will not interfere with justice.

You can rage about your favorite person being unfairly treated all you want, but nothing you're saying indicates you have any interest in actual justice being rendered. You just don't want your guy to get popped.

That has nothing to do with you having higher principles and being interested in freedom. If you were so interested in freedom, you'd want this kind of corruption exposed and brought to justice.

Nothing changes the facts that already multiple witnesses are going to testify in court Trump committed treason.

If you actually cared about justice, you'd be against a president committing treason.

So it is a simple question:

Will you state that you will support Trump even with irrefutable proof that he committed treason?

And, no, you don't get to qualify that by saying you would if the methods of investigation were legit, because Trump has implicated himself every step of the way. Only a bonehead investigator would have a hard time proving Trump's guilt. No malfeasance is required to pursue this case.

And your use of historical terms is also very confused.

The Gestapo did not function with any due process. There were no checks and balances to hold the gestapo accountable. Calling Mueller the Gestapo is laughable. Mueller has demonstrated he will proceed in a non-partisan fashion and has already referred Democrats for possible prosecution. Does the name Podesta mean anything to you? Yeah, well he's in trouble too.

As far as your recommendations that defendants not be squeezed by prosecutors, that's just silly. You received about ten responses that threw that misguided complaint back in your face. Why don't you reply to each of those too and see where that gets you? You clearly don't know what you're talking about and how our legal system functions. You're pretending this is not the way it should be done. You're living in a fairytale if you actually believe that.

[thebuzzardman]

Lot's of great analysis here. Here's a bit of opinionating. It's a brief comment. I expect it to be somewhat easily refuted, on the one hand, on the other I think it's interesting to consider.

These are somewhat broad statements and obviously don't 100% apply to all:

It doesn't matter that much to Trump's base if he's accused of a crime(s). Especially if some confusion or relativism can be created around the crimes, which softens some of their perceived severity.

You have to consider that Trump represents a F*CK YOU! populist middle finger to a political and societal system that a lot of these people feel (which some legitimacy) has been screwing them around at least a good 11 years and in a lot of ways longer. But at the very least, the thoughts crystalize in the economic collapse and the slow recovery moving forward.

Mix that with the usual "Liberals suck" and "My team is winning" and I think we shouldn't underestimate the degree to which a large percentage of his supporters would feel "Sure, he committed crimes, but they all do, and he's OUR guy, who really cares about US"

It's a sort of toxic mix of desperation, anger and defeatism towards the system mixed with that general tendency in our politics to root for the "home team"

Listen, I'll hold people responsible for being gullible and buying Trump's line of sh*t. I get that. And the obvious just plain old racism that fuels it. But it's hard to ignore the collective disenfranchisement these people feel - and yes, surely stoked for a number of years for political benefit. Trump getting elected was partially populist (right of center) revolt and the other half was years of certain style of politics coming home to roost.

By the way, I'm not so much "feeling the pain" of these disaffected working and poor whites, especially in the obvious context and history of people of various shades of color getting the big screwing over for years in all the obvious ways, continuing into the present. All I can say is there is, of course these groups SHOULD have common cause, but obviously keeping them at each others neck is part of a long running playbook. I guess the other difference in how the resentment expresses itself is other groups knew they were always working against the stacked deck/sh*tty deal, while this group assumed a sort of birth right, a sort of promise and "way things go" and when they wake up and find the screwing they are getting is fairly equal opportunity, it gets expressed differently.

My big point, my one statement to wrap up this entire mess, is that while Trump has issues, and is dangerous, all the conditions that produced someone like him getting elected are far, far, far more troubling and dangerous.

I'll settle on for the near term problem being dealt with. It's like triage. To keep the metaphor going, I'm less optimistic for the other mass casualties.

Ok, that was little longer than I thought it would be.

[thebuzzardman]

Read on Twitter

QAnonsense

I've attended various churches, mosques and synagogues. Humans got this. They'll work it out.

[thebuzzardman]

Read on Twitter

Lindsey Graham has been FOS for some time now.

The Russians seem to have komprommat on this guy. He went from being critical of Trump to sucking up to him in the blink of an eye.

Graham was the first congressional leader to confirm his office had been penetrated by hackers.

Whatever Graham says now, I expect the opposite to happen. This guy is definitely compromised and is not playing with a full deck.

You might be right. I think it's just as likely to be "politics"

For a while Lindsay in the Senate, and Trey Goudey, in the house were two pretty staunch conservatives who were serving up some pretty "statesmen" like statements around Trump. As the election starting getting closer within the last two months, both have reverted to some more "pro Trump" statements. I think it's for the elections. Yes, I know Goudey isn't running anymore - more of doing what's "right" in the election for the "team"

You've had a pretty good finger on the pulse of things though. Just putting it up for thoughts.

[HarthorneWingo]

Lot's of great analysis here. Here's a bit of opinionating. It's a brief comment. I expect it to be somewhat easily refuted, on the one hand, on the other I think it's interesting to consider.

These are somewhat broad statements and obviously don't 100% apply to all:

It doesn't matter that much to Trump's base if he's accused of a crime(s). Especially if some confusion or relativism can be created around the crimes, which softens some of their perceived severity.

You have to consider that Trump represents a F*CK YOU! populist middle finger to a political and societal system that a lot of these people feel (which some legitimacy) has been screwing them around at least a good 11 years and in a lot of ways longer. But at the very least, the thoughts crystalize in the economic collapse and the slow recovery moving forward.

Mix that with the usual "Liberals suck" and "My team is winning" and I think we shouldn't underestimate the degree to which a large percentage of his supporters would feel "Sure, he committed crimes, but they all do, and he's OUR guy, who really cares about US"

It's a sort of toxic mix of desperation, anger and defeatism towards the system mixed with that general tendency in our politics to root for the "home team"

Listen, I'll hold people responsible for being gullible and buying Trump's line of sh*t. I get that. And the obvious just plain old racism that fuels it. But it's hard to ignore the collective disenfranchisement these people feel - and yes, surely stoked for a number of years for political benefit. Trump getting elected was partially populist (right of center) revolt and the other half was years of certain style of politics coming home to roost.

By the way, I'm not so much "feeling the pain" of these disaffected working and poor whites, especially in the obvious context and history of people of various shades of color getting the big screwing over for years in all the obvious ways, continuing into the present. All I can say is there is, of course these groups SHOULD have common cause, but obviously keeping them at each others neck is part of a long running playbook. I guess the other difference in how the resentment expresses itself is other groups knew they were always working against the stacked deck/sh*tty deal, while this group assumed a sort of birth right, a sort of promise and "way things go" and when they wake up and find the screwing they are getting is fairly equal opportunity, it gets expressed differently.

My big point, my one statement to wrap up this entire mess, is that while Trump has issues, and is dangerous, all the conditions that produced someone like him getting elected are far, far, far more troubling and dangerous.

I'll settle on for the near term problem being dealt with. It's like triage. To keep the metaphor going, I'm less optimistic for the other mass casualties.

Ok, that was little longer than I thought it would be.

The wealthy republicans, i.e. the ones who've benefited from all this de-regulation and tax cutting, have been playing the working class and the evangelicals for decades by playing to their racist views on immigration and archaic religious views (i.e. arbortion, death penalty, etc.) Trump is a symptom of the greater problems caused by conservative rule. He's their Frankentstein and he must be destroyed. (He will get indicted one way or the other. Either after impeachment, resignation or leaving office after his term. At that point, he will go to jail. Book it.)

But, you're right, they'll be no talking about a way "back to normal" after that. It's been proven that there is no reasoning with them. There will be no "coming together moment" after this. No kumbaya. We must keep our boot on their neck just like they have always done to us. That's what makes the republicans more successful than the democrats. They're ruthless and have no interest in coming to some kind of meeting of the minds or compromise with us.

[Clyde_Style]

Lot's of great analysis here. Here's a bit of opinionating. It's a brief comment. I expect it to be somewhat easily refuted, on the one hand, on the other I think it's interesting to consider.

These are somewhat broad statements and obviously don't 100% apply to all:

It doesn't matter that much to Trump's base if he's accused of a crime(s). Especially if some confusion or relativism can be created around the crimes, which softens some of their perceived severity.

You have to consider that Trump represents a F*CK YOU! populist middle finger to a political and societal system that a lot of these people feel (which some legitimacy) has been screwing them around at least a good 11 years and in a lot of ways longer. But at the very least, the thoughts crystalize in the economic collapse and the slow recovery moving forward.

Mix that with the usual "Liberals suck" and "My team is winning" and I think we shouldn't underestimate the degree to which a large percentage of his supporters would feel "Sure, he committed crimes, but they all do, and he's OUR guy, who really cares about US"

It's a sort of toxic mix of desperation, anger and defeatism towards the system mixed with that general tendency in our politics to root for the "home team"

Listen, I'll hold people responsible for being gullible and buying Trump's line of sh*t. I get that. And the obvious just plain old racism that fuels it. But it's hard to ignore the collective disenfranchisement these people feel - and yes, surely stoked for a number of years for political benefit. Trump getting elected was partially populist (right of center) revolt and the other half was years of certain style of politics coming home to roost.

By the way, I'm not so much "feeling the pain" of these disaffected working and poor whites, especially in the obvious context and history of people of various shades of color getting the big screwing over for years in all the obvious ways, continuing into the present. All I can say is there is, of course these groups SHOULD have common cause, but obviously keeping them at each others neck is part of a long running playbook. I guess the other difference in how the resentment expresses itself is other groups knew they were always working against the stacked deck/sh*tty deal, while this group assumed a sort of birth right, a sort of promise and "way things go" and when they wake up and find the screwing they are getting is fairly equal opportunity, it gets expressed differently.

My big point, my one statement to wrap up this entire mess, is that while Trump has issues, and is dangerous, all the conditions that produced someone like him getting elected are far, far, far more troubling and dangerous.

I'll settle on for the near term problem being dealt with. It's like triage. To keep the metaphor going, I'm less optimistic for the other mass casualties.

Ok, that was little longer than I thought it would be.

Systemic corruption cannot be addressed without taking down this gang of mobsters first.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but we're in triage mode now and have to survive this first. Once we do that, perhaps enough of those who were divided and conquered will have their own light bulb moments and realize they were taken for a ride and will actually support true corruption fighters.

[Clyde_Style]

Read on Twitter

Lindsey Graham has been FOS for some time now.

The Russians seem to have komprommat on this guy. He went from being critical of Trump to sucking up to him in the blink of an eye.

Graham was the first congressional leader to confirm his office had been penetrated by hackers.

Whatever Graham says now, I expect the opposite to happen. This guy is definitely compromised and is not playing with a full deck.

You might be right. I think it's just as likely to be "politics"

For a while Lindsay in the Senate, and Trey Goudey, in the house were two pretty staunch conservatives who were serving up some pretty "statesmen" like statements around Trump. As the election starting getting closer within the last two months, both have reverted to some more "pro Trump" statements. I think it's for the elections. Yes, I know Goudey isn't running anymore - more of doing what's "right" in the election for the "team"

You've had a pretty good finger on the pulse of things though. Just putting it up for thoughts.

Buzz, I don't know if Graham will come out as dirty in the wash, but I'm quite confident his feet are being held to the fire. He is compromised IMO.

He's not brazenly in somebody's pocket like Rand Paul who has a hard on for Putin like nobody's business. I'll be waiting to find out what his deal is. He's something else.

[duetta]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/opinion/politics/conspiracy-theory-trump-cohen.html

[Clyde_Style]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/opinion/politics/conspiracy-theory-trump-cohen.html

Good overview of Trump's liability re: hush payments and how conspiracy is seen in legal terms

What's really overwhelming for Trump is there are multiple conspiracies he can be prosecuted for.

You have

conspiracy to commit campaign financial violations
conspiracy to commit election fraud
conspiracy to obstruct justice

all of them were group efforts, hence a whole of lot of prosecutions on conspiracy charges are looming

[Clyde_Style]

Study: 11 million white Americans think like the alt-right

https://www.vox.com/2018/8/10/17670992/study-white-americans-alt-right-racism-white-nationalists

No data provided on how many are Knicks fans

[stuporman]

Trump has operated outside of protocols, practices and accepted behavior associated with the Presidency and government since he started to run and while being in the White House. So even if it's not a typical practice by indicting a sitting President he has already broken the seal on all of that 'normalcy', he's getting indicted on something eventually, it's only fitting.

[Pointgod]

Trump has operated outside of protocols, practices and accepted behavior associated with the Presidency and government since he started to run and while being in the White House. So even if it's not a typical practice by indicting a sitting President he has already broken the seal on all of that 'normalcy', he's getting indicted on something eventually, it's only fitting.

The rules are out the window. if there's evidence to indict him then do it.

[Clyde_Style]

Trump has operated outside of protocols, practices and accepted behavior associated with the Presidency and government since he started to run and while being in the White House. So even if it's not a typical practice by indicting a sitting President he has already broken the seal on all of that 'normalcy', he's getting indicted on something eventually, it's only fitting.

The rules are out the window. if there's evidence to indict him then do it.

There will always be people who mistakenly say you can't do it or it won't happen and they'll be wrong just like every time they said where's the results of the Mueller investigation? as if there hasn't been significant progress made despite the slew of indictments and now convictions staring them in the face.

[stuporman]

If Trump does get indicted, I doubt it is for something like treason, it will be something along the lines of obstruction. Which will continue to allow him and his cult followers to dance around acting like he didn't do anything wrong.