Political Roundtable Part XXII

[FAH1223]

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[stilldropin20]

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[stilldropin20]

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sounds like people are quaking in their boots. Why? Why fear trump so much? he is our duly elected president and every action he has taken is protect americans. protect democracy. protect our markets. Why is it so important to stop him?


cant say i put too much into alex jones but he has been calling on the expose of a massive pedophile ring for 2 years. an dlast week it all happened. 301 priests and bishops in pennsylvania with ties to sandusky and penn state feeding these abuse children back and forth to each other. the investigation and en masse admissions began to come out very recently. hmmmmm.....

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[FAH1223]

Wow not even waiting until his body is cold to **** on him. This type of politics is not needed.

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[payitforward]

...Two key elements define conservatism (& as is no surprise they can be in conflict with one another). The first is a belief in the inherent value of existing social practices, traditions & institutions. Not necessarily all of them, but overall conservatism gives them great importance.

In "modern" conservatism (i.e. beginning in the enlightenment & powered by the industrial revolution), the thinker most closely associated with developing/defending this point of view was Edmund Burke. Especially in his brilliant Reflections on the Revolution in France (an anti-revolution tract), which you can download at https://socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/burke/revfrance.pdf.

The other key element defining conservatism is a belief in Free Enterprise, based -- as most people know -- on the model elaborated in Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, which you can download at https://www.ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/SmithA_WealthNations_p.pdf.

Note that in the phrase "free enterprise," the word "enterprise" did not & does not mean "business" -- it refers to any & all human undertakings. The point is maximum freedom (of action, movement, association, etc.) to the individual. ...
Popper may be a conservative..... I certainly hope Popper doesn't think everything everyone else writes here is meant to pile on him!

I would add as well that I wouldn't be surprised if some people here did characterize themselves as "conservative" -- yet have no interest at all in supporting Donald Trump.

Bravo PIF. Thank you for accurately characterizing “conservative.” Maybe others here will read Edmund Burke (if they haven’t already) now that you’ve mentioned him. He’s a true intellectual giant IMO.

Edit : on the flip side of Burke, I’d also recommend The Prison Papers by Gramsci. Although brilliant, his writings have done more damage to this country than any other IMO

Huh! If there's more than 1 or 2 other posters here who have heard of Antonio Gramsci it'll be a pleasant surprise. What you're referring to are the Prison Notebooks -- which Gramsci composed while imprisoned from 1929-35 (when he was was released b/c of ill health: he died 2 years later, aged 46).

Gramsci is one of the key thinkers of XXth Century Marxism &, many people would say, of XXth Century political philosophy altogether. It's been many decades since I've read anything by him, & I wasn't anything like an expert on him back when I did (the first selections from the 3000 pages of these notebooks appeared in English in the 1970s). But, there is no question that he was, as you say, "brilliant."

Probably his most famous saying -- one which I've had reason to recall many times & very usefully -- is this:

"Pessimism of the intellect; optimism of the will."

The right attitude in many situations (including that of the Wizards fan, come to think of it!).

TBH, Popper, it's hard for me to see how Gramsci or his writings have done any damage whatever to this country. There isn't enough Marxism in the US to fill a thimble (outside of the "theory of a theory of a theory" academic kind -- which has had zero impact), & even if there were, Gramsci's densely theoretical/historical essays aren't the kind of thing to return any significant practical effect. Especially compared to something like, say, Mao's Little Red Book.

Edmund Burke -- yes, an exceptional writer, thinker -- & statesman. But, you do understand what was at stake for Burke & those who reacted to him, right? Edmund Burke denied the entire idea of "the rights of man" (or as we now call them more often: "human rights"). For him, all "rights" come to a person by way of the traditions of his country.

Tom Paine's The Rights of Man, usually regarded as a fundamental work in establishing the American character & political system, was written as a riposte to Burke.

[popper]

...Two key elements define conservatism (& as is no surprise they can be in conflict with one another). The first is a belief in the inherent value of existing social practices, traditions & institutions. Not necessarily all of them, but overall conservatism gives them great importance.

In "modern" conservatism (i.e. beginning in the enlightenment & powered by the industrial revolution), the thinker most closely associated with developing/defending this point of view was Edmund Burke. Especially in his brilliant Reflections on the Revolution in France (an anti-revolution tract), which you can download at https://socialsciences.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/burke/revfrance.pdf.

The other key element defining conservatism is a belief in Free Enterprise, based -- as most people know -- on the model elaborated in Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations, which you can download at https://www.ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/SmithA_WealthNations_p.pdf.

Note that in the phrase "free enterprise," the word "enterprise" did not & does not mean "business" -- it refers to any & all human undertakings. The point is maximum freedom (of action, movement, association, etc.) to the individual. ...
Popper may be a conservative..... I certainly hope Popper doesn't think everything everyone else writes here is meant to pile on him!

I would add as well that I wouldn't be surprised if some people here did characterize themselves as "conservative" -- yet have no interest at all in supporting Donald Trump.

Bravo PIF. Thank you for accurately characterizing “conservative.” Maybe others here will read Edmund Burke (if they haven’t already) now that you’ve mentioned him. He’s a true intellectual giant IMO.

Edit : on the flip side of Burke, I’d also recommend The Prison Papers by Gramsci. Although brilliant, his writings have done more damage to this country than any other IMO

Huh! If there's more than 1 or 2 other posters here who have heard of Antonio Gramsci it'll be a pleasant surprise. What you're referring to are the Prison Notebooks -- which Gramsci composed while imprisoned from 1929-35 (when he was was released b/c of ill health: he died 2 years later, aged 46).

Gramsci is one of the key thinkers of XXth Century Marxism &, many people would say, of XXth Century political philosophy altogether. It's been many decades since I've read anything by him, & I wasn't anything like an expert on him back when I did (the first selections from the 3000 pages of these notebooks appeared in English in the 1970s). But, there is no question that he was, as you say, "brilliant."

Probably his most famous saying -- one which I've had reason to recall many times & very usefully -- is this:

"Pessimism of the intellect; optimism of the will."

The right attitude in many situations (including that of the Wizards fan, come to think of it!).

TBH, Popper, it's hard for me to see how Gramsci or his writings have done any damage whatever to this country. There isn't enough Marxism in the US to fill a thimble (outside of the "theory of a theory of a theory" academic kind -- which has had zero impact), & even if there were, Gramsci's densely theoretical/historical essays aren't the kind of thing to return any significant practical effect. Especially compared to something like, say, Mao's Little Red Book.

Edmund Burke -- yes, an exceptional writer, thinker -- & statesman. But, you do understand what was at stake for Burke & those who reacted to him, right? Edmund Burke denied the entire idea of "the rights of man" (or as we now call them more often: "human rights"). For him, all "rights" come to a person by way of the traditions of his country.

Tom Paine's The Rights of Man, usually regarded as a fundamental work in establishing the American character & political system, was written as a riposte to Burke.

I’m a believer in aspects of both Burke and Paine’s seemingly opposing philosophies regarding the origins of the “rights”of man. Its clear the French Revolution catalyzed deep thought on the subject. I’m traveling full time until mid October but will try to explain further as time permits (if you’re interested). Gramsci’s a different animal and I disagree with you regarding his influence on our politics and govt. IMO, he invented the blue print of progressive strategy for influence and power and it’s working as intended. He’s succeeded where Marx and Lenin failed (insofar as the USA is concerned). That’s why I have so much respect for his intellect. Unfortunately for our country, it’s destined to lead to misery and perhaps even revolution.

[gtn130]

Wow not even waiting until his body is cold to **** on him. This type of politics is not needed.

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John McCain appeared to be a polite human being and was a war hero, but anyone rubber stamping the neocon foreign policy agenda and military industrial complex is/was a massive net negative to society. Glad he wouldn't call Obama a Muslim or whatever, but the conclusion of his political career is a good thing.

[stilldropin20]

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[stilldropin20]

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now its a party for all!! 2 weeks ago 88% approval rating among his base and now sitting at 90% among his base. This is what we call, in the bix, virtually 100% satisfaction. Nobody has had this type of support in their base. ever. Of. All. fricking. Time.

i hope you like it because you are getting 6 more years of it and at some point the DOJ will get its ship together!! When it does, look out. Imma go with rudy Guiliani for USAG? Whudaya thank? Rudy cleaned up NYC, ya thank he can clean up da swampy swamp?

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[stilldropin20]

i cant believe that alex jones and info wars called this almost 2 years ago!! seriously!!

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[verbal8]

As Trump issues his statement on McCain, I'm reminded of just what a piece of garbage he is. Also...that no competent speechwriter works for him.

He had a decent statement prepared for him to release - which mentioned the McCain as a hero, but he vetoed it and insisted on releasing his lame twitter statement.

If anything illustrates how objectively incompetent Trump is, it would be this.

For all the right-wing snowflake talk of needing civility - McCain is generally getting it from the left/Democrats. It is the RWNJs(Trump, Palin and Kellie Ward seem the worst) that can't help themselves in indulging their petty disputes with him.

[Zonkerbl]

I wouldn't say socialism is a theory of a theory of a theory. My grandfather was a card carrying member of the American Communist Party and a union organiser. Socialism manifests differently in the United States than in Europe - socialism is a class against class thing over there, while here it's just an economic thing, represented by unions. Unions were very strong in the United States until they were wiped out by advancing technology and increased international trade. I would argue that the catastrophe we are in right now is because of the collapse of socialism in the United States. Those uneducated white deplorables who voted for Trump in Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania used to be union members.

Unions are just a way for poor people to grab some of the economic rents being generated by capitalists who otherwise would hoard all the wealth to themselves. They are neither good nor evil but a manifestation of the evils underlying the Capitalist system. There is no "invisible hand" ensuring the wealthy will share with the poor - that *has* to take place by force. Or you end up with what we have now in the United States - a "middle class" whose income hasn't risen in real terms since the 1980s, and a larger and larger chunk of the nation's wealth in the hands of a smaller and smaller ruling Mafia oligarchy. It's why Trump loves Russia so much - that is his vision for America.

And an extremely well-funded propaganda campaign aimed at keeping the poor fighting among themselves instead of realizing who the real enemy is.

What we need is an organizational tool like unions to counteract the Mafia propaganda campaign, force the Mafia to share their wealth, and use those resources to provide services to the middle class. Nobody's bootstrapping the poor out of this otherwise - we'll just have more shootings and more homelessness and more violence until the whole country goes up in flames. We are *this close* to a civil war right now. Socialism will either prevent it, or be the outcome of that war. Like Marx said, socialism is inevitable. We can embrace it and facilitate the change rationally, or let it happen chaotically.

[popper]

Just finished a 4 mile hike in the dark in Breckenridge CO. Elevation 9600 feet and current temp is 42 degrees. I’m still thinking that a gas tax (or VMT tax) is ripe for consideration. Chamber of Commerce wants .05 increase per year up to max of .25 total. I think that’s a bit high but a good starting point for discussion. I also want to revisit a Bernie Sanders proposal to tax wealth which I endorsed here some time ago. Not sure exactly how it would work but what about 1% per year on certain classes of assets over some threshold (say 10 or 20 million). Applied to individuals, foundations, endowments (not sure exactly).

[Wizardspride]

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[TGW]

Just finished a 4 mile hike in the dark in Breckenridge CO. Elevation 9600 feet and current temp is 42 degrees. I’m still thinking that a gas tax (or VMT tax) is ripe for consideration. Chamber of Commerce wants .05 increase per year up to max of .25 total. I think that’s a bit high but a good starting point for discussion. I also want to revisit a Bernie Sanders proposal to tax wealth which I endorsed here some time ago. Not sure exactly how it would work but what about 1% per year on certain classes of assets over some threshold (say 10 or 20 million). Applied to individuals, foundations, endowments (not sure exactly).

wait, did someone hijack popper's account? I can't believe what I just read

[Zonkerbl]

I just got back from Ohio. Lots of frustrated ex-union guys there. Desperate to be heard. I think if Bernie had won the Dem nomination, or if he had run as an independent, they would have voted for him instead of Trump, and the outcome of the election would've been very different. Just want someone, anyone to speak up for them. And everyone's all "Ah shut up racist white guy."

[popper]

Just finished a 4 mile hike in the dark in Breckenridge CO. Elevation 9600 feet and current temp is 42 degrees. I’m still thinking that a gas tax (or VMT tax) is ripe for consideration. Chamber of Commerce wants .05 increase per year up to max of .25 total. I think that’s a bit high but a good starting point for discussion. I also want to revisit a Bernie Sanders proposal to tax wealth which I endorsed here some time ago. Not sure exactly how it would work but what about 1% per year on certain classes of assets over some threshold (say 10 or 20 million). Applied to individuals, foundations, endowments (not sure exactly).

wait, did someone hijack popper's account? I can't believe what I just read

I’ve posted my support of these policies previously here. I also posted that I would have voted for a D (Jim Webb, had he made it out of the primary) over the R nominee. People like to ignore or forget because pigeon holing and broad-brushing conservatives is more satisfying I guess. With that being said there are many policy positions that Trump has taken that I fully support. Too bad he’s personally detestable.

[Ruzious]

:o

i cant believe that alex jones and info wars called this almost 2 years ago!! seriously!!

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It's not exactly a shocker. Even when I agree with you, you sound like an 8 year old screaching Look at me ma! Look at me ma! Look at me ma! Smack! Go to your room, and no flossing for you tonight.

[zero2hero]

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Dammmeeee the Dems are about to make the Benghazi hearings look like Child's Play

[stilldropin20]

As Trump issues his statement on McCain, I'm reminded of just what a piece of garbage he is. Also...that no competent speechwriter works for him.

He had a decent statement prepared for him to release - which mentioned the McCain as a hero, but he vetoed it and insisted on releasing his lame twitter statement.

If anything illustrates how objectively incompetent Trump is, it would be this.

For all the right-wing snowflake talk of needing civility - McCain is generally getting it from the left/Democrats. It is the RWNJs(Trump, Palin and Kellie Ward seem the worst) that can't help themselves in indulging their petty disputes with him.

john mccain literally walked a version of the dossier from his office on capital hill to harry reid as well as to james comey. he was fed a version from steele associates. then also fed it to lindsey graham. reid and comey already had their copies of the dossier from directly from brennen himself but the way it got circulated in this manner using John Mccain, the dossier initially had bi-partisan support. John Mccain thought it was a fully vetted journalist article. probably thought so until he died. this is why it was so easy to launch the illegal investigation early into trump based on a completely uncorroborated and unverified piece of opposition research because John Mccain and therefore Lindsey Graham thought it was real.

so yeah. trump aint happy with mccain and i wouldnt be either if i was trump. now lets look at mccains actual history. Nearly expelled from annapolois multiple times for partying and other childish behavior. Admiral lineage kept him in. and got him in as a pilot. Then got him into congress. Multiple scandel brushed under the rug...(because POW?) what he did with the savings and loan scandel was disgraceful. Mccain personally put his wife and father-in-law in and out of real estate ventures financed by the leading culprit of the scandel as he held up the S n L investigation in congress for 2 years. but by this point he was too valuable to congress to remove as he would "jump sides" on key votes(had favors due to him on both sides of the aisle)...so called "conscious" votes. And was the face of restoring relations with vietnam, who better than a Vietnamese POW. His final "favors" to the left was supporting the dossier and down voting the ACA repeal.

^^All of which is fine and dandy if it supports your politics, i guess. Not for me though. By 1990 Mccain was already the 6th wealthiest sitting senator. a guy who dad and grad dad were Navy guys. You dont make money in the navy nor are you suppose to make it in the senate...not if you are playing by the actual rules.

In short John mccain is exactly what liberals foolishly think Donald Trump is...a man in congress who swung votes and worked to move congress in such a way to benefit himself and his family.

^^and none of that is the worst part. Worst of all he was sickening weapons and war monger fighting for war. in all parts of the world. but never pushing to win wars. just prolonged hostility and conflict while he and other senators and heads of state and VP's like John Kerry, Joe Biden, HRC negotiated "peace talks." Somehow those peace talks always included massive amounts of wealth infused Biden and John Kerry's sons wealth management companies as well as the clinton foundation. Mccain took his money directly from Soros and the Koch brothers. Prolonged conflict and massive spending. That was the Mccain, kerry, Biden, HRC playbook. And for what? Whats did we get out of any of the conflicts mccain pushed? Any of the regime changes? The American people got nothing!!! Those guys got and many others wealthier and wealthier.

I mean the crap these guys pulled is so brazen i cant believe more people haven't caught on. We are talking money going into their foundations and corporate ties and campaign funds. Where with trump we are talking about money going out from his accounts and into others. The hypocrisy is so rich and so thick.