RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#12 2018-19

[XxIronChainzxX]

Wow you Jokic lovers are outrageous.

I think it's crazier that Kyrie has as many votes as Oladipo, Draymond, Lillard, and Gobert combined when all four posted higher RPM values just last season than Kyrie ever has in his career. The fact that the only actual argument I've seen for Kyrie in this thread has been by Duke yet Kyrie might win the poll tells me this is starting to turn into a bit of a popularity contest. And Kyrie is no doubt popular finishing 5th in All Star voting in 2017 and 5th in 2018, 4th in jersey sales this past season, and 2nd in signature shoe sales only behind LeBron.

But the top tier impact in comparison to the wide perception of him has never really been there in his career, and when you refrain from using arguments like "clutchness," "Mamba mentality," "the shot in Game 7," and "he gets buckets," it becomes very difficult to construct an argument that he's the 12th best player in the league, but I'm more than open to hearing evidence- based arguments for why he is. I just haven't seen convincing arguments here. As an offensive player, he's fantastic due to his elite efficiency, top tier isolation creation, and low turnover rate, but he lacks the off ball play and great playmaking that separates the top 5 offensive players from the next 10 or so. And then when you factor in that he's a clear negative defender by any measure (and I don't think even Kyrie's biggest supporters would argue against this), it's hard to see how he's the 12th best guy here

I think the evidence is clear that Kyrie, who made the shot in game 7, has an aura of clutchness around him and the same Mamba mentality as Kobe; he gets buckets, and everyone knows the team with the highest points wins the game.

Joking aside, I think what is missing from your offensive analysis, metric wise, is the way in which players can score. And I think the way in which Kyrie scores, his ability as an isolation scorer, his handles, make him uniquely valuable as an offensive player vs. e.g., Harden (especially how good Kyrie is from 10-16 feet, by comparison). You refer to e.g., Towns and Giannis as well, and again, I think that once you get to the upper echelon of scoring we need to think in a far more granular fashion about how guys score than composite advanced metrics.

[rcc8884]

We're averaging 400+ views in less than a day and almost 200 people voting yet no thread has gone over 3 pages.

Whoops

I voted Oladipo again and think he really needs to be considered especially over Irving at this point.

I think LaMarcus Aldridge should be added to the poll

[ITYSL]

Also - I've seen Kyrie rank highly for like the past 5 polls with no one commenting on why. I think there's an argument to be made for him at this point but I'd like to see someone make it otherwise I'm gonna assume there's just a disproportionate amount of C's fans here.

11th in ppg
3rd in pts/100 for players with significant minutes
8th in ws/48
5th in OBPM
8th in overall BPM
7th in eFG% and 8th in TS% for players with 20+ ppg
2nd lowest TO% among high usage PGs
Highest WS/48, BPM and VORP on a team that was fighting for the 1 seed when he went down

I'm sure there are plenty of others I could pull up too. Then there is the eye test, of course. Irving simply looks like an elite player, and one of the best in the game, when you watch him.

I can understand arguments for Oladipo, Jokic and Dame, but the ones saying that Irving shouldnt even be considered near the 12th best player are ignorant.

I cant pretend to speak for all Celtics fans on this board, but my guess is that most Celtics fans are staying quiet mostly because they dont care that much about the opinion of the RealGM GB - which taken as a whole has gotten a lot of things wrong about the Celtics in the last few years. Just one example: Many people here were predicting significant drops in his numbers, particularly efficiency, with the Celtics because he no longer had Lebron drawing attention away, and then even moreso when Hayward went down. Those people were wrong. He had career-best numbers in pts/100, Ortg, Drtg, rb/100, FG%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP.

I know for myself, I just dont care that much how any of the Celtics are ranked. Real GM could rank all of them outside the top 50 for all I care. I just want them to stay healthy and be able to challenge for the title. Go Celtics!

[Duffman100]

I went Dipo here only because Jokic is so bad on defense. But I'm open to being convinced ha.

Maybe I think Jokic is worse than he is.

[HoopsterJones]

Also - I've seen Kyrie rank highly for like the past 5 polls with no one commenting on why. I think there's an argument to be made for him at this point but I'd like to see someone make it otherwise I'm gonna assume there's just a disproportionate amount of C's fans here.

11th in ppg
3rd in pts/100 for players with significant minutes
8th in ws/48
5th in OBPM
8th in overall BPM
7th in eFG% and 8th in TS% for players with 20+ ppg
2nd lowest TO% among high usage PGs
Highest WS/48, BPM and VORP on a team that was fighting for the 1 seed when he went down

I'm sure there are plenty of others I could pull up too. Then there is the eye test, of course. Irving simply looks like an elite player, and one of the best in the game, when you watch him.

I can understand arguments for Oladipo, Jokic and Dame, but the ones saying that Irving shouldnt even be considered near the 12th best player are ignorant.

I cant pretend to speak for all Celtics fans on this board, but my guess is that most Celtics fans are staying quiet mostly because they dont care that much about the opinion of the RealGM GB - which taken as a whole has gotten a lot of things wrong about the Celtics in the last few years. Just one example: Many people here were predicting significant drops in his numbers, particularly efficiency, with the Celtics because he no longer had Lebron drawing attention away, and then even moreso when Hayward went down. Those people were wrong. He had career-best numbers in pts/100, Ortg, Drtg, rb/100, FG%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP.

I know for myself, I just dont care that much how any of the Celtics are ranked. Real GM could rank all of them outside the top 50 for all I care. I just want them to stay healthy and be able to challenge for the title. Go Celtics!

Oh I disagree. Celtics fans have been on the General Board mixing it up with Raptors/Sixers fans for weeks. They definitely care about the opinions being expressed on the GB.

[ITYSL]

Also - I've seen Kyrie rank highly for like the past 5 polls with no one commenting on why. I think there's an argument to be made for him at this point but I'd like to see someone make it otherwise I'm gonna assume there's just a disproportionate amount of C's fans here.

11th in ppg
3rd in pts/100 for players with significant minutes
8th in ws/48
5th in OBPM
8th in overall BPM
7th in eFG% and 8th in TS% for players with 20+ ppg
2nd lowest TO% among high usage PGs
Highest WS/48, BPM and VORP on a team that was fighting for the 1 seed when he went down

I'm sure there are plenty of others I could pull up too. Then there is the eye test, of course. Irving simply looks like an elite player, and one of the best in the game, when you watch him.

I can understand arguments for Oladipo, Jokic and Dame, but the ones saying that Irving shouldnt even be considered near the 12th best player are ignorant.

I cant pretend to speak for all Celtics fans on this board, but my guess is that most Celtics fans are staying quiet mostly because they dont care that much about the opinion of the RealGM GB - which taken as a whole has gotten a lot of things wrong about the Celtics in the last few years. Just one example: Many people here were predicting significant drops in his numbers, particularly efficiency, with the Celtics because he no longer had Lebron drawing attention away, and then even moreso when Hayward went down. Those people were wrong. He had career-best numbers in pts/100, Ortg, Drtg, rb/100, FG%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP.

I know for myself, I just dont care that much how any of the Celtics are ranked. Real GM could rank all of them outside the top 50 for all I care. I just want them to stay healthy and be able to challenge for the title. Go Celtics!

Oh I disagree. Celtics fans have been on the General Board mixing it up with Raptors/Sixers fans for weeks. They definitely care about the opinions being expressed on the GB.

LOL, best cherrypick ever

[iggymcfrack]

It’s between Jokic/Oladipo for me and I went with Jokic by a hair. I’m not surprised that Kyrie is going to go either here or the next pick given how popular a player he is, but I do strongly disagree with it. Honestly based on last season he might not even be the #1 Celtic for me, though if we're projecting into next season (if healthy) he would be. Add Ben Simmons.

He’s never been healthy his entire career so saying “if healthy” isn’t even really valid. Here are his games played by year:

51, 59, 71, 75 (missed NBA Finals), 53, 72, 60 (missed entire playoffs)

I think he’s probably the biggest injury risk in the Top 40 other than Cousins or Embiid. This really needs to be taken into account IMO.

I agree with you he’s not the best Celtic. Horford has been much more impactful for years and was clearly the best Celtic last year. Tatum had a similar impact to Kyrie as a rookie and will surely be getting better. And Hayward was playing at a similar level even before getting to play for his college coach/the best coach in NBA history. Id say Kyrie will be lucky if he can manage to be a Top 3 Celtic this year.

[HoopsterJones]

11th in ppg
3rd in pts/100 for players with significant minutes
8th in ws/48
5th in OBPM
8th in overall BPM
7th in eFG% and 8th in TS% for players with 20+ ppg
2nd lowest TO% among high usage PGs
Highest WS/48, BPM and VORP on a team that was fighting for the 1 seed when he went down

I'm sure there are plenty of others I could pull up too. Then there is the eye test, of course. Irving simply looks like an elite player, and one of the best in the game, when you watch him.

I can understand arguments for Oladipo, Jokic and Dame, but the ones saying that Irving shouldnt even be considered near the 12th best player are ignorant.

I cant pretend to speak for all Celtics fans on this board, but my guess is that most Celtics fans are staying quiet mostly because they dont care that much about the opinion of the RealGM GB - which taken as a whole has gotten a lot of things wrong about the Celtics in the last few years. Just one example: Many people here were predicting significant drops in his numbers, particularly efficiency, with the Celtics because he no longer had Lebron drawing attention away, and then even moreso when Hayward went down. Those people were wrong. He had career-best numbers in pts/100, Ortg, Drtg, rb/100, FG%, eFG%, TS%, PER, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP.

I know for myself, I just dont care that much how any of the Celtics are ranked. Real GM could rank all of them outside the top 50 for all I care. I just want them to stay healthy and be able to challenge for the title. Go Celtics!

Oh I disagree. Celtics fans have been on the General Board mixing it up with Raptors/Sixers fans for weeks. They definitely care about the opinions being expressed on the GB.

LOL, best cherrypick ever

I quoted your entire post in response to what you posted. Not sure you understand what a cherrypick is.

But if you want me to express my opinion on Kyrie Irving as well, I think he’s a very good player worthy of being ranked at 12-13th when he’s healthy.

[thetruth95]

How can you view the poll when using the mobile app?

Sent from my G8343 using RealGM mobile app

[ITYSL]

I quoted your entire post in response to what you posted. Not sure you understand what a cherrypick is.

But if you want me to express my opinion on Kyrie Irving as well, I think he’s a very good player worthy of being ranked at 12-13th when he’s healthy.

Just because you quoted the entire post doesnt mean you didnt cherrypick. But w/e, water under the bridge. Glad you agree re:Irving

[HoopsterJones]

I quoted your entire post in response to what you posted. Not sure you understand what a cherrypick is.

But if you want me to express my opinion on Kyrie Irving as well, I think he’s a very good player worthy of being ranked at 12-13th when he’s healthy.

Just because you quoted the entire post doesnt mean you didnt cherrypick. But w/e, water under the bridge. Glad you agree re:Irving

Yo half your post is about the General Board being wrong about Kyrie predictions as being why you think Celtics fans don’t care about the General Board opinion. HALF.
Cherrypick what?

Whatever, I’m done with you.

[mowcrowbar]

Toss up between Kyrie and Jokic for me.

Pretty much. But seeing as how Irving contributed more, cause he played more seasons, while jury's still out on what Jokic's potential is. I went with Irving.

[ElectricMayhem]

I voted Jokic for the 3rd time in a row and am nominating Simmons for the 2nd time in a row.


And holy hell on Kyrie Irving's votes. I have a feeling Yabusele will be voted in by the end of this.

Assuming Jokic holds on (which isn't looking like a safe bet right now), I'm sure his votes will be peppered evenly between Draymond, Gobert, Lillard, and Oladipo next round meaning the silent Kyrie bloc will grab #13. Unless those of us who think all four of the aforementioned players are better than Kyrie create our own bloc and agree to vote for the one of those four who ends up with the most votes at the end of this round.

[lakerz12]

Voted Jokic.

Lillard, Kyrie, Oladipo, and Green are close behind IMO.

Agree with adding Cousins to the poll.

[Luigi]

.

[Luigi]

Kyrie is the right answer here, rooting for him to pull ahead.

He's proven a lot in NBA playoff games.

[ITYSL]

I quoted your entire post in response to what you posted. Not sure you understand what a cherrypick is.

But if you want me to express my opinion on Kyrie Irving as well, I think he’s a very good player worthy of being ranked at 12-13th when he’s healthy.

Just because you quoted the entire post doesnt mean you didnt cherrypick. But w/e, water under the bridge. Glad you agree re:Irving

Yo half your post is about the General Board being wrong about Kyrie predictions as being why you think Celtics fans don’t care about the General Board opinion. HALF.
Cherrypick what?

Whatever, I’m done with you.

Ok lol. Chill dude

[yoyoboy]

Kyrie is the right answer here, rooting for him to pull ahead.

He's proven a lot in NBA playoff games.

Draymond has honestly proven more in playoff situations if we’re going that route.

[Luigi]

Kyrie is the right answer here, rooting for him to pull ahead.

He's proven a lot in NBA playoff games.

Draymond has honestly proven more in playoff situations if we’re going that route.

Not in the same way. Green is a very important player for a very good team, but I think that's a different thing we're looking at.

Irving has hit game winners in the NBA finals and gone toe to toe with a top 3 player. Jokic hasn't proven that kind of thing yet.

[ElectricMayhem]

Kyrie is the right answer here, rooting for him to pull ahead.

He's proven a lot in NBA playoff games.

Draymond has honestly proven more in playoff situations if we’re going that route.

If Jokic had been on the Cavs and Kyrie on the Nuggets, we'd be talking about how Jokic had proven himself in the playoffs and Kyrie can't even lead a team to the playoffs. Having being given the opportunity to perform on the big stage doesn't make one better.