SlowPaced wrote:#12 is way too high for a center that can't defend. Jokic is a special talent offensively and has a case for Top 15, but there's a difference between a guard who can't play defense and a center who can't play defense. I'd take Kyrie, Lillard, Oladipo, George, Draymond and Gobert over him.
Voted Kyrie Irving. I think the forum is badly suffering from recency and injury bias when it comes to Kyrie and also ignoring the added level of difficulty in the Playoffs. Kyrie is arguably the most battle-tested offensive player among non-superstars. His ability to make shots against elite defensive coverage is getting extremely underrated here. We just saw Lillard completely disappear against the Pelicans and get swept and some folks are voting for him over Kyrie. Really? You really think Kyrie would get shut down like that?
I really have the feeling RealGM has gone way too far up its own arse when it comes to scoring. Knowing casual fans overrate scoring is one thing, but underrating the ability to score to the extent RealGM does is something else. Scoring has to come from somewhere. Having a player that can still get his points against elite defense is of tremendous help. It really boggles my mind that the impact of isolation scoring against elite defenses in the Playoffs still gets ignored despite '16 Finals and '18 Conference Finals making a significant point to that end.
People who are familiar with my posts on the PC Board will know that I'm an advocate of advanced stats, but the way isolation scorers are portrayed in impact stats points to a fault in the stats, not the other way around. Three point specialist role players keep ranking higher offensively than excellent isolation scorers do. Something's off there. People's view of Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson, Carmelo Anthony and the like has suffered immensely as a result of this and while I do think there's something to take away from it, I think the discrediting has become way too crazy. We now have guys genuinely saying that they'd take Robert Covington over peak Carmelo Anthony, that's insanity.
As someone who voted for Jokic in the last poll, I'm not blind to his defensive shortcomings, but imo his offensive talent clearly mitigates a flaw in his game that on a certain level I think is blown out of proportion. Advanced stats may overrate Jokic's defensive impact, but on the other extreme I truly don't think he's as bad as people make him seem. He's a smart defender that positions himself well and can grab defensive boards, and that's really all he needs to provide on that end given his supreme offensive lift. Perhaps that makes him less portable as the centerpiece to a team, but I think even with relatively average defensive personnel this Denver team with Jokic would make the playoffs at minimum.
As far as Kyrie, I agree that his scoring is underrated by real gm, although I think RPM/RAPM paints a generally accurate picture of where he ranks on offense alone, which is pretty high anyway. But his reputation as a clear defensive liability is confirmed by both the eye test and advanced metrics, he's not really even passable on D. A guy like Jokic who's defense I consider average to below average for a center still provides more impact on that end than Kyrie could ever hope to bring. Given that to this point I see them as comparable offensively, I don't think it's all that crazy to take Jokic over Irving. Personally I have Irving in the 15 - 20 range, but I can understand why someone might see him higher than I do. If anything, the player I think is getting seriously underrated in this poll is Towns, who might be better offensively than either Jokic or Irving. Especially taking into account that we're not just looking at their current status but where we think they'll rank the upcoming season, I find it hard to justify leaving Towns out of the top 10 - 15.
