RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#14 2018-19 TIEBREAKER

[iggymcfrack]

Wtf. Some of the Kyrie hate is unreal. Guys been getting it his whole career. I think he's become a victim of media hype, and so now people are going overboard the other way.

What's the argument for Kyrie over Gobert? Almost all advanced metrics paint Gobert as the more impactful player.

Kyrie was better in WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Gobert was better in On/Off NetRtg and RAPM.

And besides, advanced metrics are only used on this board when convenient. For example, Gobert received 50 votes in the most recent poll compared to KAT getting 5, despite KAT leading Gobert across the board in advanced metrics: WS/48, BPM, PIE, PIPM, On/Off NetRtg and RAPM (and even in RPM for those who like to cite that). And that comparison is more sound than Gobert vs. Irving because Gobert and KAT play the same position. Pretty much the same goes for Lillard and Irving - Lillard leads in most advanced stats, but Irving received many more votes.

:shrug:

Gobert was injured last year and had much better advanced metrics the year before, and even last year he’s incredibly close to Towns. It’s a completely different situation from Kyrie who’s not just a little behind for one season, but way behind for the best of any of his seasons.

[CelticsLV]

Wtf. Some of the Kyrie hate is unreal. Guys been getting it his whole career. I think he's become a victim of media hype, and so now people are going overboard the other way.

What's the argument for Kyrie over Gobert? Almost all advanced metrics paint Gobert as the more impactful player.

Kyrie is not useless against Rockets or Warriors (or any team for that matter). When it's big boys time.

Watch on YouTube

The impact levels are off the charts! You can't handle all that impact!

So much impact that Utah was actually better with him off the floor against Rockets.

[bisme37]

Lol at this point it's pretty clear that Kyrie is going to be the runner up in every poll until he's finally named the 400th best player in the NBA.

[illuminati666]

Wtf. Some of the Kyrie hate is unreal. Guys been getting it his whole career. I think he's become a victim of media hype, and so now people are going overboard the other way.

What's the argument for Kyrie over Gobert? Almost all advanced metrics paint Gobert as the more impactful player.

Kyrie was better in WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Gobert was better in On/Off NetRtg and RAPM.

And besides, advanced metrics are only used on this board when convenient. For example, Gobert received 50 votes in the most recent poll compared to KAT getting 5, despite KAT leading Gobert across the board in advanced metrics: WS/48, BPM, PIE, PIPM, On/Off NetRtg and RAPM (and even in RPM for those who like to cite that). And that comparison is more sound than Gobert vs. Irving because Gobert and KAT play the same position. Pretty much the same goes for Lillard and Irving - Lillard leads in most advanced stats, but Irving received many more votes.

:shrug:

Well said, Kyrie has become underrated in this board bc of selectively looking at some stats

[ZemGOAT]

Gobert easily

[ElectricMayhem]

Lol at this point it's pretty clear that Kyrie is going to be the runner up in every poll until he's finally named the 400th best player in the NBA.

I'm switching my vote over to Kyrie at 17, so you've got me on your side...eventually.

[Tai]

Wtf. Some of the Kyrie hate is unreal. Guys been getting it his whole career. I think he's become a victim of media hype, and so now people are going overboard the other way.

What's the argument for Kyrie over Gobert? Almost all advanced metrics paint Gobert as the more impactful player.

Kyrie was better in WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Gobert was better in On/Off NetRtg and RAPM.

And besides, advanced metrics are only used on this board when convenient. For example, Gobert received 50 votes in the most recent poll compared to KAT getting 5, despite KAT leading Gobert across the board in advanced metrics: WS/48, BPM, PIE, PIPM, On/Off NetRtg and RAPM (and even in RPM for those who like to cite that). And that comparison is more sound than Gobert vs. Irving because Gobert and KAT play the same position. Pretty much the same goes for Lillard and Irving - Lillard leads in most advanced stats, but Irving received many more votes.

:shrug:

Nah bruh you don't understand, it's RPM or bust now. WS/48 and BPM are so last year, until they don't benefit Kyrie, then they'll suddenly be relevant again.

[Prez]

What's the argument for Kyrie over Gobert? Almost all advanced metrics paint Gobert as the more impactful player.

Kyrie was better in WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Gobert was better in On/Off NetRtg and RAPM.

And besides, advanced metrics are only used on this board when convenient. For example, Gobert received 50 votes in the most recent poll compared to KAT getting 5, despite KAT leading Gobert across the board in advanced metrics: WS/48, BPM, PIE, PIPM, On/Off NetRtg and RAPM (and even in RPM for those who like to cite that). And that comparison is more sound than Gobert vs. Irving because Gobert and KAT play the same position. Pretty much the same goes for Lillard and Irving - Lillard leads in most advanced stats, but Irving received many more votes.

:shrug:

Nah bruh you don't understand, it's RPM or bust now. WS/48 and BPM are so last year, until they don't benefit Kyrie, then they'll suddenly be relevant again.

To be fair to clyde, he was specifically referring to impact and stats like BPM & WS/48 are simply bad for that. Stats like RPM, RAPM, net rating, on/off aren't perfect by any stretch but they're faaaaar better stats for evaluating impact.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Kyrie is an extremely talented scorer and will give you very good production/efficiency. It's how that actually helps the team, and while he absolutely does help a team a lot, by the numbers he hasn't been quite as big of a difference maker as guys like Gobert, Butler, and others in that general range.

[Tai]

What's the argument for Kyrie over Gobert? Almost all advanced metrics paint Gobert as the more impactful player.

Kyrie was better in WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Gobert was better in On/Off NetRtg and RAPM.

And besides, advanced metrics are only used on this board when convenient. For example, Gobert received 50 votes in the most recent poll compared to KAT getting 5, despite KAT leading Gobert across the board in advanced metrics: WS/48, BPM, PIE, PIPM, On/Off NetRtg and RAPM (and even in RPM for those who like to cite that). And that comparison is more sound than Gobert vs. Irving because Gobert and KAT play the same position. Pretty much the same goes for Lillard and Irving - Lillard leads in most advanced stats, but Irving received many more votes.

:shrug:

Gobert was injured last year and had much better advanced metrics the year before, and even last year he’s incredibly close to Towns. It’s a completely different situation from Kyrie who’s not just a little behind for one season, but way behind for the best of any of his seasons.

And Gobert was hurt for 2015-2016 only playing 61 games, and even got hurt for the 2016-2017 season, missing two playoff games. You've used Kyrie's health against him before, but how is Gobert anymore a sure thing in that category?

[mefromthefuture]

KAT



but for real i went uncle drew

[Funcrusher]

There are people in this thread that don't know how to evaluate and weigh "advanced" metrics. That's all I'll say.

[mefromthefuture]

There are people in this thread that don't know how to evaluate and weigh "advanced" metrics. That's all I'll say.

Yeah all the Gobert voters

[Funcrusher]

There are people in this thread that don't know how to evaluate and weigh "advanced" metrics. That's all I'll say.

Yeah all the Gobert voters

Nah.

[mefromthefuture]

There are people in this thread that don't know how to evaluate and weigh "advanced" metrics. That's all I'll say.

Yeah all the Gobert voters

Nah.[/quote

Gobert gives you nothing on offense and cant play against the Warriors or Rockets

Yes Kyrie and my KAT are not as good on defense yes but the offense side of basketball matters too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Karl-Anthony+Towns&player_id1_select=Karl-Anthony+Towns&y1=2018&player_id1=townska01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Rudy+Gobert&player_id2_select=Rudy+Gobert&y2=2018&player_id2=goberru01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id3_select=Kyrie+Irving&y3=2018&player_id3=irvinky01&idx=players

[Funcrusher]

Yeah all the Gobert voters

Nah.[/quote

Gobert gives you nothing on offense and cant play against the Warriors or Rockets

Yes Kyrie and my KAT are not as good on defense yes but the offense side of basketball matters too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Karl-Anthony+Towns&player_id1_select=Karl-Anthony+Towns&y1=2018&player_id1=townska01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Rudy+Gobert&player_id2_select=Rudy+Gobert&y2=2018&player_id2=goberru01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id3_select=Kyrie+Irving&y3=2018&player_id3=irvinky01&idx=players

Nothing there illustrates your point very well.

[Tai]

Nah.[/quote

Gobert gives you nothing on offense and cant play against the Warriors or Rockets

Yes Kyrie and my KAT are not as good on defense yes but the offense side of basketball matters too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Karl-Anthony+Towns&player_id1_select=Karl-Anthony+Towns&y1=2018&player_id1=townska01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Rudy+Gobert&player_id2_select=Rudy+Gobert&y2=2018&player_id2=goberru01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id3_select=Kyrie+Irving&y3=2018&player_id3=irvinky01&idx=players

Nothing there illustrates your point very well.

The only thing that seems to favor Gobert is the net rating??

[ITYSL]

What's the argument for Kyrie over Gobert? Almost all advanced metrics paint Gobert as the more impactful player.

Kyrie was better in WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Gobert was better in On/Off NetRtg and RAPM.

And besides, advanced metrics are only used on this board when convenient. For example, Gobert received 50 votes in the most recent poll compared to KAT getting 5, despite KAT leading Gobert across the board in advanced metrics: WS/48, BPM, PIE, PIPM, On/Off NetRtg and RAPM (and even in RPM for those who like to cite that). And that comparison is more sound than Gobert vs. Irving because Gobert and KAT play the same position. Pretty much the same goes for Lillard and Irving - Lillard leads in most advanced stats, but Irving received many more votes.

:shrug:

Gobert was injured last year and had much better advanced metrics the year before, and even last year he’s incredibly close to Towns. It’s a completely different situation from Kyrie who’s not just a little behind for one season, but way behind for the best of any of his seasons.

Yeah, I know it's a different situation. Gobert and Towns play the same position, while Gobert and Irving don't, so comparing advanced stats between Gobert and Towns is a better comparison.

Kyrie was injured last year too, and he still beat out Gobert in multiple advanced stats, which I already listed: WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Funny how you use Kyrie's health last year against him, but then actually use Gobert's poor health last season as some kind of argument for him.

But you do you, brother, I understand. Half the posts in the last few poll threads have been you arguing against Kyrie. All good.

[mefromthefuture]

Nah.[/quote

Gobert gives you nothing on offense and cant play against the Warriors or Rockets

Yes Kyrie and my KAT are not as good on defense yes but the offense side of basketball matters too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Karl-Anthony+Towns&player_id1_select=Karl-Anthony+Towns&y1=2018&player_id1=townska01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Rudy+Gobert&player_id2_select=Rudy+Gobert&y2=2018&player_id2=goberru01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id3_select=Kyrie+Irving&y3=2018&player_id3=irvinky01&idx=players

Nothing there illustrates your point very well.

Okay give me your acceptable advanced stats? Let me guess like Jokic fans the only ones that are good are the ones in Gobert favor?

[ITYSL]

Kyrie was better in WS/48, BPM, PIE and PIPM. Gobert was better in On/Off NetRtg and RAPM.

And besides, advanced metrics are only used on this board when convenient. For example, Gobert received 50 votes in the most recent poll compared to KAT getting 5, despite KAT leading Gobert across the board in advanced metrics: WS/48, BPM, PIE, PIPM, On/Off NetRtg and RAPM (and even in RPM for those who like to cite that). And that comparison is more sound than Gobert vs. Irving because Gobert and KAT play the same position. Pretty much the same goes for Lillard and Irving - Lillard leads in most advanced stats, but Irving received many more votes.

:shrug:

Nah bruh you don't understand, it's RPM or bust now. WS/48 and BPM are so last year, until they don't benefit Kyrie, then they'll suddenly be relevant again.

To be fair to clyde, he was specifically referring to impact and stats like BPM & WS/48 are simply bad for that. Stats like RPM, RAPM, net rating, on/off aren't perfect by any stretch but they're faaaaar better stats for evaluating impact.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Kyrie is an extremely talented scorer and will give you very good production/efficiency. It's how that actually helps the team, and while he absolutely does help a team a lot, by the numbers he hasn't been quite as big of a difference maker as guys like Gobert, Butler, and others in that general range.

PIPM and RPM are both RAPM with priors, except PIPM's priors are documented and can be tested, while RPM's priors are largely a mystery because ESPN is ESPN. In addition, PIPM is a much less noisy stat that has fewer outliers such as Tyus Jones having a higher RPM than Kyrie Irving.

[Funcrusher]

Nah.[/quote

Gobert gives you nothing on offense and cant play against the Warriors or Rockets

Yes Kyrie and my KAT are not as good on defense yes but the offense side of basketball matters too.


https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Karl-Anthony+Towns&player_id1_select=Karl-Anthony+Towns&y1=2018&player_id1=townska01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Rudy+Gobert&player_id2_select=Rudy+Gobert&y2=2018&player_id2=goberru01&idx=players&player_id3_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id3_select=Kyrie+Irving&y3=2018&player_id3=irvinky01&idx=players

Nothing there illustrates your point very well.

The only thing that seems to favor Gobert is the net rating??

I already addressed this issue with you in the thread where you felt it was asinine to rank Embiid over Irving. It's not about the quantity of statistics but rather the quality. BPM and WS are fine but can be skewed towards certain aspects of production and thus should not be the totality of any argument. RPM/RAPM has it's flaws too but they are most certainly more reliable than box score stats in judging impact. How you fail to see this is beyond me.