RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#15 2018-19

[lakerz12]

Kyrie's going to lose in another tiebreaker lol.

[Catchall]

So 8 of the top 10 players are in the western conference. Figures.

[Asif16]

I wouldnt be opposed to Kyrie winning this poll, even though I went with Lilliard for now. Kyrie is def coming up soon for me

[Catchall]

I went with Lillard, but Ben Simmons is starting to look interesting to me. I think he might be a top 20 player this year.

[Atmanne]

Nominating Aldridge again, who I guess is the most underrated all-nba player ever.

[donkeylips]

Cousins

[Infinite Llamas]

I've had Kyrie at around #15 all along. He isn't better than Oladipo or Gobert. Oladipo is 20ppg and an elite defender. Gobert is the best defender in the league. Kyrie has a lot of mythos about him and a cult following of sorts so him getting a bunch of votes starting at #10 or #11 isn't shocking. I think the C's almost reaching the Finals without him may have altered some opinions on him as well, fairly or unfairly.

[Tai]

That's what we're explaining to you. There are a lot of Celtics fans on this board, which have obviously been voting for Irving. Just because he was runner up at 14 doesn't mean he's going to win 15 because the votes will be redistributed accordingly, while the same people have been voting for Kyrie for the last 5 slots.

There are a lot of Raptors fans on this board too, yet Lowry since being added has virtually been invisible in the polling. Why do you think that is? Are you claiming Celtics fans are that less objective than Raptors fans?

EDIT: If anything, I think SuperDario put it best, but I argue taking that viewpoint concedes that something is brewing in the underbelly of these polls, and it's not just Celtics fans seeing things.

Maybe Raptors fans are a bit more realistic when it comes to Lowry than Celtics fans are with Irving?

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "something is brewing". You think people are purposely voting against Irving? Why? Who do you think Kyrie should replace on the poll?

Why exactly? Man, do you want a laundry list?

1) Supposedly a lotta Celtics fans? Not that I think every single one cares about this poll, but maybe some think it'd be funny to vote against Kyrie outta spite if they think several Celtics fans are watching? I think this has also extended into other discussions, such as stating Kyrie will leave for reasons that aren't basketball, or that he shoulda been traded cause Rozier proved he was better these past playoffs. Whether you buy it or not, I think you've been long enough to know how Celtics fans think the GB perceives the team, and subsequently the players on it.

2) As I've said before, some have shown in this topic that they don't like Kyrie for some reason as opposed to the team and/or general fanbase, whether he think he's overhyped or don't like his game; subpar defense for example, which while understandable seems to be all they'll talk about. You've seen it in this topic, someone going as far as to claim that Kyrie may not be a top 3 impactful player on the Celtics, yet considering what he can still bring somehow not having them as a top 3 team in the league. Some might just be Lebron fans who are still mad Kyrie left (I think a certain someone took the Cavs logo off their profile to potentially hide this, but that's not material in and of itself), and voting against him is a way of projection. I know from previous topic the Flat Earth stuff rubbed people the wrong way more than I expected, especially considering it's looking like he simply went along with it as opposed to actually believing the Earth's flat.

To answer your question on who'd I put Kyrie over in the poll, I'd be shocked if Kyrie in complete objectivity is not #15; while I suppose an argument can be made for Kyrie over someone like Embiid or Gobert who while are seen as future stars are a) not necessarily always healthy and b) haven't proven it in the playoffs like Kyrie has, I don't think it's a slam dunk Kyrie is over them so whatever. However, someone like Lillard who is basically Kyrie without the playoff resume? Nope, I take Kyrie. Draymond? People knock down Kyrie for being with Lebron but don't do the same to Draymond (supposedly recruited Durant)? Hmm, ok then, I definitely take Kyrie. If Kyrie falls below them, that will tell me something that I probably wasn't getting with the others.

EDIT: Also, on Raptors fans being more realistic (hmm hmm but anyway); you mean some taking Kyrie over Lowry?

[Cartuse]

I think there is indeed a bit of an overreaction against Kyrie, born out of the wild overrating to which he has been subject this past year or so. Yeah he's a good playoff performer, sure. But you gotta get the team to the playoffs first.
In my personal opinion he's a middle of the road star player, so somewhere around top 15 would be adequate.

I'm still going with Draymond though, and I can't see an argument for Gobert over Green. Yeah I know Green's team is stacked, but he's a major part of the reason why. He's most of the difference between these warriors and the ssol suns. Gobert is the best rim protector in the league, Draymond is the best overall defender, and on top of that he's a playmaker on offense. It's like saying Ben Wallace was better than Scottie Pippen, I don't get it...

[yanuary]

Dray, but ill check it tomorrow if Lillard and Kyrie will be close, ill change my vote for Dame

[XxIronChainzxX]

The stupid thing is Kyrie has been the runner up in 4 or 5 consecutive polls now, which makes zero logical sense. If he was the runner up at #11 it seems reasonable to say people thought he was the 12th best player in that poll, but he still hasn't been picked at #15. Only explanation I can think of is there's a group of people here who just aren't going to let him ever win until all 400 other NBA players have been chosen. Which, whatever floats people's boats, I guess lol.

That's not the only explanation. The other is that Kyrie has a core group of fans who hold him in much higher esteem than the majority on this forum. Strange your mind went to the hate explanation.

Huh? I didn't say anything about hate. I'm talking about basic logic. If he was the runner up at #10, and #11, and #12, and #13, how is he not picked yet? How can you be the runner up to the 10th best player but not even be the 14th best player? The results make no sense regardless of who is voting for whom.

Others have expanded on my point so I won't repeat it, but as to hate, see the bold. If the only explanation you can think of is that "there's a group of people here who just aren't going to let him ever win untill all 400 other NBA players have been chosen", what you're saying is that there is a dedicated group of Kyrie haters voting against him.

[XxIronChainzxX]

I just don't see it between Kyrie, Lillard, and Towns. They're all a similar type of player - offense first, not a defender, not exactly an ideal creator (for their position). I think, despite the efficiency %s, that Kyrie is the most talented scorer of the three, and that puts him ahead.

As for Kyrie vs. Dray, I get the value that Dray adds to the Dubs, but we've never seen him as the centerpiece of the team or being outside that system. It's just hard to judge a super roleplayer in comparison to a more traditional star player.

“Roleplayer” implies he only does one thing. That couldn’t be further from the truth. He’s been the best all-around defender in the league and arguably the most versatile too doing everything from staying with guards to jumping passing lanes to amazing help to rim protection. He leads the team in both assists AND rebounds, getting the team going offensively and still making it to the rim. And when the scorers have gone down and he’s been called upon, he’s been able to take a more active role scoring the basketball as well. He’s really one of the most well-rounded players in the NBA.

The only thing he’s not is a lead scorer. Well, that’s fine, that’s the one role on the entire team that he’s not required to fill. Just because he’s not a lead scorer doesn’t mean he’s not valuable though. We don’t do this in other sports. If you have the best all-around midfielder in the world in soccer who wins balls, creates for others, and does everything asked out of him as well as possible, but doesn’t score a lot of goals, people don’t say, “well yeah, but what if he was a striker, would he be good at that”. People don’t look at Lawrence Taylor or Luke Donald and say “well yeah, but they probably wouldn’t be as good as the quarterback”.

For a team to win a championship, they need somebody to score a bunch of points and they also need someone who can impact the game without taking a bunch of shots. Both have value. Why would you want the guy who’s the 15th best at doing the one thing over the guy who’s best in the world at the other thing? Every postseason impact stat has shown that Draymond is just as valuable to the Warriors’ championship runs as KD or Curry.

Theoretically he has the best chance imaginable to be the best player on a championship team in Boston. Best coach in NBA history, three other superstars of near equal talent, elite defensive team. It’s almost like one of these teams people builds on a forum question for “how do you build a winner around X player”. And what’s the result? He’s actually not even one of their 3 most impactful players because his defense is such a target that it drags down the team, and the team still isn’t one of the Top 3 teams in the league. Basically, it’s impossible to build a champion with Kyrie as “the guy”. So what’s the next best thing if you can’t be the champion as “the guy”? Just being the absolute best #2 you can be doing everything else on the floor. That’s Draymond. He’s the best possible sidekick that a superstar’s ever had since Scottie Pippen.

We disagree on the bolded. I don't think a roleplayer is a player who only does one thing well. I was simply trying to find a term do capture what Draymond does well, which is essentially everything but scoring on a team he isn't the 1st or 2nd (or even 3rd, now) option anyway.

I appreciate that you're a fan of Dray. I am too (well, not his attitude, but his game).

My view is that it's hard to really measure what Draymond does, how he contributes to GSW, how he could contribute to another team, with what Kyrie does, and how he can contribute to a team.

[XxIronChainzxX]

I still don't get how that explains it though. I'm not trying to complain about which players people want to rank where, I'm just saying (for example) if Kyrie was just tied with Gobert in the poll for #14, how is he now losing to Lillard at #15? If people thought Lillard was better then Kyrie it seems like he would have finished ahead of him in previous polls as well. And if C's fans were flooding the polls with votes, he would have been picked by now as other players fell out of the options. So it's just the inconsistency that's kind of confusing me and giving me a headache. I wasn't trying to start a flame war or even argue that Kyrie should be picked. It's just a strange result, is all, and my brain likes things to be more logical so it caught my attention. Sheesh.

That's what we're explaining to you. There are a lot of Celtics fans on this board, which have obviously been voting for Irving. Just because he was runner up at 14 doesn't mean he's going to win 15 because the votes will be redistributed accordingly, while the same people have been voting for Kyrie for the last 5 slots.

There are a lot of Raptors fans on this board too, yet Lowry since being added has virtually been invisible in the polling. Why do you think that is? Are you claiming Celtics fans are that less objective than Raptors fans?

EDIT: If anything, I think SuperDario put it best, but I argue taking that viewpoint concedes that something is brewing in the underbelly of these polls, and it's not just Celtics fans seeing things.

As to the Raptors fans, remember, we have Kawhi now. It's pretty easy to be objective when you've got a (basically) top 5 guy, especially when he's skipped a year and might be a malcontent.

[AdagioPace]

we all know Irving isn't transformative to his team as Draymond is.

[Clyde Frazier]

Fitting that kyrie and lillard are tied right now. They were neck and neck last season: http://bkref.com/tiny/X4dMQ

[thetruth95]

Please take Brandon Ingram off the too be added list. If you include him you can include just about anyone.

Sent from my G8343 using RealGM mobile app

[ITYSL]

Dray, but ill check it tomorrow if Lillard and Kyrie will be close, ill change my vote for Dame

@SuperDario, this is what Tai is alluding to. A poster admitted to this same thing in the poll where Jokic won, saying he switched his vote from Draymond (I think) to Jokic basically so Kyrie wouldnt win. So it's reasonable to think that there are more people doing the same thing - switching their vote to whomever is neck-and-neck with Kyrie at the last minute, so that Kyrie won't get picked. That would certainly help to explain why Kyrie has come in second in the last few polls by only a vote or two everytime.

OP should disallow switching your vote in these polls just like he did with the tiebreaker. It would prevent the potential of late-game vote manipulation.

All that said, I know you have been pulling for Dame for awhile now, so props. I think Kyrie and Dame are very similar players. I'm pulling for Kyrie because he has the playoff chops that Dame doesnt, and plus I'm a homer. Cheers.

[iggymcfrack]

I just don't see it between Kyrie, Lillard, and Towns. They're all a similar type of player - offense first, not a defender, not exactly an ideal creator (for their position). I think, despite the efficiency %s, that Kyrie is the most talented scorer of the three, and that puts him ahead.

As for Kyrie vs. Dray, I get the value that Dray adds to the Dubs, but we've never seen him as the centerpiece of the team or being outside that system. It's just hard to judge a super roleplayer in comparison to a more traditional star player.

“Roleplayer” implies he only does one thing. That couldn’t be further from the truth. He’s been the best all-around defender in the league and arguably the most versatile too doing everything from staying with guards to jumping passing lanes to amazing help to rim protection. He leads the team in both assists AND rebounds, getting the team going offensively and still making it to the rim. And when the scorers have gone down and he’s been called upon, he’s been able to take a more active role scoring the basketball as well. He’s really one of the most well-rounded players in the NBA.

The only thing he’s not is a lead scorer. Well, that’s fine, that’s the one role on the entire team that he’s not required to fill. Just because he’s not a lead scorer doesn’t mean he’s not valuable though. We don’t do this in other sports. If you have the best all-around midfielder in the world in soccer who wins balls, creates for others, and does everything asked out of him as well as possible, but doesn’t score a lot of goals, people don’t say, “well yeah, but what if he was a striker, would he be good at that”. People don’t look at Lawrence Taylor or Luke Donald and say “well yeah, but they probably wouldn’t be as good as the quarterback”.

For a team to win a championship, they need somebody to score a bunch of points and they also need someone who can impact the game without taking a bunch of shots. Both have value. Why would you want the guy who’s the 15th best at doing the one thing over the guy who’s best in the world at the other thing? Every postseason impact stat has shown that Draymond is just as valuable to the Warriors’ championship runs as KD or Curry.

Theoretically he has the best chance imaginable to be the best player on a championship team in Boston. Best coach in NBA history, three other superstars of near equal talent, elite defensive team. It’s almost like one of these teams people builds on a forum question for “how do you build a winner around X player”. And what’s the result? He’s actually not even one of their 3 most impactful players because his defense is such a target that it drags down the team, and the team still isn’t one of the Top 3 teams in the league. Basically, it’s impossible to build a champion with Kyrie as “the guy”. So what’s the next best thing if you can’t be the champion as “the guy”? Just being the absolute best #2 you can be doing everything else on the floor. That’s Draymond. He’s the best possible sidekick that a superstar’s ever had since Scottie Pippen.

We disagree on the bolded. I don't think a roleplayer is a player who only does one thing well. I was simply trying to find a term do capture what Draymond does well, which is essentially everything but scoring on a team he isn't the 1st or 2nd (or even 3rd, now) option anyway.

I appreciate that you're a fan of Dray. I am too (well, not his attitude, but his game).

My view is that it's hard to really measure what Draymond does, how he contributes to GSW, how he could contribute to another team, with what Kyrie does, and how he can contribute to a team.

I’m with you. I can’t stand him. I think he’s the whiniest cheap shot artist in the league. I was having fantasies about him getting arrested during the conference finals. But in a discussion topic like this, it means a lot more for me to see people who impact the game in ways other than scoring the basketball get recognized and he’s pretty much the perfect avatar for that. He’s probably the most elite well-balanced player since Bill Russell that’s not particularly good at scoring the basketball. I think he deserves to be recognized for what he’s done even if personally there’s nothing I’d like to do more than punch him in the balls.

[XxIronChainzxX]

“Roleplayer” implies he only does one thing. That couldn’t be further from the truth. He’s been the best all-around defender in the league and arguably the most versatile too doing everything from staying with guards to jumping passing lanes to amazing help to rim protection. He leads the team in both assists AND rebounds, getting the team going offensively and still making it to the rim. And when the scorers have gone down and he’s been called upon, he’s been able to take a more active role scoring the basketball as well. He’s really one of the most well-rounded players in the NBA.

The only thing he’s not is a lead scorer. Well, that’s fine, that’s the one role on the entire team that he’s not required to fill. Just because he’s not a lead scorer doesn’t mean he’s not valuable though. We don’t do this in other sports. If you have the best all-around midfielder in the world in soccer who wins balls, creates for others, and does everything asked out of him as well as possible, but doesn’t score a lot of goals, people don’t say, “well yeah, but what if he was a striker, would he be good at that”. People don’t look at Lawrence Taylor or Luke Donald and say “well yeah, but they probably wouldn’t be as good as the quarterback”.

For a team to win a championship, they need somebody to score a bunch of points and they also need someone who can impact the game without taking a bunch of shots. Both have value. Why would you want the guy who’s the 15th best at doing the one thing over the guy who’s best in the world at the other thing? Every postseason impact stat has shown that Draymond is just as valuable to the Warriors’ championship runs as KD or Curry.

Theoretically he has the best chance imaginable to be the best player on a championship team in Boston. Best coach in NBA history, three other superstars of near equal talent, elite defensive team. It’s almost like one of these teams people builds on a forum question for “how do you build a winner around X player”. And what’s the result? He’s actually not even one of their 3 most impactful players because his defense is such a target that it drags down the team, and the team still isn’t one of the Top 3 teams in the league. Basically, it’s impossible to build a champion with Kyrie as “the guy”. So what’s the next best thing if you can’t be the champion as “the guy”? Just being the absolute best #2 you can be doing everything else on the floor. That’s Draymond. He’s the best possible sidekick that a superstar’s ever had since Scottie Pippen.

We disagree on the bolded. I don't think a roleplayer is a player who only does one thing well. I was simply trying to find a term do capture what Draymond does well, which is essentially everything but scoring on a team he isn't the 1st or 2nd (or even 3rd, now) option anyway.

I appreciate that you're a fan of Dray. I am too (well, not his attitude, but his game).

My view is that it's hard to really measure what Draymond does, how he contributes to GSW, how he could contribute to another team, with what Kyrie does, and how he can contribute to a team.

I’m with you. I can’t stand him. I think he’s the whiniest cheap shot artist in the league. I was having fantasies about him getting arrested during the conference finals. But in a discussion topic like this, it means a lot more for me to see people who impact the game in ways other than scoring the basketball get recognized and he’s pretty much the perfect avatar for that. He’s probably the most elite well-balanced player since Bill Russell that’s not particularly good at scoring the basketball. I think he deserves to be recognized for what he’s done even if personally there’s nothing I’d like to do more than punch him in the balls.

That's totally a fair point, and I appreciated the time and thoughtful analysis that you put in for his game.

[lakerz12]

Please take Brandon Ingram off the too be added list. If you include him you can include just about anyone.

Sent from my G8343 using RealGM mobile app

But you're okay with IT being there??