RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#16 2018-19

ZemGOAT · Post #61 » by **ZemGOAT** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 1:37 pm

Draymond easily
Idk where thes kyrie votes are coming from in the past 5 polls
Kyrie should be in the 18-20 range

Post #62 » by **jazzfan1971** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 2:02 pm

How the frack is DeMarcus Cousins an option?

I'm not expecting him to be a top 150 player this year.

I guess we're just putting all the guys up there I think are over-rated now? (except where is Kevin Love then??)

AdagioPace · Post #63 » by **AdagioPace** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 2:04 pm

Draymond, not close.

Kyrie shouldn't be anywhere near the top 20 but he's getting pushed by a flood of votes since the 10th at least

wablty · Post #64 » by **wablty** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 2:18 pm

Vindicater wrote:Towns to be the best of this lot by the end of the next season.

Towns has been the best option for the last several picks. This is a popularity contest. Not to be taken seriously as any kind of assessment of value or ability.

iggymcfrack · Post #65 » by **iggymcfrack** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 2:25 pm

wablty wrote:
Vindicater wrote:Towns to be the best of this lot by the end of the next season.

Towns has been the best option for the last several picks. This is a popularity contest. Not to be taken seriously.

I like Towns and I’ll probably be voting for him soon, but it’s silly to act like there isn’t a good argument against him. Last year, in his first playoff series, he averaged 15/13/2 while getting burned repeatedly on defense. The Wolves were -14.7 with him on the floor and +2.2 with him on the bench. That’s obviously going to be concerning if you’re expecting him to anchor your team next year. If you’re building a team for one season only would you really choose him over a proven playoff performer like Draymond Green? Or even someone who had some bad series in the past before having an excellent playoffs last year like Kyle Lowry?

wablty · Post #66 » by **wablty** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 2:38 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
wablty wrote:
Vindicater wrote:Towns to be the best of this lot by the end of the next season.

Towns has been the best option for the last several picks. This is a popularity contest. Not to be taken seriously.

I like Towns and I’ll probably be voting for him soon, but it’s silly to act like there isn’t a good argument against him. Last year, in his first playoff series, he averaged 15/13/2 while getting burned repeatedly on defense. The Wolves were -14.7 with him on the floor and +2.2 with him on the bench. That’s obviously going to be concerning if you’re expecting him to anchor your team next year. If you’re building a team for one season only would you really choose him over a proven playoff performer like Draymond Green? Or even someone who had some bad series in the past before having an excellent playoffs last year like Kyle Lowry?

So what? It was his first playoffs against the team with the best record in the league. You're judging a guy by 5 games instead of 82. A lot of young stars suck in their first postseason trip. It's not likely to be indicative of future performance.

I do find it strange that the argument against him has now shifted from defense to a 5 game sample against Houston because their hasn't been a regular season argument for several players now (nevermind that he's still only 22 and very likely to keep improving).

iggymcfrack · Post #67 » by **iggymcfrack** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 2:48 pm

wablty wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
wablty wrote:
Towns has been the best option for the last several picks. This is a popularity contest. Not to be taken seriously.

I like Towns and I’ll probably be voting for him soon, but it’s silly to act like there isn’t a good argument against him. Last year, in his first playoff series, he averaged 15/13/2 while getting burned repeatedly on defense. The Wolves were -14.7 with him on the floor and +2.2 with him on the bench. That’s obviously going to be concerning if you’re expecting him to anchor your team next year. If you’re building a team for one season only would you really choose him over a proven playoff performer like Draymond Green? Or even someone who had some bad series in the past before having an excellent playoffs last year like Kyle Lowry?

So what? It was his first playoffs against the team with the best record in the league. You're judging a guy by 5 games instead of 82. A lot of young stars suck in their first postseason trip. It's not likely to indicative of future performance.

Yeah, and a lot of young stars suck in their second postseason trip too. Especially if they’re bigs that often get caught out of position and have trouble when they get switched onto guards.

Now, look I’m not saying he sucks or anything. The 82 games matter a lot and he was definitely very very good in the regular season. I expect him to be better this year. Like I said he’s going to be one of 3 guys I’m really considering once Draymond goes. But I still think it’s concerning.

Look at him compared to Simmons. He’s another guy that was pretty hyped as a Top 15 player as a young guy. As an actual rookie, not just a newbie to the playoffs, he actually had a very good series against Miami. Then, he goes to Boston against the best coach and the best defense in the league and gets put in a lockbox and all of a sudden he’s not even getting consideration even though he’s likely to improve much more from 2018 to 2019 than Towns.

Not saying Simmons is better than Towns going forward either, I’m honestly not sure who I’d pick between them. But there are a lot of guys that are close right now that have some very good arguments pro and con and I don’t think it’s reasonable to act like it’s some big outrage Towns hasn’t been chosen yet. If I was gonna rank the remaining players I’d have to do it in tiers. Something like:

Tier I: Draymond
Tier 2: Lowry, Simmons, Towns
Tier 3: George, Porter, Hayward, Mitchell, Tatum

yoyoboy · Post #68 » by **yoyoboy** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:03 pm

ZUDAMAGIC wrote:Makes no sense why kyrie has been voted second the last 100 polls but never wins one

Because the same crowd of people is voting for Kyrie every poll and then there are the people who take “impact” into heavy consideration who are voting for the same guy every poll: Kyrie’s challenger. With the way the poll works, people aren’t going to vote for their first choice unless he has a realistic chance of winning, so even though Kyrie’s come in second for a few polls in a row that’s only because he was the second most popular “first choice.” But if you scored points for being people’s second/third/fourth choice, Kyrie probably wouldn’t be second in all the polls because the crowd voting for the other guy usually doesn’t have Kyrie in their top 3 out of the poll choices.

iggymcfrack · Post #69 » by **iggymcfrack** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:10 pm

yoyoboy wrote:
ZUDAMAGIC wrote:Makes no sense why kyrie has been voted second the last 100 polls but never wins one

Because the same crowd of people is voting for Kyrie every poll and then there are the people who take “impact” into heavy consideration who are voting for the same guy every poll: Kyrie’s challenger. With the way the poll works, people aren’t going to vote for their first choice unless he has a realistic chance of winning, so even though Kyrie’s come in second for a few polls in a row that’s only because he was the second most popular “first choice.” But if you scored points for being people’s second/third/fourth choice, Kyrie probably wouldn’t be second in all the polls because the crowd voting for the other guy usually doesn’t have Kyrie in their top 3 out of the poll choices.

It’s still amazing how close they’ve all been though:

Vote for 11th: Embiid 55, Kyrie 26
Vote for 12th: Jokic 62, Kyrie 61
Vote for 13th: Oladipo 55, Kyrie 53
Vote for 14th: Gobert 50, Kyrie 50
Vote for 15th: Lillard 54, Kyrie 52
Current vote: Kyrie 51, Draymond 50

Embiid was the last blowout. Ever since they’ve all been within 2 votes.

illuminati666 · Post #70 » by **illuminati666** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:13 pm

babyjax13 wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:Giving up on this list, it's gotten terrible. Objectively looking at it, there's clearly a ton of bias in these votes. How the hell does a worse Kyrie Irving get ranked above Kyrie Irving.

26p 5r 6a 44/36/92 shooting, 7.7 OBPM, -1.1 DBPM, 5.9 VORP, 25.2 PER
vs.
24p 4r 5a 49/41/89 shooting, 6.9 OBPM, -.7 DBPM, 4.0 VORP, 25.0 PER

Their impact is pretty similar. Advance stats slightly favor Dame with offensive efficiency favoring Kyrie. Personally I'd take Kyrie but you are acting like its absurd to think Lillard performed better.

In the last thread I explained why numbers are distorting and why playoffs should be taken way more into account and showed why Kyrie is clearly the better player. Don't have the energy to do that again, if you're curious about my reasoning, check that. If not, agree to disagree.

Effigy · Post #71 » by **Effigy** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:23 pm

I voted Irving. Donovan. It helps should be added next.

Effigy · Post #72 » by **Effigy** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:25 pm

illuminati666 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:Giving up on this list, it's gotten terrible. Objectively looking at it, there's clearly a ton of bias in these votes. How the hell does a worse Kyrie Irving get ranked above Kyrie Irving.

26p 5r 6a 44/36/92 shooting, 7.7 OBPM, -1.1 DBPM, 5.9 VORP, 25.2 PER
vs.
24p 4r 5a 49/41/89 shooting, 6.9 OBPM, -.7 DBPM, 4.0 VORP, 25.0 PER

Their impact is pretty similar. Advance stats slightly favor Dame with offensive efficiency favoring Kyrie. Personally I'd take Kyrie but you are acting like its absurd to think Lillard performed better.

In the last thread I explained why numbers are distorting and why playoffs should be taken way more into account and showed why Kyrie is clearly the better player. Don't have the energy to do that again, if you're curious about my reasoning, check that. If not, agree to disagree.

The problem is, we have never seen Kyrie in the playoffs without Lebron. That should be taken into account too. Nobody ever designed their game plan into shutting down Kyrie in the playoffs. Lillard is always the focus of his opponents.

Post #73 » by **Duke4life831** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:39 pm

Effigy wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
26p 5r 6a 44/36/92 shooting, 7.7 OBPM, -1.1 DBPM, 5.9 VORP, 25.2 PER
vs.
24p 4r 5a 49/41/89 shooting, 6.9 OBPM, -.7 DBPM, 4.0 VORP, 25.0 PER

Their impact is pretty similar. Advance stats slightly favor Dame with offensive efficiency favoring Kyrie. Personally I'd take Kyrie but you are acting like its absurd to think Lillard performed better.

In the last thread I explained why numbers are distorting and why playoffs should be taken way more into account and showed why Kyrie is clearly the better player. Don't have the energy to do that again, if you're curious about my reasoning, check that. If not, agree to disagree.

The problem is, we have never seen Kyrie in the playoffs without Lebron. That should be taken into account too. Nobody ever designed their game plan into shutting down Kyrie in the playoffs. Lillard is always the focus of his opponents.

Do defenses only gameplan against one player? GS put their best perimeter defender on Kyrie ever possession. I don't get the idea that defenses didn't gameplan against Kyrie. They play 2 very different positions. Kyrie is going to get the best guard defender on him while LeBron is going to get the best F defender on him. Kawhi might be the only guy that could guard both. I'm sure teams gameplanned to stop both.

Atmanne · Post #74 » by **Atmanne** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:45 pm

Nominating Aldridge

Post #75 » by **FluLikeSymptoms** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:57 pm

Kyrie is unguardable at the highest level. F Boston, but Kyrie. This is too low.

illuminati666 · Post #76 » by **illuminati666** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 3:59 pm

Effigy wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
26p 5r 6a 44/36/92 shooting, 7.7 OBPM, -1.1 DBPM, 5.9 VORP, 25.2 PER
vs.
24p 4r 5a 49/41/89 shooting, 6.9 OBPM, -.7 DBPM, 4.0 VORP, 25.0 PER

Their impact is pretty similar. Advance stats slightly favor Dame with offensive efficiency favoring Kyrie. Personally I'd take Kyrie but you are acting like its absurd to think Lillard performed better.

In the last thread I explained why numbers are distorting and why playoffs should be taken way more into account and showed why Kyrie is clearly the better player. Don't have the energy to do that again, if you're curious about my reasoning, check that. If not, agree to disagree.

The problem is, we have never seen Kyrie in the playoffs without Lebron. That should be taken into account too. Nobody ever designed their game plan into shutting down Kyrie in the playoffs. Lillard is always the focus of his opponents.

If you watched the games, it wasn't like LeBron had all of the gravity allowing Kyrie to be open for his many point scored. Often it was isolations with a strong defender trying to guard Kyrie 1 on 1 but him abusing defenders. He carried the scoring load many nights and showed that offensively he could carry a team in the playoffs. He'd have 1,2,3 defenders thrown on him and still be able to somehow get to the basket regardless who it was. Lillard was just shut down by one Jrue Holiday, Kyrie would've still gotten his. That ability to dominate a defense and allow your team to turn to you whenever they need a bucket factors in to deciding how great a player is for me way more than some selected statisitcs.

Tai · Post #77 » by **Tai** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 4:08 pm

Effigy wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:
babyjax13 wrote:
26p 5r 6a 44/36/92 shooting, 7.7 OBPM, -1.1 DBPM, 5.9 VORP, 25.2 PER
vs.
24p 4r 5a 49/41/89 shooting, 6.9 OBPM, -.7 DBPM, 4.0 VORP, 25.0 PER

Their impact is pretty similar. Advance stats slightly favor Dame with offensive efficiency favoring Kyrie. Personally I'd take Kyrie but you are acting like its absurd to think Lillard performed better.

In the last thread I explained why numbers are distorting and why playoffs should be taken way more into account and showed why Kyrie is clearly the better player. Don't have the energy to do that again, if you're curious about my reasoning, check that. If not, agree to disagree.

The problem is, we have never seen Kyrie in the playoffs without Lebron. That should be taken into account too. Nobody ever designed their game plan into shutting down Kyrie in the playoffs. Lillard is always the focus of his opponents.

See, obviously Kyrie was out last playoffs, so if someone wanted to point to Kyrie's health that's fine. Other than that, it seems a bit of a stretch to say no one game planned for Kyrie, maybe what you really mean is Lebron got more attention, but it still meant having to contain Kyrie too. I also want to note that this same premise is why it was argued by some that Kyrie would struggle in the regular season for the Celtics, and he ended up being fine when healthy. So do you have actual doubts about Kyrie leading teams in the playoffs? Because as said before on Lillard, I have reason to have doubts about him now in the playoffs. And I'm not sure how Draymond being able to play with Curry, Durant, and Klay proves he could a team in the playoffs over Kyrie.

yoyoboy · Post #78 » by **yoyoboy** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 4:18 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
Effigy wrote:
illuminati666 wrote:
In the last thread I explained why numbers are distorting and why playoffs should be taken way more into account and showed why Kyrie is clearly the better player. Don't have the energy to do that again, if you're curious about my reasoning, check that. If not, agree to disagree.

The problem is, we have never seen Kyrie in the playoffs without Lebron. That should be taken into account too. Nobody ever designed their game plan into shutting down Kyrie in the playoffs. Lillard is always the focus of his opponents.

Do defenses only gameplan against one player? GS put their best perimeter defender on Kyrie ever possession. I don't get the idea that defenses didn't gameplan against Kyrie. They play 2 very different positions. Kyrie is going to get the best guard defender on him while LeBron is going to get the best F defender on him. Kawhi might be the only guy that could guard both. I'm sure teams gameplanned to stop both.

There’s no way Klay is a better perimeter defender than Iggy. Especially a couple years ago.

Asif16 · Post #79 » by **Asif16** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 4:44 pm

lol everyone one of these threads is turning into a Kyrie thread. People here are actually proving why Irving wasn't a top 15 player with statistics.

Seems like everyone who actually thinks Irving should be higher is because..."Dude have you seen him the playoffs", 'Dude have you seen him score", "Dude, do you not see his handles and the amount of people he crossed up" "He's elite bro"

Post #80 » by **Duke4life831** » Mon Sep 3, 2018 6:00 pm

yoyoboy wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Effigy wrote:
The problem is, we have never seen Kyrie in the playoffs without Lebron. That should be taken into account too. Nobody ever designed their game plan into shutting down Kyrie in the playoffs. Lillard is always the focus of his opponents.

Do defenses only gameplan against one player? GS put their best perimeter defender on Kyrie ever possession. I don't get the idea that defenses didn't gameplan against Kyrie. They play 2 very different positions. Kyrie is going to get the best guard defender on him while LeBron is going to get the best F defender on him. Kawhi might be the only guy that could guard both. I'm sure teams gameplanned to stop both.

There’s no way Klay is a better perimeter defender than Iggy. Especially a couple years ago.

In 2016 and 2017, yes I think Klay would do a better job defending Kyrie on the ball than Iggy.