2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued

[stoo]

It’s amazing how 2.5 bad games at Summer Leagues has turned JJ’s rookie season from very promising to “needs to allow the real professionals play”, “was a horrible pick at #4”, and “looks like he’ll never improve like Archie Goodwin” lmao. Suns fans have to be the quickest to give up on young players out of any fan base, pretty embarrassing stuff.

I agree. Now, does that mean I am opposed to trading Jackson. For the right player, sure. But not for even Goran Dragic would I trade Josh Jackson. Jackson had a couple bad summer gam league games - big deal. Its summer league basketball

well it's not about whether he was getting buckets in SL, but the way he played... I confess i haven't watched him extensively, but he doesn't seem like team first player, nor one with particularly high BBIQ... and it seems to me the suns are rebuilding around those qualities

[stoo]

can we send tj, jj, daniels or canaan and arthur or king for a good PG?

That is a big time package. Who do you have in mind as a good PG?

no one particularly.. that's why I asked we have 18 players right now...
I just noted players I'm not too much into... TJ and JJ as main treats, other two for better package.... can't decide between daniels and canaan (i think canaan might have solid relationship with Igor because Igor had to stop playing basketball because of injury and might motivate Canaan), and Arthur and KIng (Arthur has more experience, but King seems a good shooter and defender)

[Years90Suns]

Really this is the argument of TJ versus JJ.

The question is are we willing to ship TJ out for a PG knowing full well that Ariza is not a long term option. Knowing we are left with two unproven players in Jackson and Bridges at the future of the SF position. Knowing that neither is really starter material for this season and possibly next or maybe never. It's maddening to minimize TJ's shooting efficiency and then turn around and say Booker and JJ are going to be so much more efficient surrounded by a legitimate big man and shooters. Can't the same thing be said for Warren?

There are a lot of negatives to JJs game that are being conveniently overlooked. There are a lot of assumptions that JJ is going to miraculously improve. The point is if we need point guard we better ship out the right player because I'm tired of seeing all these ex-Suns players make the playoffs in starting and/or bench roles for other teams.

In fact, it is.
This is may be a moment to decide.

Firstly I would decide whether we need to DECIDE NOW.
Do we really need to decide now whether to trade for a good PG?
I mean, is it worth it to trade for a high quality PG, as he will be too old to bring us to a tittle when the rest of the youngsters are really ready to compete. Booker is 20. Ayton is 19 and bigs take time to develope. JJ is 20. And so on. Do we have to bring Lillard or Kemba and give picks, JJ or Warren?

Then, if so decided, we really need to decide whether we can trade JJ or Warren.
Would not be nice to play Ayton with to interchangeable forwards? Could Warren not be the ideal forward to play alongside Ayton?

I believe we could wait a little bit and see how Harrison develops here. Then next summer we could see how to adress the situation.

[Mr Puddles]

It’s amazing how 2.5 bad games at Summer Leagues has turned JJ’s rookie season from very promising to “needs to allow the real professionals play”, “was a horrible pick at #4”, and “looks like he’ll never improve like Archie Goodwin” lmao. Suns fans have to be the quickest to give up on young players out of any fan base, pretty embarrassing stuff.

I agree. Now, does that mean I am opposed to trading Jackson. For the right player, sure. But not for even Goran Dragic would I trade Josh Jackson. Jackson had a couple bad summer gam league games - big deal. Its summer league basketball

well it's not about whether he was getting buckets in SL, but the way he played... I confess i haven't watched him extensively, but he doesn't seem like team first player, nor one with particularly high BBIQ... and it seems to me the suns are rebuilding around those qualities

The thing about summer league is that we don't know what players have been instructed to do behind the scenes. Perhaps Josh Jackson had been working on his one on one game and was informed to try this out in a game situation. His summer league chucking isn't necessarily going to carry over into the regular season.

I have hope that once the season starts JJ will have learned that Booker is going to draw enough attention for him to cherry pick buckets - and that coach koko puts him in a position to do so.

[WeekapaugGroove]

We can argue the pluses and minuses of TJ all day long but the suns actions this summer are a pretty clear sign they aren't 100% sold on him. You don't bring in ariza and Bridges if you are.

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[Saberestar]

can we send tj, jj, daniels or canaan and arthur or king for a good PG?

That is a big time package. Who do you have in mind as a good PG?

no one particularly.. that's why I asked we have 18 players right now...
I just noted players I'm not too much into... TJ and JJ as main treats, other two for better package.... can't decide between daniels and canaan (i think canaan might have solid relationship with Igor because Igor had to stop playing basketball because of injury and might motivate Canaan), and Arthur and KIng (Arthur has more experience, but King seems a good shooter and defender)

We do not have 18 players on the roster, we have just 14 right now.

Arthur is only a contract, he does not have a real roster spot on the team.
He is gonna be used as a filler on another trade or just waived before the start of the season.

King has a contract as a two-way player.
He is not on the official 15 men roster.

Canaan has a non guaranteed contract.
The Suns are giving him the opportunity to fight for a roster spot in training camp, but not more than that for now.

Melton is not signed yet.
He is a second round pick, so the Suns can sign him on a long term contract, on a two-way contract or trade him again... or even release him.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We can argue the pluses and minuses of TJ all day long but the suns actions this summer are a pretty clear sign they aren't 100% sold on him. You don't bring in ariza and Bridges if you are.

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I thought they went after Bridges because in many drafts, that's a top 5 draft pick. Ryan has always been about adding value first and foremost.

I did not think Ariza was a vote of no confidence in anyone. It was a one year deal.

I thought the Anderson acquisition was primarily to move on from Chriss and Knight and secondarily to maximize our chances to win this season.

As for the glut of SFs, I do think the FO is open to dealing one of them, but I don't think it's because they don't like them and I don't think they'll sell low. The names we've heard - Kemba, Lillard, Rozier - are valuable players for whom value would have to be tendered in return. Trading TJ or JJ as part of a Lillard deal would not be a dump, obviously.

I don't pretend to know what we will do with the wing glut - aside from playing TJ at the 4 quite a bit and JJ at the guard spots. But I sincerely hope that if we can't find a *fair* deal for a quality vet PG who is a *significant* upgrade over Harrison/Okobo/Melton, that we just run with that crew. I think Melton is probably ahead of Okobo right now just based on where they are physically, and when I was reviewing teams' rosters prior to this trade, I expected Melton to be a contributor for the Rockets this season. Then again, Okobo might take the floor ahead of Melton because unlike Harrison and Melton, Okobo can shoot.

I'm also not eager to give up a long-term piece like TJ/JJ for a PG who won't be here long-term. And if we believe in the potential of Shaq/Okobo/Melton, should we really be looking for a long-term solution? Shouldn't we prefer to grab a stop gap like Dragic for expirings and the MIL pick? Perhaps we've been looking to reacquire Dragic and that's why we sent the MIA pick out, knowing that as long as we had that pick, MIA would take nothing less.

Eager to see where we go from here. Terribly eager to watch this team play under Koko. I am certain we will be much improved.

[BobbieL]

That is a big time package. Who do you have in mind as a good PG?

no one particularly.. that's why I asked we have 18 players right now...
I just noted players I'm not too much into... TJ and JJ as main treats, other two for better package.... can't decide between daniels and canaan (i think canaan might have solid relationship with Igor because Igor had to stop playing basketball because of injury and might motivate Canaan), and Arthur and KIng (Arthur has more experience, but King seems a good shooter and defender)

We do not have 18 players on the roster, we have just 14 right now.

Arthur is only a contract, he does not have a real roster spot on the team.
He is gonna be used as a filler on another trade or just waived before the start of the season.

King has a contract as a two-way player.
He is not on the official 15 men roster.

Canaan has a non guaranteed contract.
The Suns are giving him the opportunity to fight for a roster spot in training camp, but not more than that for now.

Melton is not signed yet.
He is a second round pick, so the Suns can sign him on a long term contract, on a two-way contract or trade him again... or even release him.

And I think your point about Arthur is a key one. He and Daniels add up to 10.6m of expiring contracts for trade purposes. Meaning say a Dragic deal comes along and the "base part of the deal" is Chandler, Okobo or Melton and first Suns pick not in hte lottery - well ARthur and Daniels could be added if Riley wanted to say dump Richardson on the Suns.

[bigfoot]

I'd still like to see a play for TJ McConnell

[WeekapaugGroove]

We can argue the pluses and minuses of TJ all day long but the suns actions this summer are a pretty clear sign they aren't 100% sold on him. You don't bring in ariza and Bridges if you are.

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I thought they went after Bridges because in many drafts, that's a top 5 draft pick. Ryan has always been about adding value first and foremost.

I did not think Ariza was a vote of no confidence in anyone. It was a one year deal.

I thought the Anderson acquisition was primarily to move on from Chriss and Knight and secondarily to maximize our chances to win this season.

As for the glut of SFs, I do think the FO is open to dealing one of them, but I don't think it's because they don't like them and I don't think they'll sell low. The names we've heard - Kemba, Lillard, Rozier - are valuable players for whom value would have to be tendered in return. Trading TJ or JJ as part of a Lillard deal would not be a dump, obviously.

I don't pretend to know what we will do with the wing glut - aside from playing TJ at the 4 quite a bit and JJ at the guard spots. But I sincerely hope that if we can't find a *fair* deal for a quality vet PG who is a *significant* upgrade over Harrison/Okobo/Melton, that we just run with that crew. I think Melton is probably ahead of Okobo right now just based on where they are physically, and when I was reviewing teams' rosters prior to this trade, I expected Melton to be a contributor for the Rockets this season. Then again, Okobo might take the floor ahead of Melton because unlike Harrison and Melton, Okobo can shoot.

I'm also not eager to give up a long-term piece like TJ/JJ for a PG who won't be here long-term. And if we believe in the potential of Shaq/Okobo/Melton, should we really be looking for a long-term solution? Shouldn't we prefer to grab a stop gap like Dragic for expirings and the MIL pick? Perhaps we've been looking to reacquire Dragic and that's why we sent the MIA pick out, knowing that as long as we had that pick, MIA would take nothing less.

Eager to see where we go from here. Terribly eager to watch this team play under Koko. I am certain we will be much improved.

Sure they can try to sell high all they want but if nothing materializes over the next month then one or two of those wings gets the short end of the minutes stick. Could be Bridges but that seems incredibly dumb to trade a future first for a 22 year old ready to play guy and not play him a bunch. Or it's Jackson and at that point you're hurting the value and development of a guy you took 4 in a loaded draft. Or it's TJ who if he's not playing 30+ mins a night his numbers won't look great and all of a sudden his contact becomes less appealing in a trade.

And that's just looking at it from a trade value perspective. The other problem is they are setting themselves up to have more unhappy players for like the 5th season in a row. Super


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[bwgood77]

It’s amazing how 2.5 bad games at Summer Leagues has turned JJ’s rookie season from very promising to “needs to allow the real professionals play”, “was a horrible pick at #4”, and “looks like he’ll never improve like Archie Goodwin” lmao. Suns fans have to be the quickest to give up on young players out of any fan base, pretty embarrassing stuff.

I don't think anyone's giving up on him. I just think some can be opposed to just jettisoning out others and penciling him as a surefire franchise cornerstone or definite starter.

JJ seems like a very hard worker and confident and has clear goals..even stating his goal was to at least get his 3pt% up to 30% this year and go from there.

What was a bit disappointing from summer league (though I don't think you can put too much stock into summer league) was that it seemed like the game had slowed down for him a bit and that he played a bit more controlled down the stretch of the regular season, and in summer league it seemed like we saw the same guy as at the beginning of the regular season, and of course against far worse competition.

It would have been nice to see him play a little more methodical (though I know it's not really his nature), pick his spots, and do a little orchestration of the offense at times, set some others up for easy plays, etc, instead of go back to 1 on 3 or 4.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We can argue the pluses and minuses of TJ all day long but the suns actions this summer are a pretty clear sign they aren't 100% sold on him. You don't bring in ariza and Bridges if you are.

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I thought they went after Bridges because in many drafts, that's a top 5 draft pick. Ryan has always been about adding value first and foremost.

I did not think Ariza was a vote of no confidence in anyone. It was a one year deal.

I thought the Anderson acquisition was primarily to move on from Chriss and Knight and secondarily to maximize our chances to win this season.

As for the glut of SFs, I do think the FO is open to dealing one of them, but I don't think it's because they don't like them and I don't think they'll sell low. The names we've heard - Kemba, Lillard, Rozier - are valuable players for whom value would have to be tendered in return. Trading TJ or JJ as part of a Lillard deal would not be a dump, obviously.

I don't pretend to know what we will do with the wing glut - aside from playing TJ at the 4 quite a bit and JJ at the guard spots. But I sincerely hope that if we can't find a *fair* deal for a quality vet PG who is a *significant* upgrade over Harrison/Okobo/Melton, that we just run with that crew. I think Melton is probably ahead of Okobo right now just based on where they are physically, and when I was reviewing teams' rosters prior to this trade, I expected Melton to be a contributor for the Rockets this season. Then again, Okobo might take the floor ahead of Melton because unlike Harrison and Melton, Okobo can shoot.

I'm also not eager to give up a long-term piece like TJ/JJ for a PG who won't be here long-term. And if we believe in the potential of Shaq/Okobo/Melton, should we really be looking for a long-term solution? Shouldn't we prefer to grab a stop gap like Dragic for expirings and the MIL pick? Perhaps we've been looking to reacquire Dragic and that's why we sent the MIA pick out, knowing that as long as we had that pick, MIA would take nothing less.

Eager to see where we go from here. Terribly eager to watch this team play under Koko. I am certain we will be much improved.

Sure they can try to sell high all they want but if nothing materializes over the next month then one or two of those wings gets the short end of the minutes stick. Could be Bridges but that seems incredibly dumb to trade a future first for a 22 year old ready to play guy and not play him a bunch. Or it's Jackson and at that point you're hurting the value and development of a guy you took 4 in a loaded draft. Or it's TJ who if he's not playing 30+ mins a night his numbers won't look great and all of a sudden his contact becomes less appealing in a trade.

And that's just looking at it from a trade value perspective. The other problem is they are setting themselves up to have more unhappy players for like the 5th season in a row. Super


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I fully expect Bridges to get the short end of the stick, both because he's a high-character kid who won't be upset by having to wait his turn and because we have such a long period of contractual control. I don't think JJ would respond nearly as well to not playing.

I actually thought acquiring Ryan was in part a vote of confidence in Bender. Like, see what this guy does on offense? Do that, and you'll play all the time, because you're miles ahead defensively.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I thought they went after Bridges because in many drafts, that's a top 5 draft pick. Ryan has always been about adding value first and foremost.

I did not think Ariza was a vote of no confidence in anyone. It was a one year deal.

I thought the Anderson acquisition was primarily to move on from Chriss and Knight and secondarily to maximize our chances to win this season.

As for the glut of SFs, I do think the FO is open to dealing one of them, but I don't think it's because they don't like them and I don't think they'll sell low. The names we've heard - Kemba, Lillard, Rozier - are valuable players for whom value would have to be tendered in return. Trading TJ or JJ as part of a Lillard deal would not be a dump, obviously.

I don't pretend to know what we will do with the wing glut - aside from playing TJ at the 4 quite a bit and JJ at the guard spots. But I sincerely hope that if we can't find a *fair* deal for a quality vet PG who is a *significant* upgrade over Harrison/Okobo/Melton, that we just run with that crew. I think Melton is probably ahead of Okobo right now just based on where they are physically, and when I was reviewing teams' rosters prior to this trade, I expected Melton to be a contributor for the Rockets this season. Then again, Okobo might take the floor ahead of Melton because unlike Harrison and Melton, Okobo can shoot.

I'm also not eager to give up a long-term piece like TJ/JJ for a PG who won't be here long-term. And if we believe in the potential of Shaq/Okobo/Melton, should we really be looking for a long-term solution? Shouldn't we prefer to grab a stop gap like Dragic for expirings and the MIL pick? Perhaps we've been looking to reacquire Dragic and that's why we sent the MIA pick out, knowing that as long as we had that pick, MIA would take nothing less.

Eager to see where we go from here. Terribly eager to watch this team play under Koko. I am certain we will be much improved.

Sure they can try to sell high all they want but if nothing materializes over the next month then one or two of those wings gets the short end of the minutes stick. Could be Bridges but that seems incredibly dumb to trade a future first for a 22 year old ready to play guy and not play him a bunch. Or it's Jackson and at that point you're hurting the value and development of a guy you took 4 in a loaded draft. Or it's TJ who if he's not playing 30+ mins a night his numbers won't look great and all of a sudden his contact becomes less appealing in a trade.

And that's just looking at it from a trade value perspective. The other problem is they are setting themselves up to have more unhappy players for like the 5th season in a row. Super


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I fully expect Bridges to get the short end of the stick, both because he's a high-character kid who won't be upset by having to wait his turn and because we have such a long period of contractual control. I don't think JJ would respond nearly as well to not playing.

I actually thought acquiring Ryan was in part a vote of confidence in Bender. Like, see what this guy does on offense? Do that, and you'll play all the time, because you're miles ahead defensively.

Burying Bridges is definitively in play... and would be incredibly stupid.

[bwgood77]

We can argue the pluses and minuses of TJ all day long but the suns actions this summer are a pretty clear sign they aren't 100% sold on him. You don't bring in ariza and Bridges if you are.

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One could surmise the same about JJ when wondering why they brought in both, but truth be told, I don't think McD's roster moves in the past have always had much to do about who was already on the roster. It seems like he just brings in who he thinks has the most value as a ball player in free agency and in the draft (most of the time in the draft at least). Unless it's for another reason like bringing in Tyson for 4/52 to see if that helps nab Aldridge.

[WeekapaugGroove]

We can argue the pluses and minuses of TJ all day long but the suns actions this summer are a pretty clear sign they aren't 100% sold on him. You don't bring in ariza and Bridges if you are.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

One could surmise the same about JJ when wondering why they brought in both, but truth be told, I don't think McD's roster moves in the past have always had much to do about who was already on the roster. It seems like he just brings in who he thinks has the most value as a ball player in free agency and in the draft (most of the time in the draft at least). Unless it's for another reason like bringing in Tyson for 4/52 to see if that helps nab Aldridge.

Maybe he should stop doing that and actually build a **** coherent team for once. Novel concept but worth a shot.

[stoo]

i don't think Mikal is going to be sitting on the bench too much.... after all he is traded for pick added... and has few years of experience from college.... that and the fact that Jackson was playing Sl (to show, as everybody), makes me believe he is susceptible to trade....

i would trade him for a short-term PG 1-2 years, because i believe in younf PGs we have, and believe Igor believes too... and he is a great PG development coach

[rcc8884]

Really this is the argument of TJ versus JJ.

The question is are we willing to ship TJ out for a PG knowing full well that Ariza is not a long term option. Knowing we are left with two unproven players in Jackson and Bridges at the future of the SF position. Knowing that neither is really starter material for this season and possibly next or maybe never. It's maddening to minimize TJ's shooting efficiency and then turn around and say Booker and JJ are going to be so much more efficient surrounded by a legitimate big man and shooters. Can't the same thing be said for Warren?

There are a lot of negatives to JJs game that are being conveniently overlooked. There are a lot of assumptions that JJ is going to miraculously improve. The point is if we need point guard we better ship out the right player because I'm tired of seeing all these ex-Suns players make the playoffs in starting and/or bench roles for other teams.

In fact, it is.
This is may be a moment to decide.

Firstly I would decide whether we need to DECIDE NOW.
Do we really need to decide now whether to trade for a good PG?
I mean, is it worth it to trade for a high quality PG, as he will be too old to bring us to a tittle when the rest of the youngsters are really ready to compete. Booker is 20. Ayton is 19 and bigs take time to develope. JJ is 20. And so on. Do we have to bring Lillard or Kemba and give picks, JJ or Warren?

Then, if so decided, we really need to decide whether we can trade JJ or Warren.
Would not be nice to play Ayton with to interchangeable forwards? Could Warren not be the ideal forward to play alongside Ayton?

I believe we could wait a little bit and see how Harrison develops here. Then next summer we could see how to adress the situation.

Exactly, the core is around 20, unless we find a young PG then no need to waste assets on a trade.

[WeekapaugGroove]

i don't think Mikal is going to be sitting on the bench too much.... after all he is traded for pick added... and has few years of experience from college.... that and the fact that Jackson was playing Sl (to show, as everybody), makes me believe he is susceptible to trade....

i would trade him for a short-term PG 1-2 years, because i believe in younf PGs we have, and believe Igor believes too... and he is a great PG development coach

I'm not the biggest Jackson believer but trading him for a stop gap pg would be a hell of a way to light that asset on fire.

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[bwgood77]

We can argue the pluses and minuses of TJ all day long but the suns actions this summer are a pretty clear sign they aren't 100% sold on him. You don't bring in ariza and Bridges if you are.

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One could surmise the same about JJ when wondering why they brought in both, but truth be told, I don't think McD's roster moves in the past have always had much to do about who was already on the roster. It seems like he just brings in who he thinks has the most value as a ball player in free agency and in the draft (most of the time in the draft at least). Unless it's for another reason like bringing in Tyson for 4/52 to see if that helps nab Aldridge.

Maybe he should stop doing that and actually build a **** coherent team for once. Novel concept but worth a shot.

I have no argument there, but at least I like all the players brought in and I always like to get guys who can shoot. I think it's a little less of a problem with guy who don't demand the ball (PGs) and can play off the ball like Bridges and Ariza.

[jcsunsfan]

It’s amazing how 2.5 bad games at Summer Leagues has turned JJ’s rookie season from very promising to “needs to allow the real professionals play”, “was a horrible pick at #4”, and “looks like he’ll never improve like Archie Goodwin” lmao. Suns fans have to be the quickest to give up on young players out of any fan base, pretty embarrassing stuff.

I agree. Now, does that mean I am opposed to trading Jackson. For the right player, sure. But not for even Goran Dragic would I trade Josh Jackson. Jackson had a couple bad summer gam league games - big deal. Its summer league basketball

well it's not about whether he was getting buckets in SL, but the way he played... I confess i haven't watched him extensively, but he doesn't seem like team first player, nor one with particularly high BBIQ... and it seems to me the suns are rebuilding around those qualities

Haven’t watched him extensively? There is the error in your evaluation. JJ is actually a very smart b-ball player. He just has great physical skills and tends to try to play too fast. When he settles, he plays great.



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