Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[NatP4]

I’m planning on re signing Oubre if I’m the GM, so I’m not doing that.

[queridiculo]

One more of the grand old veteran trade ideas here - a mid-season idea:

Oubre to Dallas for Dirk and a future 2nd rounder. Give Dirk one last chance at making a playoffs run. Is there really any reason for him to play out another season in Dallas? And figure Oubre's leaving anyway. Who would you rather have in the playoffs - Oubre or Dirk?

I'd prefer to deal Oubre as part of a mid-season hail marry to get under the luxury tax. If the Kings don't make any moves that reduce their cap space by the deadline they would seem like a good candidate to absorb a some of our payroll in exchange for Oubre's bird rights.

[payitforward]

I'm looking at Phoenix as a team to trade for after they made a bizarre trade for Ryan Anderson. They're not going anywhere this season, so I thought it made no sense to trade Criss for Anderson. But really, the player I'd target from them would be Mikal Bridges. They don't need him, because they feature Booker at the 2 and Warren at the 3 and have Ariza. I'd have to get a 3rd team to make this trade work, because Beal wouldn't be a fit in Phoenix, but basically trade Beal for Anderson and Bridges, and find another team to take Beal and give Phoenix a PF to go with Ayton. I'd be happy to include one of our PF's in the trade.

Mikal Bridges went #10 just over 2 months ago. Whereupon Phoenix traded their #16 pick & an unprotected R1 pick in 2021 to acquire him.

I am guessing they like him a lot.

[Ruzious]

I'm looking at Phoenix as a team to trade for after they made a bizarre trade for Ryan Anderson. They're not going anywhere this season, so I thought it made no sense to trade Criss for Anderson. But really, the player I'd target from them would be Mikal Bridges. They don't need him, because they feature Booker at the 2 and Warren at the 3 and have Ariza. I'd have to get a 3rd team to make this trade work, because Beal wouldn't be a fit in Phoenix, but basically trade Beal for Anderson and Bridges, and find another team to take Beal and give Phoenix a PF to go with Ayton. I'd be happy to include one of our PF's in the trade.

Mikal Bridges went #10 just over 2 months ago. Whereupon Phoenix traded their #16 pick & an unprotected R1 pick in 2021 to acquire him.

I am guessing they like him a lot.

It was a good trade - as opposed to their trade for Anderson. If I'm then, I do it just for the value - which might indeed have been their primary reason. But at this point, he's probably... not untouchable. He or his rights have already been traded a couple of times. Maybe he can set a record for being traded the most times before ever playing.

[Ruzious]

One more of the grand old veteran trade ideas here - a mid-season idea:

Oubre to Dallas for Dirk and a future 2nd rounder. Give Dirk one last chance at making a playoffs run. Is there really any reason for him to play out another season in Dallas? And figure Oubre's leaving anyway. Who would you rather have in the playoffs - Oubre or Dirk?

I'd prefer to deal Oubre as part of a mid-season hail marry to get under the luxury tax. If the Kings don't make any moves that reduce their cap space by the deadline they would seem like a good candidate to absorb a some of our payroll in exchange for Oubre's bird rights.

I would too, except I don't think there'll be more than 1 team with the cap space to take on a lot of salary. I think after this season is when there'll be several teams that could, but by then - Oubre becomes a free agent.

[pcbothwel]

One more of the grand old veteran trade ideas here - a mid-season idea:

Oubre to Dallas for Dirk and a future 2nd rounder. Give Dirk one last chance at making a playoffs run. Is there really any reason for him to play out another season in Dallas? And figure Oubre's leaving anyway. Who would you rather have in the playoffs - Oubre or Dirk?

I'd prefer to deal Oubre as part of a mid-season hail marry to get under the luxury tax. If the Kings don't make any moves that reduce their cap space by the deadline they would seem like a good candidate to absorb a some of our payroll in exchange for Oubre's bird rights.

It just doesnt seem to make sense. Either Oubre looks improved and we are contending... no way we deal him then.
Or he has regressed/stagnated, in which case I dont see a team making that trade.

I think we probably have a deal in place with Sacramento, but need to wait until the deadline for multiple reasons.
1) They want to see if a better offer comes up
2) They want to hold off so we pay the salaries for the first half of the season.

It is probably something around Mahinmi + Smith + 2019 1st + Cash for Koufos + Filler (Skal/Davis).
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yclwhpgg

An interesting trade could be to include the Bulls. They can take on salary and want to get rid of Felicio.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycvbb87r

[doclinkin]

Agree with some, disagree with some.

Agree that the team isn’t trading Brad (though they should). Agree that MIllsap isn’t the perfect fit, though no perfect fit seems likely to be traded. Agree that I’d rather trade lesser players for Ariza or Gasol than trade Beal.

Disagree about clogging the lane. In the regular season, we need to quicken the pace. Less iso Wall, more defense leading to offense. Please remember the MIllsap that this was written about two years ago (in an article listing him as the second best defensive player in the league):

DRtg: 96

Yet another Atlanta Hawks player makes this list, which tells you why they’re one of the best defensive teams in the NBA and rated No. 1 as a team in DRtg this year. Power forward Paul Millsap has become a good defender the last few years, with his best season coming last year when he lowered his DRtg to 96. With Dwight Howard on the team with him this year, he’s having yet another solid season with a DRtg of 98, averaging 8.1 rebounds and 1.6 steals per game.

Defensively, we’d have Oubre, Porter and Wall (who when called upon, can cover three positions), and the rebounding drives the offense (and creates the spacing you want on the other end). Oubre wouldn’t become a second option, like Beal. Our main options would be first fast break and Dwight slam; them midrange MIllsap; then Wall iso and kick to the shooters. I believe Oubre will develop faster when given the opportunity and responsibility, and the loyalty of making him a core piece. Plus MIllsap can play small center, upgrading from Mahimni (both offensively and defensively), and allowing the others to play more natural positions.

Yes, there are several players I’d like more, but they don’t seem to be available. I understand it won’t happen, because we are marketing Wall/Beal together. I think that’s a mistake. I think the leadership responsibility should be spread to a big. Someone who can create their own shot. Would say more but working selling art at Graceland today. Hope all is well.

I do see where you are coming from, you want to maximize the best asset of our best player. Wallstar is faster than everyone, if you give him the ball and get out of the way you will see more easy points on the break. Defense plus rebounding equals quick points on the opposite end. I don't disagree. I guess I'm also trying to balance that in the half court and in the post season when things clog up and things slow down. John is going to be fast. I'm saying: lets give him room to be fast in half court as well as transition.

Also where we have fallen short in years past is not really when John is on the court, but when we go to the bench. Our starters, with Oubre not Keef, were dominant. Length, defense, range, and switchability. We guarded the three okay and rebounded the long bounce from opponent misses. Putting Howard in the middle in that mix seems to be an upgrade from Gortat. Switch everything on the exterior. Let Howard stick near the bucket. Seems to be a recipe for success except against the most efficient small ball teams. I think it will be alright even with Keef not Kelly. Though it will be trickier to make space for the Wall to Howard pick and roll which I feel will be a dominant weapon in our arsenal, if given room to work. Really more than anything I want a long rangy PF who can hit from outside and defend. That's one reason why I daydream about medical science rescuing and reclaiming Chris Bosh to land him on our team:

Wallstar -- adrenaline point, drive and kick, P&R alley oop with Howard
Brad -- running through staggered screens, decoy and catch and shoot
Otto -- corner three and backdoor off the Bosh pass from the top of the key
Bosh -- Wall pick and pop
Howard -- roll all day. Just please please please stick the pick first before you roll. The all you have to do is catch and finish.

Still, I expect we do alright with our starters as is. In transition, and when we get a couple perimeter shooters going.

HOWEVER, you can't play transition all day, all game. Even with good defense and solid rebounders. Howard will help there, and yeah and upgrade in rebounding at 4 would be nice, but still even the best transition teams only get ~15-18 transition attempts a game. The rest is half court. And thats our biggest weakness right now. And our biggest star is the cause of it.

As of right now teams have figured out if you clog the middle then in the halfcourt John doesn't have a move. He stands around waiting for Brad to do something. He does not run patterns to get open. He tries his weak jumper from the right of the key. The offense bogs down because he does not have a place to go.

So. To my read what we need most is something that improves spacing for John to do what he does. Punish teams for clogging the middle. Ditto Howard. He is still one of the biggest and most athletic Bigs in the game. He should be punishing players for trying to match him. His problem is the same as John's though. Howard's biggest offensive problem is that he is kinda slllllowww to react when he is underneath, he tries to do too much and gets confused, and loses the ball or tries a weak jumper. He's vulnearble to the double and simply can't pass when crowded.

Then too, for all that these two players are dominant, and that Brad is a nice player, and Otto is a junkball high IQ glue guy who will bail you out with a smart play when he's forgotten about and left alone, and we end up with a pretty decent starting crew. Still. When we go to the bench it all falls apart. Without John in the game we founder. Brad tries to do too much, and there's no balance on the court. And then too it means one of either Brad or John has to be on the court all game. They wear down. And uptempo John tires out and stops trying on both defense and stands still on offense like we said.

So: whats the fix? Make it easier even in the half court.

I liked the ball movement in the "Everybody Eats" run, until scouting caught up to the fact that Brad can't carry the team. Doube him and we got nothin. But yeah, I liked Otto starting to assert himself when forced into an alpha role. I want to add more offensive options and more room for the team to operate even without John. Better space. More options, make the oppoent chase all over trying to cut off all the options so they are too tired to do the same when John is back in the game running until their tongues hang out.

If things develop as I daydream then:

Saty
Oubre with an improving 3FG%
Troy Brown playing point forward and using his savvy
Otto --or-- the Devin Robinson of summer league
Rebounding big who passes --or-- Bryant as a long range Big

and it feels like we are a solid squad who can BBIQ'em to death. Outthink outpass and outexecute them.

But until then we need a back up 2G who can defend.
We need a ranged PF with a decent jumper.
We need space for John and Howard to get loose in the half court. And figure the transition opportunities will come if the offense is easier and players have more energy for defense.

I dunno. Just a thought from where I'm looking.

[Sactowndog]

One more of the grand old veteran trade ideas here - a mid-season idea:

Oubre to Dallas for Dirk and a future 2nd rounder. Give Dirk one last chance at making a playoffs run. Is there really any reason for him to play out another season in Dallas? And figure Oubre's leaving anyway. Who would you rather have in the playoffs - Oubre or Dirk?

I'd prefer to deal Oubre as part of a mid-season hail marry to get under the luxury tax. If the Kings don't make any moves that reduce their cap space by the deadline they would seem like a good candidate to absorb a some of our payroll in exchange for Oubre's bird rights.

It just doesnt seem to make sense. Either Oubre looks improved and we are contending... no way we deal him then.
Or he has regressed/stagnated, in which case I dont see a team making that trade.

I think we probably have a deal in place with Sacramento, but need to wait until the deadline for multiple reasons.
1) They want to see if a better offer comes up
2) They want to hold off so we pay the salaries for the first half of the season.

It is probably something around Mahinmi + Smith + 2019 1st + Cash for Koufos + Filler (Skal/Davis).
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yclwhpgg

An interesting trade could be to include the Bulls. They can take on salary and want to get rid of Felicio.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycvbb87r

I’m curious. Knowing the Kings need a small forward badly, why would they make a deal that would allow you to more easily retain Oubre?

Wouldn’t it be in their interest to force you into the repeater tax so that either the Kings can sign Oubre or another team does taking out a spot in the free agent market?

[pcbothwel]

Ehhh... Maybe. But that is really counting on too many variables. Do you really think giving Kelly Oubre 3/60M is going to make your team that much better? Again, he's an RFA so you'll have to overpay slightly to get him.

You also run the risk of of us simply waiting until the summer to dump Mahinmi and our 1st then. Yes, we would need to stay out of the tax, but if we dump our 1st and Mahinmi then we would have about 20M to sign Sato & Oubre and stay under the tax

[payitforward]

I'm looking at Phoenix as a team to trade for after they made a bizarre trade for Ryan Anderson. They're not going anywhere this season, so I thought it made no sense to trade Criss for Anderson. But really, the player I'd target from them would be Mikal Bridges. They don't need him, because they feature Booker at the 2 and Warren at the 3 and have Ariza. I'd have to get a 3rd team to make this trade work, because Beal wouldn't be a fit in Phoenix, but basically trade Beal for Anderson and Bridges, and find another team to take Beal and give Phoenix a PF to go with Ayton. I'd be happy to include one of our PF's in the trade.

Mikal Bridges went #10 just over 2 months ago. Whereupon Phoenix traded their #16 pick & an unprotected R1 pick in 2021 to acquire him.

I am guessing they like him a lot.

It was a good trade - as opposed to their trade for Anderson. If I'm then, I do it just for the value - which might indeed have been their primary reason. But at this point, he's probably... not untouchable. He or his rights have already been traded a couple of times. Maybe he can set a record for being traded the most times before ever playing.

The 2021 unprotected R1 pick they gave is Miami's. It has a strong likelihood of being a lottery pick. They gave that & the #16 pick in a seemingly very strong draft to acquire a guy picked 6 picks earlier. I'd say that was a lot to give -- a huge lot to give.

It's no surprise that Philly couldn't turn it down. Of course, the trade may turn out well -- for either team. But more likely by far for the Sixers than Phoenix.

Bridges is a 22 year old rookie; I expect him to be pretty good -- faster than some of the 1/done rookies. But, obviously, that won't tell the story.

[payitforward]

Ehhh... Maybe. But that is really counting on too many variables. Do you really think giving Kelly Oubre 3/60M is going to make your team that much better? Again, he's an RFA so you'll have to overpay slightly to get him.

You also run the risk of of us simply waiting until the summer to dump Mahinmi and our 1st then. Yes, we would need to stay out of the tax, but if we dump our 1st and Mahinmi then we would have about 20M to sign Sato & Oubre and stay under the tax

?? I must be missing something.

If we "dump Mahinmi and our 1st" in the Summer, we'll have $95.7m invested in 4 players. Lets assume we pick up Bryant's option. That's $97.6m for 5 players.

Using your @$20m/year figure for Oubre, we are up to call it $117m for 6 players. This year the lux tax border is just under $124m. Lets be optimistic & say it goes up $5m.

That would leave us $12m to re-sign Sato & add 7 other players. You know that we can't do that, right? We wouldn't be able to get within $10m of doing that.

Edit: Lets be really optimistic about Oubre/Sato as well & assume we can get them both for that $20m/year. In that case, we would have $12m to add 7 players.

Including a starting Center, btw. Oh, and including a starting Power Forward as well.

Of course, Howard might pick up his option. Now we have just over $6m to add six players. Including a starting PF.

Cheap players are either veteran minimum guys or guys on rookie contracts. But, we'd have lost our R1 pick. We'd have 2 guys on rookie contracts: Brown & Bryant.

So... who are your 6 favorite veteran minimum players? 43% of the Washington Wizards roster next year.

[pcbothwel]

Ehhh... Maybe. But that is really counting on too many variables. Do you really think giving Kelly Oubre 3/60M is going to make your team that much better? Again, he's an RFA so you'll have to overpay slightly to get him.

You also run the risk of of us simply waiting until the summer to dump Mahinmi and our 1st then. Yes, we would need to stay out of the tax, but if we dump our 1st and Mahinmi then we would have about 20M to sign Sato & Oubre and stay under the tax

?? I must be missing something.

If we "dump Mahinmi and our 1st" in the Summer, we'll have $95.7m invested in 4 players. Lets assume we pick up Bryant's option. That's $97.6m for 5 players.

Using your @$20m/year figure for Oubre, we are up to call it $117m for 6 players. This year the lux tax border is just under $124m. Lets be optimistic & say it goes up $5m.

That would leave us $12m to re-sign Sato & add 7 other players. You know that we can't do that, right? We wouldn't be able to get within $10m of doing that.

Edit: Lets be really optimistic about Oubre/Sato as well & assume we can get them both for that $20m/year. In that case, we would have $12m to add 7 players.

Including a starting Center, btw. Oh, and including a starting Power Forward as well.

Of course, Howard might pick up his option. Now we have just over $6m to add six players. Including a starting PF.

Cheap players are either veteran minimum guys or guys on rookie contracts. But, we'd have lost our R1 pick. We'd have 2 guys on rookie contracts: Brown & Bryant.

So... who are your 6 favorite veteran minimum players? 43% of the Washington Wizards roster next year.

I may need to redo the math. But lets also start with the same parameters. I have the Cap at 109M and the Lux tax at 132M.
I have Wall, Beal, Porter, and Troy at 95.37M
Add Dwight option and you're at 101M
Add Oubre and Sato for 20M and you're at 121M
So that leaves us with about 10M to add 7 guys.

That is our entire starting lineup and our two primary backups in Sato and Brown. Include Bryant too and that is a solid 8 man rotation.

Again, look at teams like GS, Houston, etc. You pay 7 guys and then Vet Min/Cheap rookies with the rest.
You give me those 8 players (plus Devin Robinson at 1.6M) and ill gladly take 5-6 guys out of:
Treveon Graham, Devin Harris, Channing Frye, Amir Johnson, Jeff Green, Jerebko, Casspi, Vonleh, Lawson, Looney, etc.

Not an ideal situation, but doable.

[payitforward]

... have the Cap at 109M and the Lux tax at 132M.
I have Wall, Beal, Porter, and Troy at 95.37M
Add Dwight option and you're at 101M
Add Oubre and Sato for 20M and you're at 121M
So that leaves us with about 10M to add 7 guys.

That is our entire starting lineup and our two primary backups in Sato and Brown. Include Bryant too and that is a solid 8 man rotation....

Lets start with this:
"Wall, Beal, Porter, and Troy.... Add Dwight.... Add Oubre and Sato and you're at 121M... (for) ...our entire starting lineup and our two primary backups in Sato and Brown."

A lot of assumptions:

1. Porter our starting 4 -- that hasn't happened in the past. Best use of Otto Porter? I doubt it.vHe's an awfully good 3. Is he really a good enough rebounder to handle the 4 for starter minutes?
2. Oubre our starting 3 -- so far he hasn't even developed into a really good backup 3, but you've got him starting.
3. Dwight -- what if he doesn't want to play for $5.6m, b/c he had a good season with us & can earn a lot more (which we can't give him). Now we have $5.6m more to work with -- & no starting Center.
4. Brown as one of "our two primary backups." Really? A just-turned-20, 2d year player, & he is one of the two primary backups on a team that is thinking of itself as a good team? You're sure this is something more than a complete fantasy scenario you're projecting?

One of the ways to test the solidity of any such scenario is to see how sensitive it is to small changes in its assumptions. This one is blown out of the water by some very likely changes to your assumptions. Viz.

1. Howard is a problem this year rather than a solution to anything. Or,
2. Howard is terrific this year & puts himself back on the FA market, where we are not a competitor for his services. Or,
3. Oubre & Sato cost a combined #24m rather than $20m. Or,
4. We re-sign Oubre & Sato takes an offer from another team that we aren't comfortable matching. Or,
5. We re-sign Sato at closer to his real value in the league w/ its current pay levels -- say $9-10m -- & can't afford to re-sign Oubre. Or,
6. Brown plays at a far more likely level -- like a promising 20-year old 2d year player. Say the way Oubre played his 2d year.

Any of those is enough to explode your fantasy scenario. Even more likely is to replace some of those "Or" transitions with "And" transitions. Here's a quite likely combo, for example:

Howard doesn't pick up his option, and Oubre signs elsewhere, and we re-sign Sato for $9m, and Brown plays like the promising 20 year old year 2 guy.

Now we have 3 of 5 starters, and we have one very good backup player, and a promising 20 year old. That's five players in total for just under $105m. All we need now is a really good starting Center & a really good starting Power Forward, & a bench.

Of course all of this hangs on one other assumption which got it going -- that we are able to trade Mahinmi & take nothing back in salary. Absorb no bad contract whatever.

What would you say the odds are of getting to your dream scenario -- in which, btw, all we have to do is add 6 players for $7m -- without any draft picks (our R2 pick is gone)? Maybe 1 in a 100?

[payitforward]

As to this:

...look at teams like GS, Houston, etc. You pay 7 guys and then Vet Min/Cheap rookies with the rest.
You give me those 8 players (plus Devin Robinson at 1.6M) and ill gladly take 5-6 guys out of:
Treveon Graham, Devin Harris, Channing Frye, Amir Johnson, Jeff Green, Jerebko, Casspi, Vonleh, Lawson, Looney, etc....

Look again....

GS got over 4000 minutes of extremely high level production out of Jordan Bell, Patrick McCaw, JaVale McGee, Omri Casspi & Kevon Looney.

Oh, & then they got another 3600 minutes of extremely high level production from Zaza Pachulia, David West & Andre Iguodala.

That's almost 40% of all their players' minutes on the floor.

We aren't getting those guys. We're getting Mike Scott & Jeff Green & Ramon Sessions & Jodie Meeks & Jason Smith &....

Golden State isn't supplying any supporting evidence for anything we do.

[pcbothwel]

As to this:

...look at teams like GS, Houston, etc. You pay 7 guys and then Vet Min/Cheap rookies with the rest.
You give me those 8 players (plus Devin Robinson at 1.6M) and ill gladly take 5-6 guys out of:
Treveon Graham, Devin Harris, Channing Frye, Amir Johnson, Jeff Green, Jerebko, Casspi, Vonleh, Lawson, Looney, etc....

Look again....

GS got over 4000 minutes of extremely high level production out of Jordan Bell, Patrick McCaw, JaVale McGee, Omri Casspi & Kevon Looney.

Oh, & then they got another 3600 minutes of extremely high level production from Zaza Pachulia, David West & Andre Iguodala.

That's almost 40% of all their players' minutes on the floor.

We aren't getting those guys. We're getting Mike Scott & Jeff Green & Ramon Sessions & Jodie Meeks & Jason Smith &....

Golden State isn't supplying any supporting evidence for anything we do.

Ummm. What?
You argue the difficulty/impossibility of filling out a roster with 6-7 Vet min/2nd round picks... But then point to how GSW did just that...lol
So the argument is:
Me: You can fill out the back end of roster with 5-6 Vet min players if your are a top 4 seed.
You: No you cant
Me: Yes, look at all the players around the league making the Vet Min that are rotation worthy players
You: Yeah, GSW does it VERY well.... But we have EG and he's an idiot

That basically sums it up, but that's a catch all for any discussion here.
"If we do XYZ then we'll have cap space"
"Bad idea, EG will sign Mahinmi and Jason Smith"

"If we do XYZ then we'll have draft picks"
"Bad idea, EG will draft bad players"

Do you see how that catch all could be used with anything?

[Sactowndog]

Ehhh... Maybe. But that is really counting on too many variables. Do you really think giving Kelly Oubre 3/60M is going to make your team that much better? Again, he's an RFA so you'll have to overpay slightly to get him.

You also run the risk of of us simply waiting until the summer to dump Mahinmi and our 1st then. Yes, we would need to stay out of the tax, but if we dump our 1st and Mahinmi then we would have about 20M to sign Sato & Oubre and stay under the tax

?? I must be missing something.

If we "dump Mahinmi and our 1st" in the Summer, we'll have $95.7m invested in 4 players. Lets assume we pick up Bryant's option. That's $97.6m for 5 players.

Using your @$20m/year figure for Oubre, we are up to call it $117m for 6 players. This year the lux tax border is just under $124m. Lets be optimistic & say it goes up $5m.

That would leave us $12m to re-sign Sato & add 7 other players. You know that we can't do that, right? We wouldn't be able to get within $10m of doing that.

Edit: Lets be really optimistic about Oubre/Sato as well & assume we can get them both for that $20m/year. In that case, we would have $12m to add 7 players.

Including a starting Center, btw. Oh, and including a starting Power Forward as well.

Of course, Howard might pick up his option. Now we have just over $6m to add six players. Including a starting PF.

Cheap players are either veteran minimum guys or guys on rookie contracts. But, we'd have lost our R1 pick. We'd have 2 guys on rookie contracts: Brown & Bryant.

So... who are your 6 favorite veteran minimum players? 43% of the Washington Wizards roster next year.

I may need to redo the math. But lets also start with the same parameters. I have the Cap at 109M and the Lux tax at 132M.
I have Wall, Beal, Porter, and Troy at 95.37M
Add Dwight option and you're at 101M
Add Oubre and Sato for 20M and you're at 121M
So that leaves us with about 10M to add 7 guys.

That is our entire starting lineup and our two primary backups in Sato and Brown. Include Bryant too and that is a solid 8 man rotation.

Again, look at teams like GS, Houston, etc. You pay 7 guys and then Vet Min/Cheap rookies with the rest.
You give me those 8 players (plus Devin Robinson at 1.6M) and ill gladly take 5-6 guys out of:
Treveon Graham, Devin Harris, Channing Frye, Amir Johnson, Jeff Green, Jerebko, Casspi, Vonleh, Lawson, Looney, etc.

Not an ideal situation, but doable.

Except the Kings will pay Oubre more than 10. The could easily offer 60M over 3 years and not hurt their cap structure in the least.

[pcbothwel]

?? I must be missing something.

If we "dump Mahinmi and our 1st" in the Summer, we'll have $95.7m invested in 4 players. Lets assume we pick up Bryant's option. That's $97.6m for 5 players.

Using your @$20m/year figure for Oubre, we are up to call it $117m for 6 players. This year the lux tax border is just under $124m. Lets be optimistic & say it goes up $5m.

That would leave us $12m to re-sign Sato & add 7 other players. You know that we can't do that, right? We wouldn't be able to get within $10m of doing that.

Edit: Lets be really optimistic about Oubre/Sato as well & assume we can get them both for that $20m/year. In that case, we would have $12m to add 7 players.

Including a starting Center, btw. Oh, and including a starting Power Forward as well.

Of course, Howard might pick up his option. Now we have just over $6m to add six players. Including a starting PF.

Cheap players are either veteran minimum guys or guys on rookie contracts. But, we'd have lost our R1 pick. We'd have 2 guys on rookie contracts: Brown & Bryant.

So... who are your 6 favorite veteran minimum players? 43% of the Washington Wizards roster next year.

I may need to redo the math. But lets also start with the same parameters. I have the Cap at 109M and the Lux tax at 132M.
I have Wall, Beal, Porter, and Troy at 95.37M
Add Dwight option and you're at 101M
Add Oubre and Sato for 20M and you're at 121M
So that leaves us with about 10M to add 7 guys.

That is our entire starting lineup and our two primary backups in Sato and Brown. Include Bryant too and that is a solid 8 man rotation.

Again, look at teams like GS, Houston, etc. You pay 7 guys and then Vet Min/Cheap rookies with the rest.
You give me those 8 players (plus Devin Robinson at 1.6M) and ill gladly take 5-6 guys out of:
Treveon Graham, Devin Harris, Channing Frye, Amir Johnson, Jeff Green, Jerebko, Casspi, Vonleh, Lawson, Looney, etc.

Not an ideal situation, but doable.

Except the Kings will pay Oubre more than 10. The could easily offer 60M over 3 years and not hurt their cap structure in the least.

We are not assuming 10M, but simply 20M total for him and Sato.
I am assuming a 4/60M deal, which would have a starting salary of about 13.5M.

[barelyawake]

Doc, pretty spent from work/Beale street. Not enough spare brain power to craft a response. I shall at some point.

But, I’d like to address this concept of “done,” There are many levels of “done.” I have heard Chandler was “done” about ten times in a decade. I heard Livingston was done a good handful of times. Ditto Iggy. Ditto Diaw. West was done. Marion was done. Barbosa was done. Nene was done about five times. The list goes on.

There are many levels of done - from done as an Allstar starting caliber player to complete waste of space on the bench (even as a mentor). And by most measures MIllsap is certainly not done.

I could give a damn what regular season stats say about a player, if their purpose is to show-up and contribute 10 minutes of their former selves for maybe 10 playoff games (especially if that person helps the collective with his presence and advice in the locker room). Not saying this is the case with MIllsap, I'm giving an example of where “done” isn’t “done.” I’m certain this topic will come up again. Hopefully I’ll have more energy to expound further at that time.

[pcbothwel]

FYI, I posted a 3-way with the Kings and Bulls that gets us under the tax and seems to be getting good feedback.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1745477

[payitforward]

As to this:

...look at teams like GS, Houston, etc. You pay 7 guys and then Vet Min/Cheap rookies with the rest.
You give me those 8 players (plus Devin Robinson at 1.6M) and ill gladly take 5-6 guys out of:
Treveon Graham, Devin Harris, Channing Frye, Amir Johnson, Jeff Green, Jerebko, Casspi, Vonleh, Lawson, Looney, etc....

Look again....

GS got over 4000 minutes of extremely high level production out of Jordan Bell, Patrick McCaw, JaVale McGee, Omri Casspi & Kevon Looney.

Oh, & then they got another 3600 minutes of extremely high level production from Zaza Pachulia, David West & Andre Iguodala.

That's almost 40% of all their players' minutes on the floor.

We aren't getting those guys. We're getting Mike Scott & Jeff Green & Ramon Sessions & Jodie Meeks & Jason Smith &....

Golden State isn't supplying any supporting evidence for anything we do.

...So the argument is:
Me: You can fill out the back end of a roster with 5-6 Vet min players if your are a top 4 seed.
You: No you cant
Me: Yes, look at all the players around the league making the Vet Min that are rotation worthy players
You: Yeah, GSW does it VERY well.... But we have EG and he's an idiot

That basically sums it up, but that's a catch all for any discussion here.
"If we do XYZ then we'll have cap space"
"Bad idea, EG will sign Mahinmi and Jason Smith"

"If we do XYZ then we'll have draft picks"
"Bad idea, EG will draft bad players"

Do you see how that catch all could be used with anything?

Sure, but that wasn't my argument.

1. GS drafted Jordan Bell, Patrick McCaw & Kevon Looney (Looney in round 1 not 2). They are not "back end of the roster... Vet Min" guys at all. They are part of a continually self-extending way of adding candidates to develop into part of your core team.

2. Andre Iguodala is a successful FA signing at the same financial scale as Mahinmi. We must have had at least one of those in the last dozen years, right? & his name is....?

3. David West did play for GS at a vet min salary -- but he was not a vet min player! He declined a $12.6m player option at Indiana to sign at the vet min with the Spurs, b/c he wanted a title before he retired. When that didn't work out, he chose the Warriors & did the same -- I imagine he could have signed anywhere he wanted at that salary! He got his ring; now he's retired.

4. McGee might be a reasonable example of your point, however, except that in 2 years w/ the Warriors he averaged @20 points per 40 minutes at TS% of about .64, while getting something over 13 boards per 40 minutes as well. & got a ring. Which means that maybe he isn't such a good example of your point, is he? Putting aside his history w/ the Wizards do you think he might have chosen us over them? Do you think David West might have? Naw, you don't.

5. Main point & reason you are wrong: as I explicitly pointed out, those 7 guys played nearly 40% of GS's minutes. At a high level. They weren't there to "fill out the back end of a roster."

This is obvious on the face of it. For both teams, take away the minutes played by the top 9 guys, then -- for simplicity -- take away the total of 100 minutes played by the bottom 2 players on both teams. How many minutes did the rest of the guys play on each team?

On our team that number is 2467 minutes. On GS, that number is 4875 -- almost twice as many. Golden State wasn't "filling out the back end of a roster" with any move they made. That's the basic problem with your scenario, as I pointed out: that just isn't the way you build a good team. Period. "Filling out the back end of a roster" is what teams do that have no real plan & no real future.

As for --

"...I'll gladly 5-6 guys out of: Treveon Graham, Devin Harris, Channing Frye, Amir Johnson, Jeff Green, Jerebko, Casspi, Vonleh, Lawson, Looney, etc...." "...plus Devin Robinson."

-- good Lord, man.... Just for starters, Looney is still with GS. Amir Johnson is still with the Sixers, Casspi is on Memphis, Jerebko is on Golden State, Vonleh is on the Knicks, Harris is still at Dallas, Frye is still a Cav, and Treveon Graham is on the Nets -- so, no, you won't take a single one of them.

Let me see... who does that leave? Oh, there he is -- Jeff Green. You'll take Jeff, or I mean you've already taken him. "Plus Devin Robinson."

Jeff Green is a marginal player, more or less comparable to Mike Scott (you like him too, don't you?). He's never had a single "good" season in his entire career. And at 23.5 years old (his half birthday is tomorrow), Devin Robinson has done nothing to make anyone (but you, I guess?) think he's an NBA player.