Around the NBA: 2017—2018

[Pillendreher]

And it comes full circle.

[ThunderBolt]

this just makes it more dubious, since the benefits from training with westbrook did not become evident until the following season? yawn.

Well the benefits certainly weren’t from spending three years in Orlando because he wasn’t an allstar there. Maybe he should have dropped those 18lbs before he went to Indiana.

[slick_watts]

this just makes it more dubious, since the benefits from training with westbrook did not become evident until the following season? yawn.

Well the benefits certainly weren’t from spending three years in Orlando because he wasn’t an allstar there. Maybe he should have dropped those 18lbs before he went to Indiana.

it was just natural development of a gifted player-- development that was somewhat masked on the thunder by westbrook's 40%+ usage and the necessary pigeon holing of oladipo into a westbrook-friendly role.

[bondom34]

[ThunderBolt]

this just makes it more dubious, since the benefits from training with westbrook did not become evident until the following season? yawn.

Well the benefits certainly weren’t from spending three years in Orlando because he wasn’t an allstar there. Maybe he should have dropped those 18lbs before he went to Indiana.

it was just natural development of a gifted player-- development that was somewhat masked on the thunder by westbrook's 40%+ usage and the necessary pigeon holing of oladipo into a westbrook-friendly role.

It’s always someone else’s fault when it comes to a persons weight problems. Vic was fat. Once he owned it, he got better.

[Pillendreher]

:lol:

I'm too lazy to try if the search is functional again, but if I do remember correctly, slick was on here saying something along the lines of "I do hope those DRAPM numbers are correct" because Oladipo wasn't that consistent with anything else. But I guess now it's a "natural development" even though he was more or less the same player for four straight years without showing any signs of "breaking out".

[slick_watts]

Well the benefits certainly weren’t from spending three years in Orlando because he wasn’t an allstar there. Maybe he should have dropped those 18lbs before he went to Indiana.

it was just natural development of a gifted player-- development that was somewhat masked on the thunder by westbrook's 40%+ usage and the necessary pigeon holing of oladipo into a westbrook-friendly role.

It’s always someone else’s fault when it comes to a persons weight problems. Vic was fat. Once he owned it, he got better.

anyone who knows me will tell you i have zero sympathy for fats.

[slick_watts]

:lol:

I'm too lazy to try if the search is functional again, but if I do remember correctly, slick was on here saying something along the lines of "I do hope those DRAPM numbers are correct" because Oladipo wasn't that consistent with anything else. But I guess now it's a "natural development" even though he was more or less the same player for four straight years without showing any signs of "breaking out".

i was higher on oladipo than most because of his rpm progression and schizo role changes on the magic. i did not expect westbrook to set usage records or for oladipo to play bench minutes with the worst bench in the nba. it turned out i was actually correct about this, and featuring in a role suited for his skillset combined with natural development of those skills has seen him turn into a star.

incidentally, i don't believe wesbtrook actively makes a player like oladipo worse. it's just hard for certain players to co-exist in optimal roles next to him.

[Pillendreher]

:lol:

I'm too lazy to try if the search is functional again, but if I do remember correctly, slick was on here saying something along the lines of "I do hope those DRAPM numbers are correct" because Oladipo wasn't that consistent with anything else. But I guess now it's a "natural development" even though he was more or less the same player for four straight years without showing any signs of "breaking out".

i was higher on oladipo than most because of his rpm progression and schizo role changes on the magic. i did not expect westbrook to set usage records or for oladipo to play bench minutes with the worst bench in the nba. it turned out i was actually correct about this, and featuring in a role suited for his skillset combined with natural development of those skills has seen him turn into a star.

What a bunch of nonsense. There was no indication whatsoever that Oladipo could turn into the player he was for the Pacers last season. His improvement was like when you start your own player on NBA 2K and then finally have enough points to really upgrade your athleticism and speed. He went from being Mr Two Quarters (he played well for one half, but then never managed to play well for the whole game) to a Star player who carried his team. This was neither a "natural development" of said skills nor a "role suited for his skillset". This is just revisionist history trying to pin something nobody saw coming on Westbrook. You don't go from "Man, the Thunder are dumping salary while getting Paul George " to "Oladipo is a star" simply because your role increases and you just get better at what you've already been doing.

[slick_watts]

There was no indication whatsoever that Oladipo could turn into the player he was for the Pacers last season.

and why was that?

This is just revisionist history trying to pin something nobody saw coming on Westbrook.

oh right, it was because he didn't have the opportunity to 'turn into' that player next to westbrook.

You don't go from "Man, the Thunder are dumping salary while getting Paul George " to "Oladipo is a star" simply because your role increases and you just get better at what you've already been doing.

that's exactly how westbrook won mvp. yes, you do get better by doing those things.

[ThunderBolt]

and why was that?

Look for the constant in the preceding years and see what changed in Indiana. Russ wasn’t the constant. His body is what changed. I’m sure there are other factors such as motivation from being traded twice, learning from russ and maybe being a better fit in Indiana.

I’m not even a die hard russ supporter. He’s the most frustrating player I’ve ever supported. I don’t think your off base on some of your assessments. I just don’t think it’s as simple as pinpointing one thing and saying that’s the issue. Vic and George both sucked at leading a bench unit without russ on the floor. Dononvan and by extension, Presti, deserve blame too.

[bondom34]

You all try to be reasonable. That's the first mistake.

[bondom34]

[Pillendreher]

This is just revisionist history trying to pin something nobody saw coming on Westbrook.

oh right, it was because he didn't have the opportunity to 'turn into' that player next to westbrook.

He had plenty of chances to actually play well as a Thunder. It's not like they forced him into the role they gave Patterson last year. Unfortunately, it just never happened.

[Andre Roberstan]

and why was that?

Look for the constant in the preceding years and see what changed in Indiana. Russ wasn’t the constant. His body is what changed. I’m sure there are other factors such as motivation from being traded twice, learning from russ and maybe being a better fit in Indiana.

I’m not even a die hard russ supporter. He’s the most frustrating player I’ve ever supported. I don’t think your off base on some of your assessments. I just don’t think it’s as simple as pinpointing one thing and saying that’s the issue. Vic and George both sucked at leading a bench unit without russ on the floor. Dononvan and by extension, Presti, deserve blame too.

There's a significant fit change—he was shoehorned into a catch-and-shoot role in OKC, more than he is in Indiana. His pull-up improved in Indy (at least over the start of the year...he regressed somewhat later in the season).

I do actually agree with Justin that we might have seen at least SOME of the improvement he showed in Indy had he been in a different environment. Not discounting the effect of changing his body, learning from Russ, etc. But playing in OKC definitely didn't suit him. (That's also BTS stuff, too...he was a good soldier but it wasn't what he expected.)

[slick_watts]

I’m not even a die hard russ supporter. He’s the most frustrating player I’ve ever supported. I don’t think your off base on some of your assessments. I just don’t think it’s as simple as pinpointing one thing and saying that’s the issue. Vic and George both sucked at leading a bench unit without russ on the floor. Dononvan and by extension, Presti, deserve blame too.

wait, what are we even talking about now? donovan and presti deserve blame? for what? i'm talking about victor oladipo and the claim that westbrook was a primary influence for his improvement last year in indiana. i think that claim is mostly b.s. with perhaps a grain of truth that maybe westbrook inspired him to work out harder. this sounds like fairy tale stuff to me. and that grain of truth imo is heavily outweighed by the role that oladipo was necessarily forced into on the thunder his one season here.

what does that have to do with billy donovan or sam presti? or, really, even westbrook himself? it's not a slight on westbrook to suggest he does not have magical powers that manifest themselves randomly on players only after they stop playing with him. because nobody has that ability.

[ThunderBolt]

and why was that?

Look for the constant in the preceding years and see what changed in Indiana. Russ wasn’t the constant. His body is what changed. I’m sure there are other factors such as motivation from being traded twice, learning from russ and maybe being a better fit in Indiana.

I’m not even a die hard russ supporter. He’s the most frustrating player I’ve ever supported. I don’t think your off base on some of your assessments. I just don’t think it’s as simple as pinpointing one thing and saying that’s the issue. Vic and George both sucked at leading a bench unit without russ on the floor. Dononvan and by extension, Presti, deserve blame too.

There's a significant fit change—he was shoehorned into a catch-and-shoot role in OKC, more than he is in Indiana. His pull-up improved in Indy (at least over the start of the year...he regressed somewhat later in the season).

I do actually agree with Justin that we might have seen at least SOME of the improvement he showed in Indy had he been in a different environment. Not discounting the effect of changing his body, learning from Russ, etc. But playing in OKC definitely didn't suit him. (That's also BTS stuff, too...he was a good soldier but it wasn't what he expected.)

I don’t disagree with that but we aren’t acknowledging the player he was in Orlando. I’ll admit that I’ve never watched a lot of magic games but regardless of his role in there, he wasn’t the player for them that he is now.

[ThunderBolt]

I’m not even a die hard russ supporter. He’s the most frustrating player I’ve ever supported. I don’t think your off base on some of your assessments. I just don’t think it’s as simple as pinpointing one thing and saying that’s the issue. Vic and George both sucked at leading a bench unit without russ on the floor. Dononvan and by extension, Presti, deserve blame too.

wait, what are we even talking about now? donovan and presti deserve blame? for what? i'm talking about victor oladipo and the claim that westbrook was a primary influence for his improvement last year in indiana. i think that claim is mostly b.s. with perhaps a grain of truth that maybe westbrook inspired him to work out harder. this sounds like fairy tale stuff to me. and that grain of truth imo is heavily outweighed by the role that oladipo was necessarily forced into on the thunder his one season here.

what does that have to do with billy donovan or sam presti? or, really, even westbrook himself? it's not a slight on westbrook to suggest he does not have magical powers that manifest themselves randomly on players only after they stop playing with him. because nobody has that ability.

I think we are saying two different things. You are saying Russ isn’t solely responsible for his improvement. I’m saying russ isn’t fully to blame for his lack of development.

[slick_watts]

I’m not even a die hard russ supporter. He’s the most frustrating player I’ve ever supported. I don’t think your off base on some of your assessments. I just don’t think it’s as simple as pinpointing one thing and saying that’s the issue. Vic and George both sucked at leading a bench unit without russ on the floor. Dononvan and by extension, Presti, deserve blame too.

wait, what are we even talking about now? donovan and presti deserve blame? for what? i'm talking about victor oladipo and the claim that westbrook was a primary influence for his improvement last year in indiana. i think that claim is mostly b.s. with perhaps a grain of truth that maybe westbrook inspired him to work out harder. this sounds like fairy tale stuff to me. and that grain of truth imo is heavily outweighed by the role that oladipo was necessarily forced into on the thunder his one season here.

what does that have to do with billy donovan or sam presti? or, really, even westbrook himself? it's not a slight on westbrook to suggest he does not have magical powers that manifest themselves randomly on players only after they stop playing with him. because nobody has that ability.

I think we are saying two different things. You are saying Russ isn’t solely responsible for his improvement. I’m saying russ isn’t fully to blame for his lack of development.

fully to blame? no. i wouldn't even really 'blame' westbrook, either. westbrook is what he is. he's a great player but his skill set demands a certain play style from his teammates. we saw how disastrous it was early last year when westbrook tried to change what he was to fit everyone else. that's just how it is with him. he's not 'to blame'. but putting another 30 usage ball dominant guard next to him is not going to work, and that's the role it appears oladipo was best suited for. not the spot up shooter / defensive role player he was next to westbrook.

[Pillendreher]

Jimmy Butler is approaching cancer territory rather quickly. I wonder what kind of team that guy needs around himself so that the team chemistry doesn't suck. Looks like as soon as he started to "lead", there's been problems ever since. Maybe he needs somebody to do the leading for him so he can settle into a minor role. But does he even want that? Seems to me he's been quite eager to "be the man" since he made the jump to being one of the best players in the league.