RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2018-19

[pootbrah]

Nominate Jrue Holiday, voted Ben Simmons.

[iggymcfrack]

This is a pretty smart forum. I love that Derozan has 0/64 votes for 19th right now. LOL @ Simmons trying to say he was Top 13 or whatever he said after the Kawhi trade.

[pootbrah]

This is a pretty smart forum. I love that Derozan has 0/64 votes for 19th right now. LOL @ Simmons trying to say he was Top 13 or whatever he said after the Kawhi trade.

I'm more surprised John Wall only has 2 votes... I can't remember but he might have even been top 10 last season? An injury riddled season and people are quick to forget. Though I just hate Wall and sick of his talk and him **** me over in fantasy basketball so **** him.

[sixerswillrule]

Yeah Simmons is not as good as Lowry just yet.

[Asif16]

Gotta vote for my boy Kyle Lowry. He's due

[iggymcfrack]

This is a pretty smart forum. I love that Derozan has 0/64 votes for 19th right now. LOL @ Simmons trying to say he was Top 13 or whatever he said after the Kawhi trade.

I'm more surprised John Wall only has 2 votes... I can't remember but he might have even been top 10 last season? An injury riddled season and people are quick to forget. Though I just hate Wall and sick of his talk and him **** me over in fantasy basketball so **** him.

He did have some career numbers in 16/17 so I could see people thinking that was a forward trend and trying to project him to improve ignoring that he’s an athleticism-heavy player who was not likely to be improving at 27. Throughout his history in the league though, I don’t think he’s really been thought of as a Top 15 guy.

[iggymcfrack]

Was just comparing on/off numbers for Derozan and Lowry. It's really fascinating. Here they are since Lowry joined the Raptors:

2012/13 regular season: Lowry +4.5, Derozan -1.9
2013/14 regular season: Lowry +4.2, Derozan -0.3
2014/15 regular season: Lowry +0.9, Derozan -0.9
2015/16 regular season: Lowry +7.3, Derozan -6.1
2016/17 regular season: Lowry +8.7, Derozan -4.7
2017/18 regular season: Lowry -0.9, Derozan -2.7

2013/14 postseason: Lowry +10.4, Derozan -6.6
2014/15 postseason: Lowry +16.3, Derozan -5.3
2015/16 postseason: Lowry +24.4, Derozan -4.8
2016/17 postseason: Lowry +8.9, Derozan -13.1
2017/18 postseason: Lowry +2.3, Derozan -18.1

That's absolutely stunning for 2 players that share the floor as much as Lowry and Derozan. Every single regular season the Raptors are better with Derozan on the bench than the floor. Every single regular season but one, they're better with Lowry on the floor than the bench. Every postseason, they're better with Derozan on the bench by an average of 9 points. Every postseason, they're better with Lowry on the floor by an average of 15 points. Again, these are players that play most of the game together. Can you imagine how bad the Lowry/no Derozan lineups have to blow out the other team and the Derozan/no Lowry lineups have to be getting killed for this to happen? Like they basically have to be playing better than the best team of all-time whenever Lowry plays with Derozan on the bench, and they have to be playing like a D-league team whenever Derozan plays without Lowry. It's honestly insane that 2 players from the same starting lineup can have such incredibly disparate splits.

[bondom34]

Add Kemba, think any of Simmons/Lowry/KAT could be here, and have them all over PG. Went Simmons again.

[iggymcfrack]

Honestly, how is there not more hype on the Raptors this year? They won 59 games with their leading scorer being the guy who somehow can't even have one regular season or playoffs with the team better with him on the court, and now he's getting replaced by Kawhi ****' Leonard??? They should be an all-time great team. There's no reason they can't go toe to toe with Golden State. It's insane to me that they're tied with Philly for second best odds to win the East.

[illuminati666]

Was just comparing on/off numbers for Derozan and Lowry. It's really fascinating. Here they are since Lowry joined the Raptors:

2012/13 regular season: Lowry +4.5, Derozan -1.9
2013/14 regular season: Lowry +4.2, Derozan -0.3
2014/15 regular season: Lowry +0.9, Derozan -0.9
2015/16 regular season: Lowry +7.3, Derozan -6.1
2016/17 regular season: Lowry +8.7, Derozan -4.7
2017/18 regular season: Lowry -0.9, Derozan -2.7

2013/14 postseason: Lowry +10.4, Derozan -6.6
2014/15 postseason: Lowry +16.3, Derozan -5.3
2015/16 postseason: Lowry +24.4, Derozan -4.8
2016/17 postseason: Lowry +8.9, Derozan -13.1
2017/18 postseason: Lowry +2.3, Derozan -18.1

That's absolutely stunning for 2 players that share the floor as much as Lowry and Derozan. Every single regular season the Raptors are better with Derozan on the bench than the floor. Every single regular season but one, they're better with Lowry on the floor than the bench. Every postseason, they're better with Derozan on the bench by an average of 9 points. Every postseason, they're better with Lowry on the floor by an average of 15 points. Again, these are players that play most of the game together. Can you imagine how bad the Lowry/no Derozan lineups have to blow out the other team and the Derozan/no Lowry lineups have to be getting killed for this to happen? Like they basically have to be playing better than the best team of all-time whenever Lowry plays with Derozan on the bench, and they have to be playing like a D-league team whenever Derozan plays without Lowry. It's honestly insane that 2 players from the same starting lineup can have such incredibly disparate splits.

Oh my god, I knew there was a significant difference but I didn't know it was this much. A lot more love for Lowry

[picc]

Honestly, how is there not more hype on the Raptors this year? They won 59 games with their leading scorer being the guy who somehow can't even have one regular season or playoffs with the team better with him on the court, and now he's getting replaced by Kawhi ****' Leonard??? They should be an all-time great team. There's no reason they can't go toe to toe with Golden State. It's insane to me that they're tied with Philly for second best odds to win the East.

They're going to be monsters. I agree its not getting enough attention. If Kawhi is close to where he was before, along with the growth of their young players, logic would tell you the Raptors have a legit shot at the title. I think Toronto/Boston is going to go 7 in the ECF and give GS hell either one.

[picc]

Will probably vote for Lowry, although its very close with Horford.

Simmons and Towns don't deserve to go this high until they prove they can't be made into actual court liabilities during the part of the season that matters the most.

[slothrop8]

Was just comparing on/off numbers for Derozan and Lowry. It's really fascinating. Here they are since Lowry joined the Raptors:

2012/13 regular season: Lowry +4.5, Derozan -1.9
2013/14 regular season: Lowry +4.2, Derozan -0.3
2014/15 regular season: Lowry +0.9, Derozan -0.9
2015/16 regular season: Lowry +7.3, Derozan -6.1
2016/17 regular season: Lowry +8.7, Derozan -4.7
2017/18 regular season: Lowry -0.9, Derozan -2.7

2013/14 postseason: Lowry +10.4, Derozan -6.6
2014/15 postseason: Lowry +16.3, Derozan -5.3
2015/16 postseason: Lowry +24.4, Derozan -4.8
2016/17 postseason: Lowry +8.9, Derozan -13.1
2017/18 postseason: Lowry +2.3, Derozan -18.1

That's absolutely stunning for 2 players that share the floor as much as Lowry and Derozan. Every single regular season the Raptors are better with Derozan on the bench than the floor. Every single regular season but one, they're better with Lowry on the floor than the bench. Every postseason, they're better with Derozan on the bench by an average of 9 points. Every postseason, they're better with Lowry on the floor by an average of 15 points. Again, these are players that play most of the game together. Can you imagine how bad the Lowry/no Derozan lineups have to blow out the other team and the Derozan/no Lowry lineups have to be getting killed for this to happen? Like they basically have to be playing better than the best team of all-time whenever Lowry plays with Derozan on the bench, and they have to be playing like a D-league team whenever Derozan plays without Lowry. It's honestly insane that 2 players from the same starting lineup can have such incredibly disparate splits.

DeRozan’s All NBA selections the past two seasons will be viewed by serious basketball analysts of the future as some of the most absurd award choices in team sports history. Only Norman Powell’s complete collapse prevented DeRozan from being 3rd team All Raptors Guard - he was definitely worse than Lowry, Wright, and VanVleet - and he was voted 2nd team All NBA. Complete insanity. The Raptors were always better without him on the floor, but at least he didn’t hurt them too badly in the regular season - his regular season offence was good enough that he’d generally be no worse than their 8th to 10th best player. In the playoffs though when his offence collapsed - he was the 15th best player on a 15 man roster - one of the worst high minute playoff performers of the past 40 years.

Anyway, I vote Lowry though Towns is a very defensible choice.

[iggymcfrack]

Was just comparing on/off numbers for Derozan and Lowry. It's really fascinating. Here they are since Lowry joined the Raptors:

2012/13 regular season: Lowry +4.5, Derozan -1.9
2013/14 regular season: Lowry +4.2, Derozan -0.3
2014/15 regular season: Lowry +0.9, Derozan -0.9
2015/16 regular season: Lowry +7.3, Derozan -6.1
2016/17 regular season: Lowry +8.7, Derozan -4.7
2017/18 regular season: Lowry -0.9, Derozan -2.7

2013/14 postseason: Lowry +10.4, Derozan -6.6
2014/15 postseason: Lowry +16.3, Derozan -5.3
2015/16 postseason: Lowry +24.4, Derozan -4.8
2016/17 postseason: Lowry +8.9, Derozan -13.1
2017/18 postseason: Lowry +2.3, Derozan -18.1

That's absolutely stunning for 2 players that share the floor as much as Lowry and Derozan. Every single regular season the Raptors are better with Derozan on the bench than the floor. Every single regular season but one, they're better with Lowry on the floor than the bench. Every postseason, they're better with Derozan on the bench by an average of 9 points. Every postseason, they're better with Lowry on the floor by an average of 15 points. Again, these are players that play most of the game together. Can you imagine how bad the Lowry/no Derozan lineups have to blow out the other team and the Derozan/no Lowry lineups have to be getting killed for this to happen? Like they basically have to be playing better than the best team of all-time whenever Lowry plays with Derozan on the bench, and they have to be playing like a D-league team whenever Derozan plays without Lowry. It's honestly insane that 2 players from the same starting lineup can have such incredibly disparate splits.

DeRozan’s All NBA selections the past two seasons will be viewed by serious basketball analysts of the future as some of the most absurd award choices in team sports history. Only Norman Powell’s complete collapse prevented DeRozan from being 3rd team All Raptors Guard - he was definitely worse than Lowry, Wright, and VanVleet - and he was voted 2nd team All NBA. Complete insanity. The Raptors were always better without him on the floor, but at least he didn’t hurt them too badly in the regular season - his regular season offence was good enough that he’d generally be no worse than their 8th to 10th best player. In the playoffs though when his offence collapsed - he was the 15th best player on a 15 man roster - one of the worst high minute playoff performers of the past 40 years.

Anyway, I vote Lowry though Towns is a very defensible choice.

This is slight hyperbole. I see that Lucas Noguiera played 24 minutes and was 1/1/1 with 3 turnovers and 6 fouls. The Raptors had a NetRtg of -48.9 with him on the floor. So he’d be the worst. Derozan’s legitimately been sub-starter caliber over his 5 postseasons though. I still can’t believe the Spurs gave up Kawhi for the chance to pay him $90 million.

[PizzaSteve]

Ben Simmons over Klay is a wow for me.

[iggymcfrack]

Ben Simmons over Klay is a wow for me.

Really? You know it's for next year, right? Simmons was getting top 10 hype before Stevens shut him down in the playoffs. And one of the main reasons for that was how much he improved over the course of the season. How much do you think he'll improve with an entire year? I would have taken him over Kyrie and Lillard for sure. He could be an absolute monster next season.

[mdonnelly1989]

Karl Anthony Towns offensive game is clearly the best on the board, so I'll go him.

[ReKon]

Voted for Wall. Biased a bit but attitude issues aside he is the best point guard in the East imo. Yes that means over Kyrie and Lowry. I just feel that him being injury prone and his attitude make it really hard for fans to root for him. I can't vote for Lowry based on the fact that I see him as a lesser point guard to Wall and until Simmons gets a semblance of a jumper I can't vote for him either, but that doesn't mean he can easily be a top 10 player once he becomes more of a perimeter threat. Between Towns and Wall I went with Wall based on the ugly performances Towns gave us in the playoffs this last season and because Wall is more of a two way player

Glad PG was voted in the previous one as well as he was my vote. I am reading some hot takes in these threads that make me scratch my head. I would put PG over Draymond definitely for example. You do realise the guy has actually carried his team to the playoffs a year after a gruesome injury and gave the Raps a good battle right? That wasn't too long ago. Draymond is an elite role player who gets the benefit of the doubt by playing with 3 elite scorers/shooters.

I nominate Kemba

[iggymcfrack]

Glad PG was voted in the previous one as well as he was my vote. I am reading some hot takes in these threads that make me scratch my head. I would put PG over Draymond definitely for example. You do realise the guy has actually carried his team to the playoffs a year after a gruesome injury and gave the Raps a good battle right? That wasn't too long ago. Draymond is an elite role player who gets the benefit of the doubt by playing with 3 elite scorers/shooters.

I nominate Kemba

That same year you’re talking about where George went 3-4 in the playoffs against Toronto, Draymond played 6 playoff games without Curry and went 4-2. He averaged 19/11/8 over those games. That was before Durant was even around. When Dray’s had to play without a superstar lead scorer, he’s done very well. He was honestly pretty similar to George even in the box score that year without even getting into his unique defensive impact.

[DCRYsing89]

I have researched the whole Lowry over Wall thing and found there is actually a arguement there.
Same with klay over wall, just matters what you value.

But in no Way is KAT better than Wall at the current moment,
Wall went up against Avery Bradley (an elite defender) and helped fight the Cs to 7 games a couple years ago.
Towns went up against Capela (an elite defender) and got shut down, cancelled out in most games.
You combine this with that Towns Defence is serverly lacking, and it should be a no brainer Wall over Towns.
Maybe in a couple years this will be different, last year Towns did seem better though because Wall was injured, in the playoffs Wall outperformed towns.
But atm Wall is far superior to Towns.

And what is all this Simmons love about, yes a great player, but not above Wall.
Wall is easily the better scorer (Cs shut down simmons, again what happened with Wall vs Cs?)
Both great playmakers, though Wall is more proven, though if simmons progresses this may change this year or next (I understand the numerical difference is because of the team style of play).
Defensively Simmons is great, but Wall is like All-1st team defence.
Wall is more turnover prone but this is again because of team style of play, and simmons would be similar in the same circumstances.
You cant make an arguement for Simmons over Wall next year, any year after that is up for grabs, but not this coming year, Wall is proven as a star and simmons is still only new on the scene.

If yall disagree I am happy for a debate.

Add Drummond or Hayward
Drummonds a beast
And Hayward will be back pretty solid.