RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#24 2018-19

[Effigy]

I voted for Mitchell. I think Booker should be added.

[Patches Perry]

Horford. His impact is underrated. Mitchell will be better maybe as soon as next season but not yet.

[Jadoogar]

Man people are really down on Gordon Hayward. I know he got hurt but it's not like a debilitating injury.

[bisme37]

Horford over some of those guys is pretty far out.

I understand the advanced metrics argument and all and he is a damned good player but there are better players on the list.

SI Top 100 that just came out has Horford at #16 in the NBA.

[bisme37]

Man people are really down on Gordon Hayward. I know he got hurt but it's not like a debilitating injury.

I imagine a lot of fans just haven't watched Hayward play as much as they've seen other all stars. Utah doesn't get on national TV a ton and he only played 5 minutes for Boston. And while he should be fully recovered from the injury it's still legit to wonder if he'll take a minute to round back into form. As long as he doesn't have any more appendages fall off I bet he'll be ranked highly in this poll a year from now.

[bondom34]

Man people are really down on Gordon Hayward. I know he got hurt but it's not like a debilitating injury.

I imagine a lot of fans just haven't watched Hayward play as much as they've seen other all stars. Utah doesn't get on national TV a ton and he only played 5 minutes for Boston. And while he should be fully recovered from the injury it's still legit to wonder if he'll take a minute to round back into form. As long as he doesn't have any more appendages fall off I bet he'll be ranked highly in this poll a year from now.

PG did something similar and took a while to get back. He barely played that season and was pretty bad relatively. If he were healthy I'd say he's about as good as George, but I think it might take a little while to get up to speed.

[clyde21]

When do we consider Porzingis, or are we completely removing him like Cousins?

[Harry Garris]

It's Horford time. Add McCollum

[Asif16]

Horford here. Nominate Booker

[HeartBreakKid]

My vote is on Blake Griffin for now, but I could go for Donovan or Horford - I've been switching.

I nominate Jayson Tatum

[yoyoboy]

Man people are really down on Gordon Hayward. I know he got hurt but it's not like a debilitating injury.

I imagine a lot of fans just haven't watched Hayward play as much as they've seen other all stars. Utah doesn't get on national TV a ton and he only played 5 minutes for Boston. And while he should be fully recovered from the injury it's still legit to wonder if he'll take a minute to round back into form. As long as he doesn't have any more appendages fall off I bet he'll be ranked highly in this poll a year from now.

PG did something similar and took a while to get back. He barely played that season and was pretty bad relatively. If he were healthy I'd say he's about as good as George, but I think it might take a little while to get up to speed.

Not to mention George isn't the defender or athlete he was pre-injury. He's compensated for that by becoming an amazing shooter though. Guys who miss entire seasons due to injury very rarely come back at the same level. Comparing Gordon's situation to other guys who missed virtually an entire season in their playing career (which I'll define as less than 10% of the season)...

Larry Bird:
1988: 8.8 BPM
1989: 6 games played
1990: 6.1 BPM
Net: -2.7

David Robinson:
1996: 9.2 BPM
1997: 6 games played
1998: 7.8 BPM
Net: -1.4

Derrick Rose:
2012: 4.9 BPM
2013: 0 games played
2014: 10 games played
2015: -1.3 BPM
Net: -6.2

Penny Hardaway:
2000: 3.6 BPM
2001: 4 games played
2002: 0.0 BPM
Net: -3.6

Grant Hill:
2000: 4.8 BPM
2001: 4 games played
2002: -0.8 BPM (only 14 games played)
2003: 1.6 BPM
Net: -3.2

Amar'e Stoudemire:
2005: 3.4 BPM
2006: 3 games played
2007: 1.6 BPM
Net: -1.8
*He did post a 3.9 BPM in 2008 though so he seems to be an exception

Bill Walton:
1978: 7.0 BPM
1979: 0 games played
1980: 1.1 BPM
Net: -5.9

Kobe Bryant:
2013: 4.7 BPM
2014: 6 games played
2015: 0.3 BPM
Net: -4.4

Yao Ming:
2009: 3.0 BPM
2010: 0 games played
2011: - 2.8 BPM
Net: -5.8

Andrew Bynum:
2012: 1.8 BPM
2013: 0 games played
2014: -3.4 BPM
Net: -5.2

Sam Bowie:
1986: 1.6 BPM
1987: 5 games played
1988: 0 games played
1989: -1.2 BPM
Net: -2.8

Michael Jordan:
1993: 9.5 BPM
1994: 0 games played
1995: 2.7 BPM (17 games played)
1996: 8.6 BPM
Net: -0.9

Paul George:
2014: 4.7 BPM
2015: 6 games played
2016: 4.5 BPM
Net: -0.2

Average Decline in BPM: -3.4

Those are the guys off the top of my head. Now, I do want to make mention of the facts that:

A) Robinson, Bird, Jordan were already a bit over 30 when they got injured/decided to play baseball so the normal aging curve definitely should be taken into account. Bird was clearly affected by his back, however, and I intentionally omitted Kobe here because even though he was 34 when he got injured and 36 when he returned, he was obviously hampered by the Achilles tear.

B) Medical technology and knowledge are at peak form right now, which will certainly insure that Hayward sees the best recovery possible. And many of the aforementioned players had injuries that were more severe than Hayward's.

But I do think it goes without saying that EVEN in the case of a complete physical recovery, going an entire year without real game reps makes it very difficult to just come back and play like you were never gone. And despite Gordon's foot injury not being extremely debilitating I think a lot of people are overlooking just how easily any injury - especially one as traumatizing as his - can really throw off the way a player plays from that point on. I'm even uncertain of how Kawhi will look when he returns; I think both guys will probably still look very good when they're back but I think those who believe they'll return to their same position in the NBA ranking that they were at pre-injury is being a bit ignorant to what history has shown us in sports.

[yoyoboy]

When do we consider Porzingis, or are we completely removing him like Cousins?

To be honest, I wouldn't have ranked Cousins yet assuming he never even got injured. I'm just not very high on his impact (generally poor lazy defense, high turnover rate, high foul rate) and I think people really overlook how much of an issue he's been in the locker room despite his position as a "leader" throughout his career. He's also extremely ball dominant, ranking 3rd in touches per game in the entire league at 89.4 behind only Westbrook and Simmons and ahead of much more efficient creators than him in LeBron, Harden, Curry, Durant, etc. His 3.9 minutes of playing time holding the ball per game came in at 1st among all big men. Second place Jokic in that category at 3.1 mpg didn't even see 80% of that, so it's not like it was close either.

I don't think other players enjoy playing with Cousins to be honest. New Orleans looked like a better synergy team that really enjoyed playing together after Boogie went down. Many teams supposedly weren't even interested in making an offer to Cousins before he went down with one of, if not the most debilitating injury in sports that guys try to return from. And that's not because he's not a special, dominant talent. Everyone recognizes his combination of sheer physical presence and skill. He should really be a top 10 player at worst at this point. But everyone also sees how immature he is, how he hasn't been the best teammate to play with, and how he opts to play a style of game that looks good in his individual stats but doesn't provide the kind of lift at the team level that it suggests.

And so for me, based on his ACTUAL play the past couple seasons and not his POTENTIAL level of play, I would have him around 28th-29th in the league. And once you throw the Achilles tear into the equation, which has rendered virtually every athlete who's experienced it a shell of their former selves...it's not hard to see why Cousins hasn't been seriously considered yet.

Now, I do want to say I think Cousins can potentially find a very good role in Golden State and be an impactful player. But I don't expect him to be at the same level athletically as before. And that's fine; on that team, he doesn't need to be. He needs to be a low usage big who focuses more on defense and utilizes his size/gravity down low and passing ability to create shots for GS's shooters. While not holding the ball for too long and giving up a bunch of turnovers like he usually does. It's going to be interesting to see how the Warriors manage his personality and fit him into the system, but I don't think they would've risked signing him (especially coming off of 3 titles in 4 years when they have no reason to be scared of any other team) if they weren't confident they could do just that. If he's going to be truly effective in GS he's much better off being a 13 ppg / 10 rpg / 3 apg kind of big though. Give him the kind of responsibility he's desired throughout his career though and the Warriors are going to be a clearly worse team with him.

[Steelo Green]

Horford over some of those guys is pretty far out.

I understand the advanced metrics argument and all and he is a damned good player but there are better players on the list.

SI Top 100 that just came out has Horford at #16 in the NBA.

SI is a terrible reference point. They have bad picks year in and year out. They just make a list for shock value for clicks.

I said this before, not because it doesn't fit the narrative now.

[bisme37]

Horford over some of those guys is pretty far out.

I understand the advanced metrics argument and all and he is a damned good player but there are better players on the list.

SI Top 100 that just came out has Horford at #16 in the NBA.

SI is a terrible reference point. They have bad picks year in and year out. They just make a list for shock value for clicks.

I said this before, not because it doesn't fit the narrative now.

Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man. Haha.

Seriously though I think SI's ranking is well reasoned. The guy earlier who told you you need to watch more Horford, sounds like you took it as an insult but Horford really is one of those players you have to watch to appreciate. Dude has no holes in his game and was just the 2nd best player in the entire East Playoffs after LeBron.

From the SI article:
"Horford (12.9 PPG, 7.4 RPG, 4.7 APG) is a patron saint of the Top 100, in that he embodies so many of the attributes we tend to value highly. He plays both sides of the ball without condition, and in a way that makes everyone around him better. His game is both reliable enough to anchor a team and versatile enough to allow for changes on the fly. He fits the modern game. Nothing in Horford’s style or skill set would make him a target in a playoff series. If anything, his incredible basketball literacy would poke holes in an opponent’s game plan in real time. The way he plays upholds a standard and the way he carries himself can establish a culture. Horford exudes a winning effect. He was one of the most important players in the entire league last season, and this ranking reflects that."

[sixerswillrule]

Horford over some of those guys is pretty far out.

I understand the advanced metrics argument and all and he is a damned good player but there are better players on the list.

Relative to ESPN ranking him at #16, #24 seems reasonable.

[Mogspan]

When do we consider Porzingis, or are we completely removing him like Cousins?

Why are you so high on Boogie? The dude suffered an injury from which virtually no one in the sport's history has made a near-full recovery. I hope that he returns to form, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'll never again be a top 50 player.

[clyde21]

When do we consider Porzingis, or are we completely removing him like Cousins?

Why are you so high on Boogie? The dude suffered an injury from which virtually no one in the sport's history has made a near-full recovery. I hope that he returns to form, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'll never again be a top 50 player.

Give me the list of NBA players EVER who posted 25/13/5.5/2/2.

I'll give you a hint: you can count them on one hand.

[lakerz12]

When do we consider Porzingis, or are we completely removing him like Cousins?

Why are you so high on Boogie? The dude suffered an injury from which virtually no one in the sport's history has made a near-full recovery. I hope that he returns to form, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'll never again be a top 50 player.

While I don't disagree with you, but...Boogie has a unique skill set. At 6'11", 270 lbs to be able to rebound, pass and shoot the 3. He's a lethal offensive weapon.

Averaged 26.5 / 12 / 4 / 1.5 / 1.4 over the past 5 seasons.

These numbers in many ways are better than Embiid's (who was voted as being 11th overall). I know Embiid is a superior defender but Cousins is a bit underrated in that department imo.

Assuming Cousins gets anywhere close to what he once was, I can see why people could be high on him.

There are many good SG/SF's in this league. There are only a small handful of elite C's (edit: who can shoot, pass, and handle the ball like Boogie).

[Mogspan]

When do we consider Porzingis, or are we completely removing him like Cousins?

Why are you so high on Boogie? The dude suffered an injury from which virtually no one in the sport's history has made a near-full recovery. I hope that he returns to form, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'll never again be a top 50 player.

Give me the list of NBA players EVER who posted 25/13/5.5/2/2.

I'll give you a hint: you can count them on one hand.

He's a great talent for sure, but I think you're underestimating the devastation that is an achilles tear. Here's a good 11-minute video on the subject:

Watch on YouTube

[clyde21]

Why are you so high on Boogie? The dude suffered an injury from which virtually no one in the sport's history has made a near-full recovery. I hope that he returns to form, but I wouldn't be surprised if he'll never again be a top 50 player.

Give me the list of NBA players EVER who posted 25/13/5.5/2/2.

I'll give you a hint: you can count them on one hand.

He's a great talent for sure, but I think you're underestimating the devastation that is an achilles tear. Here's a good 11-minute video on the subject:

I'm not interested in a debate about how much Cousins will regress because of the injury, all I (we) can go on is how he looked before the injury, and should probably deserve the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Or we can just leave him off the list all together like we did, but then the same question should probably get posed about Porzingis at this point as well, since he probably should've been already ranked a long time ago.