The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project (And Another PROJECT)

[Gibson22]

PG Locks as of now:
Payton
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Frazier
KC Jones
Norm Van Lier
West

other guys mentioned Wali Jones, Al Attles, Blaylock, Rondo, Beverley, Cheeks, Don Buse, Dennis Johnson, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow, Derek Harper

Always been a huge Stockton stan here but he's not up to the level of Mo Cheeks, prime Dennis Johnson, or even Mookie Blaylock among his contemporaries although if you count longevity heavily, I can see it.

I agree

[70sFan]

If you want DJ among PGs, sure he's lock but it doesn't make much sense for me. He played as a SG on both sides of the floor for half of his career and when he became floor general in Boston, Ainge guarded smaller and quicker players. The only time I remember DJ guarding PG is against the Lakers because LAL had freak 6'8 point guard at that time.

[Gibson22]

If you want DJ among PGs, sure he's lock but it doesn't make much sense for me. He played as a SG on both sides of the floor for half of his career and when he became floor general in Boston, Ainge guarded smaller and quicker players. The only time I remember DJ guarding PG is against the Lakers because LAL had freak 6'8 point guard at that time.

Mhhh, then we should decide what to do about him. I don't know.

[trex_8063]

PG Locks as of now:
Payton
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Frazier
KC Jones
Norm Van Lier
West

other guys mentioned Wali Jones, Al Attles, Blaylock, Rondo, Beverley, Cheeks, Don Buse, Dennis Johnson, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow, Derek Harper

Cheeks and Blaylock are my next choices, though Harper and Buse are good options too.

Absolutely agree. Blaylock's DRAPM's were monstrous for a guard, as were his on/off (or before/after) numbers, even in the twilight of his career. He's got the honors/accolades to go with it, and on video (was watching part of the '97 series against Chicago not real long ago) he looks like a terror out there.

I would more or less say the same things about Cheeks. tbh, I would have these two above a few of the other names that have already been "locked" in.
Next in line for me likely Rubio or DJ (I've always tended to lump DJ with the PG's, but I don't feel strongly about it; would be OK if he's considered with the SG's, too).

[70sFan]

PG Locks as of now:
Payton
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Frazier
KC Jones
Norm Van Lier
West

other guys mentioned Wali Jones, Al Attles, Blaylock, Rondo, Beverley, Cheeks, Don Buse, Dennis Johnson, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow, Derek Harper

Cheeks and Blaylock are my next choices, though Harper and Buse are good options too.

Absolutely agree. Blaylock's DRAPM's were monstrous for a guard, as were his on/off (or before/after) numbers, even in the twilight of his career. He's got the honors/accolades to go with it, and on video (was watching part of the '97 series against Chicago not real long ago) he looks like a terror out there.

I would more or less say the same things about Cheeks. tbh, I would have these two above a few of the other names that have already been "locked" in.
Next in line for me likely Rubio or DJ (I've always tended to lump DJ with the PG's, but I don't feel strongly about it; would be OK if he's considered with the SG's, too).

Which ones?

[70sFan]

PG Locks as of now:
Payton
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Frazier
KC Jones
Norm Van Lier
West

other guys mentioned Wali Jones, Al Attles, Blaylock, Rondo, Beverley, Cheeks, Don Buse, Dennis Johnson, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow, Derek Harper

Always been a huge Stockton stan here but he's not up to the level of Mo Cheeks, prime Dennis Johnson, or even Mookie Blaylock among his contemporaries although if you count longevity heavily, I can see it.

He's better defender than CP3 for me, so I wouldn't put him last in this list. His man defense isn't the best among mentioned, but his help defense is something special among small guards. Quick hands, quick feet and great BBIQ made him absolutely terrific defender.

[migya]

PG Locks as of now:
Payton
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Frazier
KC Jones
Norm Van Lier
West

other guys mentioned Wali Jones, Al Attles, Blaylock, Rondo, Beverley, Cheeks, Don Buse, Dennis Johnson, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow, Derek Harper

Always been a huge Stockton stan here but he's not up to the level of Mo Cheeks, prime Dennis Johnson, or even Mookie Blaylock among his contemporaries although if you count longevity heavily, I can see it.

He's better defender than CP3 for me, so I wouldn't put him last in this list. His man defense isn't the best among mentioned, but his help defense is something special among small guards. Quick hands, quick feet and great BBIQ made him absolutely terrific defender.

Stockton was a great defender and among the best at PG.

[trex_8063]

Cheeks and Blaylock are my next choices, though Harper and Buse are good options too.

Absolutely agree. Blaylock's DRAPM's were monstrous for a guard, as were his on/off (or before/after) numbers, even in the twilight of his career. He's got the honors/accolades to go with it, and on video (was watching part of the '97 series against Chicago not real long ago) he looks like a terror out there.

I would more or less say the same things about Cheeks. tbh, I would have these two above a few of the other names that have already been "locked" in.
Next in line for me likely Rubio or DJ (I've always tended to lump DJ with the PG's, but I don't feel strongly about it; would be OK if he's considered with the SG's, too).

Which ones?

Honestly, I'd probably put them both ahead of Walt Frazier; I'm just not as high on his defense as many seem to be. He had great anticipation and got a lot of steals (some gambling, fwiw), and he's got nice size for a PG, which is generally an asset defensively (as long as you're quick enough to stay with the smaller guards). But I'd reviewed his defense [intensely---in a play-by-play fashion] over a couple games of film, and I was somewhat underwhelmed (at least relative to what I expected to see) with his half-court defense. He lost track of his man off-ball a couple times (who was Jerry West in one of the games reviewed--->not exactly someone you want to lose track of), missed a rotation on a defensive break-down, etc. There were just a few too many mistakes for a tip-top tier defender, imo.

I'd probably put them ahead of K.C. Jones too. Reason there being some questions/skepticisms regarding the relative strengths of eras, as well as his relatively lack of longevity: Jones played just 17,501 career rs minutes. Both Mookie and Cheeks played nearly twice that many (so in some semblance of CAREER defensive imprint, as OP has stipulated within this thread, that can easily be a significant consideration).

vs Van Lier, I'd probably hedge toward putting them ahead of him also.

tbh, even Payton could be in jeopardy. Although a fantastic defensive peak, I don't think his defense was consistently great in his prime (and definitely not thru his post-prime). So he's one of at least 1-2 others that I'm not 100% comfortable saying they're better than Mookie or Mo defensively.

[trex_8063]

PG Locks as of now:
Payton
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Frazier
KC Jones
Norm Van Lier
West

other guys mentioned Wali Jones, Al Attles, Blaylock, Rondo, Beverley, Cheeks, Don Buse, Dennis Johnson, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow, Derek Harper

Always been a huge Stockton stan here but he's not up to the level of Mo Cheeks, prime Dennis Johnson, or even Mookie Blaylock among his contemporaries although if you count longevity heavily, I can see it.

He's better defender than CP3 for me, so I wouldn't put him last in this list. His man defense isn't the best among mentioned, but his help defense is something special among small guards. Quick hands, quick feet and great BBIQ made him absolutely terrific defender.

Sort of tying right into the bolded is that he was a downright dirty defensive player. And I say that with a huge amount of respect and even affection (as he's probably one of my most admired players of all-time, and seems like a genuinely classy family-man). But he was so good at knowing exactly how much grabbing, holding, pushing, etc that he could get away with, without getting the whistle.......and he would put that sense to terrific use night-in, night-out.

[Gibson22]

At how many names should we end it?

[trex_8063]

At how many names should we end it?

Well, if you're looking to vote on the 10 best defensive players at each position, I'd say there should be [at least] 15-20 candidates in the starting pool to choose from.

[Gibson22]

At how many names should we end it?

Well, if you're looking to vote on the 10 best defensive players at each position, I'd say there should be [at least] 15-20 candidates in the starting pool to choose from.

So we have 22 names right now, 21+1 Dennis Johnson (PG or SG?). I think Don Buse is a lock too.

Wali Jones, Al Attles, Rondo, Beverley, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow.

In this group, who are the worst defenders? I would exclude Eric Snow as I feel like I'm the only one that considers him a great defender.

I don't know about the first two guys.

Maybe we should focus on Rondo, Beverley, Rubio, Billups, Jrue.

Who are the worst 2 defenders in that group?

[trex_8063]

At how many names should we end it?

Well, if you're looking to vote on the 10 best defensive players at each position, I'd say there should be [at least] 15-20 candidates in the starting pool to choose from.

So we have 22 names right now, 21+1 Dennis Johnson (PG or SG?). I think Don Buse is a lock too.

Wali Jones, Al Attles, Rondo, Beverley, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow.

In this group, who are the worst defenders? I would exclude Eric Snow as I feel like I'm the only one that considers him a great defender.

I don't know about the first two guys.

Maybe we should focus on Rondo, Beverley, Rubio, Billups, Jrue.

Who are the worst 2 defenders in that group?

Is this still part of the narrowing down the field of candidates, or has the voting officially begun?
Out of Wali Jones, Attles, Rondo, Rubio, Billups, Holiday, Snow, and Beverly (ALL players listed in your above post), I'd probably drop Billups and either Rondo or Attles or Jones. If I'm being limited to only those five you cited in the bolded line, that'd be Billups and Rondo.

[Gibson22]

Well, if you're looking to vote on the 10 best defensive players at each position, I'd say there should be [at least] 15-20 candidates in the starting pool to choose from.

So we have 22 names right now, 21+1 Dennis Johnson (PG or SG?). I think Don Buse is a lock too.

Wali Jones, Al Attles, Rondo, Beverley, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow.

In this group, who are the worst defenders? I would exclude Eric Snow as I feel like I'm the only one that considers him a great defender.

I don't know about the first two guys.

Maybe we should focus on Rondo, Beverley, Rubio, Billups, Jrue.

Who are the worst 2 defenders in that group?

Is this still part of the narrowing down the field of candidates, or has the voting officially begun?
Out of Wali Jones, Attles, Rondo, Rubio, Billups, Holiday, Snow, and Beverly (ALL players listed in your above post), I'd probably drop Billups and either Rondo or Attles or Jones. If I'm being limited to only those five you cited in the bolded line, that'd be Billups and Rondo.

Still part of the narrowing down the field of candidates.
I said those 5 names because they are modern players that we know better, and I tought that you guys don't think that Eric Snow belongs in this list, but maybe I was mistaken. Out of those 8 guys, I would drop Rondo and Rubio, but I don't know Wali and Attles

[SkyHookFTW]

PG Locks as of now:
Payton
CP3
Stockton
Kidd
Frazier
KC Jones
Norm Van Lier
West

other guys mentioned Wali Jones, Al Attles, Blaylock, Rondo, Beverley, Cheeks, Don Buse, Dennis Johnson, Ricki Rubio, Billups, Jrue Holiday, Eric Snow, Derek Harper

I'd put Cheeks on this list, he was a damn good defender despite his size.

[trex_8063]

Still part of the narrowing down the field of candidates.
I said those 5 names because they are modern players that we know better, and I tought that you guys don't think that Eric Snow belongs in this list, but maybe I was mistaken. Out of those 8 guys, I would drop Rondo and Rubio, but I don't know Wali and Attles

I'd rate Eric Snow above both Billups and Rondo defensively; Wali Jones and Al Attles, too. I'd agree he's a valid inclusion as a candidate. Don't know if I'd rate him ahead of Ricky Rubio, though. Rubio's a legit good defender; maybe I should save this for an actual voting thread, but I'm gonna try to sell him to you a little now....

While this isn't reflected in Rubio's block numbers (which are pretty minimal), he's decent at contesting jump shooters and is generally good at moving his feet and keeping in front of his man. He's got a fairly slight frame (which I think is part of why he's never been a good finisher near the rim); however, this doesn't seem to be a major issue for him as far as getting hung up on screens is concerned.
He's just kind of......slippery on the screens. And if he does get rubbed off a little, he's got excellent length/reach for a PG, which he uses to fan those long arms into the passing windows. He uses that length well in a general sense (along with his excellent anticipation) to get into passing lanes and such, and he's engaged every defensive possession. As a reflection of this: he was 10th in the league in total deflections this year (he was 3rd in the league last year).

His defensive on/off's by year were as follows: -7.2, -0.2, -1.0, -8.2, -2.3, +1.6, -0.5 (though -15.1 in playoffs).

I would say a definite trend is there, quite consistently a positive influence on the team's DRtg (at times by a super-elite outlier degree). The one unfavorable defensive on/off [the +1.6 in '17] seems like an aberration amidst the rest of his numbers. Can't seem to get NBAWOWY! to work correctly, so I can't check for line-up noise, but I suspect it may have something to do with large chunks of his minutes being on court with KAT and Wiggins.
His DRAPM's are pretty consistently elite; by year......
'12 (NPI): +1.9
'13: +2.4
'14 (NPI): +1.31
'15: +2.32
'16: +2.45
'17: -0.17
'18 (rs only): +1.97

Again, the '17 number sort of an aberration relative to the rest of his career (possibly some line-up noise??), especially given he was 3rd in the league in deflections that year.
At any rate, there's a hefty amount of defensive value to his career. He's a solid candidate.


btw, is Nate McMillan lumped in with the SG's? If not, he almost certainly should be a candidate with the PG's; that guy was a remarkable defender.

Also, I want to throw one more name out there for consideration: Kyle Lowry.

[Samurai]

[
Still part of the narrowing down the field of candidates.
I said those 5 names because they are modern players that we know better, and I tought that you guys don't think that Eric Snow belongs in this list, but maybe I was mistaken. Out of those 8 guys, I would drop Rondo and Rubio, but I don't know Wali and Attles

Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but this type of thought process seems to naturally lend itself to favoring modern players and the old-timers get ignored. I understand that there are a few posters that may go a bit overboard in terms of their propping up the old-timers, but this type of clear favoring of modern players serves as a basis for those posters. Unless there is something in the selection methodology that can help guard against this type of bias, most any poll will likely be skewed heavily towards modern players. Maybe just be honest and call the list something like "best defenders of the past 15 years" or something more accurate than "best of all time".

Or as an old guy I could just very well be getting more cranky about all types of bias in today's divided world. If so, I can just go outside and find some more clouds to yell at....

[Gibson22]

[
Still part of the narrowing down the field of candidates.
I said those 5 names because they are modern players that we know better, and I tought that you guys don't think that Eric Snow belongs in this list, but maybe I was mistaken. Out of those 8 guys, I would drop Rondo and Rubio, but I don't know Wali and Attles

Maybe I am misunderstanding this, but this type of thought process seems to naturally lend itself to favoring modern players and the old-timers get ignored. I understand that there are a few posters that may go a bit overboard in terms of their propping up the old-timers, but this type of clear favoring of modern players serves as a basis for those posters. Unless there is something in the selection methodology that can help guard against this type of bias, most any poll will likely be skewed heavily towards modern players. Maybe just be honest and call the list something like "best defenders of the past 15 years" or something more accurate than "best of all time".

Or as an old guy I could just very well be getting more cranky about all types of bias in today's divided world. If so, I can just go outside and find some more clouds to yell at....

It's my fault, I was trying to say that, since we know the modern guys better, let's decide who should we drop between rubio, rondo, snow, beverley, billups etc, and then we will focus on the old players

[trex_8063]

One more possible name for consideration among PG’s: Mike Conley??

[Gibson22]

One more possible name for consideration among PG’s: Mike Conley??

Yeah forgot about him