Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

[queridiculo]

2012 Chicago Bulls, ASSEMBLE!

Only a matter of time before they add Noah.

Good to see Deng get a chance to play at least.

[payitforward]

The Nets have signed Alan Williams to a 2-way contract.

Alan Williams is an NBA player. When he gets minutes he produces. 2 years ago, when he got 700 minutes, he averaged 17 rebounds per 40 minutes.

One of those guys who is out of fashion -- a big that doesn't shoot the 3.

You can take any idea too far. A guy gets you almost 5.5 offensive rebounds every 40 minutes, you want him on the floor a fair amount.

[pcbothwel]

Dear god ya'll... Wolves are falling apart.
Butler appears to be asking out (Or at least clarifying to FO that he will NOT resign)...
Now this

Read on Twitter

One of my FAVORITE prospects from two years ago (I believe Nat and CCJ liked him too)

Really too bad.

[payitforward]

Hawks sign Cole Aldrich to a camp deal.

Raptors sign Eric Moreland to a camp deal.

Aldrich was the #11 pick -- a lottery pick -- in 2010. The Hawks have 15 guys on guaranteed contracts; no job for him in Atlanta.

Moreland played well enough for the Pistons last year in 800 minutes that I thought he would have at least gotten a vet min deal from someone as a defensive, rebounding big.

The Jabari Bird situation is awfully sad.

[closg00]

Elton Brand 76ers GM? Didn't see that coming

[payitforward]

:o Elton Brand 76ers GM? Didn't see that coming

I just read that Brand has been involved w/ the team since he played for them in '15-16. He was GM of their G League team last year.

Sixers ownership was smart enough to hire Hinkie & dumb enough to hire Colangelo. Makes it kinda hard to know how this'll work out, huh?

Man, the Colangelo regime was costly to that franchise! Just the trade of the #3 pick & another high pick in order to nab Fultz. Of course, it started earlier when Hinkie did not want to take Okafor, & ownership insisted.

###

It's interesting to look back at the 2015 draft. Of the 15 lottery picks, only Towns has established himself as an outstanding NBA player. Myles Turner had a good year 2 then slipped back last year. & 3 other guys are still living on "potential" (Porzingis, Booker & Oubre).

Of the other 10 lottery picks, 6 of them (Russell, Okafor, Hezonja, Mudiay, Johnson, & Payne) either are already busts or look to be on the edge of busting, while 4 (Winslow, Kaminsky, Lyles, & Cauley-Stein) are struggling to establish themselves as -- at best -- journeymen.

Meanwhile Terry Rozier (#16), Jerian Grant (#19), Delon Wright (#20), Tyus Jones (#24), Larry Nance (#27), Kevon Looney (#30), Cedi Osman (#31), Montrezl Harrell (#32), Richaun Holmes (#37) & Josh Richardson (#40) have all established themselves as one or another kind of good player in the NBA. That's 10 guys, & you might add Portis (#22) & Anderson (#21) to the list.

[I_Like_Dirt]

The 2015 draft is interesting as drafts go, but isn't actually so out of place if you look back over the past 5 or 6 years. I wouldn't say Porzingis is living on potential, though. He's a really good player. The only issue with him is if he can recover from injury. And while I think Booker tends to get overrated a bit, he's better than all the other picks you listed. Oubre isn't better than all those other picks, but he's roughly in the middle of that group, which isn't actually an insult. And while Russell hasn't lived up to the hype, he's also proven that he belongs in the NBA, it's just up in the air how he belongs.

Overall, though, the trend of seeing roughly as many good players taken outside of the lottery as there are taken inside the lottery is really starting to take hold. It's an interesting dynamic. Basically, the lottery is usually where the younger college players who have been highly ranked by scouts for some time tend to go. The best ones go at the top of the draft, so you have the successful guys centered there. You still will have some successes later, but once you move from the top of the draft, it's guys that scouts have overlooked for various reasons that tend to break out more often than not. It generally isn't guys scouts loved but somehow didn't produce up to expectations in college that are breaking out. It's guys scouts overlooked to varying degrees from the start. It's almost always some combination of school with less exposure and/or junior/senior (Jimmy Butler, Chandler Parsons, Delon Wright, Draymond, etc.), or an international big (Jokic, Nurkic, etc.). There are some exceptions, like Tyus Jones, who I was always surprised he fell through the cracks, but he was also a player that scouts didn't like despite the fact that he always managed to produce and played at Duke. Normally teams aren't getting good value when they pick the hyped young, athletic guys outside of the top 7 or so. It happens, but not very often. When Skal Labissiere slips, it doesn't mean he's a bad player or horrible person, but it does mean he isn't nearly the sure bet he might have actually been back in the 80s.

[Eli Babak]

Jimmy Butler has requested a trade. According to Woj he'd like to be traded to Nets, Clippers and Knicks. A year ago things looked great for Twolves but then they gave that stupid max extension to Wiggins and Thibs just isn't a good coach (and GM ) after all. Damn.

[DCZards]

It's interesting to look back at the 2015 draft. Of the 15 lottery picks, only Towns has established himself as an outstanding NBA player. Myles Turner had a good year 2 then slipped back last year. & 3 other guys are still living on "potential" (Porzingis, Booker & Oubre).

I'd have to disagree with you on Porzingis and Booker, PIF. I think both have shown a lot more than just "potential." They're very good players.

The problem for Porzingis and Booker, imo, is that they've been thrown into situations where they have been asked to be THE guy. That is especially true of Booker who is only 21. Turner, on the other hand, and Towns to some degree, are on teams where they've been surrounded by better players, which has taken a lot of the pressure off of them to be the go-to guy night in and night out.

Of course, the other problem for Porzingis has been staying healthy.

[Ruzious]

It's interesting to look back at the 2015 draft. Of the 15 lottery picks, only Towns has established himself as an outstanding NBA player. Myles Turner had a good year 2 then slipped back last year. & 3 other guys are still living on "potential" (Porzingis, Booker & Oubre).

I'd have to disagree with you on Porzingis and Booker, PIF. I think both have shown a lot more than just "potential." They're very good players.

The problem for Porzingis and Booker, imo, is that they've been thrown into situations where they have been asked to be THE guy. That is especially true of Booker who is only 21. Turner, on the other hand, and Towns to some degree, are on teams where they've been surrounded by better players, which has taken a lot of the pressure off of them to be the go-to guy night in and night out.

Of course, the other problem for Porzingis has been staying healthy.

Yeah, I think there are a lot of NBA teams that would give a fortune for Porz and quite a lot for Booker. Oubre doesn't belong in the same sentence as Porz unless the sentence says that... yup... Oubre doesn't belong in the same sentence as Porz.

[Ruzious]

Jimmy Butler has requested a trade. According to Woj he'd like to be traded to Nets, Clippers and Knicks. A year ago things looked great for Twolves but then they gave that stupid max extension to Wiggins and Thibs just isn't a good coach (and GM ) after all. Damn.

Hmmm, Butler cares about winning... but the 3 teams he chooses are the NETS, Clips, and Knicks. Yeah right. Getting paid is now his first, second, and third priority.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Hmmm, Butler cares about winning... but the 3 teams he chooses are the NETS, Clips, and Knicks. Yeah right. Getting paid is now his first, second, and third priority.

He's going to get paid either way. He clearly wants to play with a bunch of vets and players he gets along with better - hence all the Kyrie Irving rumors. Those are the 3 teams that were rumored destination for him and Irving to pair up on. Heck, the Clippers are supposed to be Kawhi Leonard's preferred landing spot, too. Given how players tend to plan this stuff since the Heatles, it wouldn't shock me that this is the idea he's got in mind. A lot can change, though. I don't really think he'd have an issue playing with Wall and Beal specifically, for example. But he's going to want some veteran "stars" around him.

[Ruzious]

Hmmm, Butler cares about winning... but the 3 teams he chooses are the NETS, Clips, and Knicks. Yeah right. Getting paid is now his first, second, and third priority.

He's going to get paid either way. He clearly wants to play with a bunch of vets and players he gets along with better - hence all the Kyrie Irving rumors. Those are the 3 teams that were rumored destination for him and Irving to pair up on. Heck, the Clippers are supposed to be Kawhi Leonard's preferred landing spot, too. Given how players tend to plan this stuff since the Heatles, it wouldn't shock me that this is the idea he's got in mind. A lot can change, though. I don't really think he'd have an issue playing with Wall and Beal specifically, for example. But he's going to want some veteran "stars" around him.

He's already on a team with more talent than the Nets will probably ever have, and it doesn't make much sense for him to throw away this coming season to play for a terrible team at this point of his career - if he's interested in winning. Minny was 47-35 last season - with one of the legit young star bigs in the game. This is where he should want to be, imo.

[payitforward]

It's interesting to look back at the 2015 draft. Of the 15 lottery picks, only Towns has established himself as an outstanding NBA player. Myles Turner had a good year 2 then slipped back last year. & 3 other guys are still living on "potential" (Porzingis, Booker & Oubre).

I'd have to disagree with you on Porzingis and Booker, PIF. I think both have shown a lot more than just "potential." They're very good players.

The problem for Porzingis and Booker, imo, is that they've been thrown into situations where they have been asked to be THE guy. That is especially true of Booker who is only 21. Turner, on the other hand, and Towns to some degree, are on teams where they've been surrounded by better players, which has taken a lot of the pressure off of them to be the go-to guy night in and night out.

Of course, the other problem for Porzingis has been staying healthy.

The problems you mention are certainly there. & you bet they are both very good players -- if by that you mean that they are both very *talented* players.

But the actual numbers they have actually put up is what puts them into the world of potential as opposed to actual achievement. To take Booker for example -- I assume people would think that what makes him "very good" is his scoring. He scores lots of points. So, lets first look at everything else & then come back to scoring.

If you look at rebounds, blocks, steals, fouls, & assists Booker last year was overall exactly at average for an NBA wing. Unfortunately, he turned the ball over literally twice as often as an average NBA wing. So on the sum of this stuff he was behind the numbers of an average wing.

Of course, you would expect a high-usage guy to turn the ball over more than an average usage guy. & you'd expect him to make it up on the other side -- by being a very high efficiency score & volume scorer too. Like Brad -- who also turns it over at an above average rate. But, Brad only turns the ball over a little bit more than average on his career -- he doesn't turn the ball over twice as often as average!

Doing that puts high demands on his scoring to make up for the problem. &, you bet, the volume is there. Per 40 minutes last season, he scored almost 4 more points than Brad Beal. Thing is, he did it at a lower efficiency than Brad. Oh, & this was an off year for Brad. If you compare Booker last year (by far his best year so far) w/ Brad in 2016-17... it isn't even close.

In fact, Booker was only a tiny bit better than average scorer for a wing. Why? B/c he shot 46% on 2-point attempts (of which he took about 15 every 40 minutes).

Combine high usage, basically average results of the usage, & below average productivity on everything else & you get a guy whose actual output was overall below average.

Now, if your response is to say (as you do) that's because Booker is "only 21" yet has been thrown into (a) situation where he's "been asked to be THE guy," -- I agree entirely!

& why has that happened? Because he is a very talented player. He has a lot of potential!

As soon as he makes that potential actual he'll stop being a player who's "still living on potential." I think he may well do that, btw. But... there are guys who don't, right? We all know that.

As to Towns, I think your memory has failed you here, Zards! Minny was a horrible team when he arrived. They were coming off a 16-win season. They had virtually no good players at all! Towns played 2627 minutes as a rookie. Only 2 other Centers played as many as he did (Horford & Drummond). IOW, he was thrown into the fire with no support & asked to be the man. Which he was. No problem.

I'm not criticizing Devin Booker! He's incredibly talented; he has a lot of potential.

[LyricalRico]

Hmmm, Butler cares about winning... but the 3 teams he chooses are the NETS, Clips, and Knicks. Yeah right. Getting paid is now his first, second, and third priority.

He's going to get paid either way. He clearly wants to play with a bunch of vets and players he gets along with better - hence all the Kyrie Irving rumors. Those are the 3 teams that were rumored destination for him and Irving to pair up on. Heck, the Clippers are supposed to be Kawhi Leonard's preferred landing spot, too. Given how players tend to plan this stuff since the Heatles, it wouldn't shock me that this is the idea he's got in mind. A lot can change, though. I don't really think he'd have an issue playing with Wall and Beal specifically, for example. But he's going to want some veteran "stars" around him.

He's already on a team with more talent than the Nets will probably ever have, and it doesn't make much sense for him to throw away this coming season to play for a terrible team at this point of his career - if he's interested in winning. Minny was 47-35 last season - with one of the legit young star bigs in the game. This is where he should want to be, imo.

I guess it could also be the classic "small market vs. big market"? Or maybe he just hates playing for Thibbs? What's odd to me is the timing. Usually this happens early in the offseason or at the trade deadline, so having this come out right before training camp is interesting.

[Shoe]

Jimmy Butler has requested a trade. According to Woj he'd like to be traded to Nets, Clippers and Knicks. A year ago things looked great for Twolves but then they gave that stupid max extension to Wiggins and Thibs just isn't a good coach (and GM ) after all. Damn.

Hmmm, Butler cares about winning... but the 3 teams he chooses are the NETS, Clips, and Knicks. Yeah right. Getting paid is now his first, second, and third priority.

Those teams can throw max contracts at him and his friend, Kyrie Irving. Nets and Clippers might also be able to hand out another one too, while the Knicks have Porzingis already.

[I_Like_Dirt]

He's already on a team with more talent than the Nets will probably ever have, and it doesn't make much sense for him to throw away this coming season to play for a terrible team at this point of his career - if he's interested in winning. Minny was 47-35 last season - with one of the legit young star bigs in the game. This is where he should want to be, imo.

I know he downplayed the Towns thing, but really, most people, and even most NBA players, don't really ever get a chance to pick where they want to Work. Butler is one of the select few who can do that. And a lot goes into a decision like that.

As Minny, they're not a bad option overall. They're a pretty good team and have some pretty good players. Even Wiggins, as maligned as he is, isn't actually awful and is a guy who really isn't so far off of being a very good player. Towns is a legit youg star big, as you say, though where that leads is anybody's guess. Minnesota is a quality city and they would absolutely max him if given the chance.

The catch is other teams would max him, too. And other teams offer cities Butler might prefer to live in. It isn't like he's picking small markets as options here. And more to that, picking who you work with can be huge. It's a small league, overall. Guys know each other. The Warriors players reportedly nixed the idea of Dwight Howard not because he was a bad player, but because they didn't feel they would mesh, and they were okay with Cousins, some of them having a history with him and understanding what he did and didn't bring, regardless of his injury.

With Butler, yes, the Nets were terrible last season and will be terrible this season, but they wouldn't actually be terrible with Jimmy Butler on their team. It all depends on what they give up, but they won 28 games last season and with Jimmy Butler, they're likely fighting for the 8th seed in the east. The east isn't that good. And Minnesota was fighting for the 8th seed last season, too, and barely made it, and now face even more competition with Lebron joining the Lakers. A bigger market and not outrageously different chances at the playoffs? Rumors he wants to join with Kyrie Irving or another star? The factors you mention aren't nearly as set in stone as you suggest. Frankly, I feel the biggest mistake the Wolves made was trading for Butler in the first place last season. I'm not a big believer in either Lavine or Dunn at this point, but they both belong in the NBA. But more to the point, imagine Towns and Markannen up front? Wiggins, for all his flaws, isn't an awful option as a hinge player and I don't think it's unrealistic to believe he'd hit a Demar Derozan level of play overall. Instead, they cashed stuff in for a player who doesn't really fit their timeline and became an unrestricted free agent within 2 seasons. Thibs is killing their franchise slowly but surely.

[Ruzious]

He's already on a team with more talent than the Nets will probably ever have, and it doesn't make much sense for him to throw away this coming season to play for a terrible team at this point of his career - if he's interested in winning. Minny was 47-35 last season - with one of the legit young star bigs in the game. This is where he should want to be, imo.

I know he downplayed the Towns thing, but really, most people, and even most NBA players, don't really ever get a chance to pick where they want to Work. Butler is one of the select few who can do that. And a lot goes into a decision like that.

As Minny, they're not a bad option overall. They're a pretty good team and have some pretty good players. Even Wiggins, as maligned as he is, isn't actually awful and is a guy who really isn't so far off of being a very good player. Towns is a legit youg star big, as you say, though where that leads is anybody's guess. Minnesota is a quality city and they would absolutely max him if given the chance.

The catch is other teams would max him, too. And other teams offer cities Butler might prefer to live in. It isn't like he's picking small markets as options here. And more to that, picking who you work with can be huge. It's a small league, overall. Guys know each other. The Warriors players reportedly nixed the idea of Dwight Howard not because he was a bad player, but because they didn't feel they would mesh, and they were okay with Cousins, some of them having a history with him and understanding what he did and didn't bring, regardless of his injury.

With Butler, yes, the Nets were terrible last season and will be terrible this season, but they wouldn't actually be terrible with Jimmy Butler on their team. It all depends on what they give up, but they won 28 games last season and with Jimmy Butler, they're likely fighting for the 8th seed in the east. The east isn't that good. And Minnesota was fighting for the 8th seed last season, too, and barely made it, and now face even more competition with Lebron joining the Lakers. A bigger market and not outrageously different chances at the playoffs? Rumors he wants to join with Kyrie Irving or another star? The factors you mention aren't nearly as set in stone as you suggest. Frankly, I feel the biggest mistake the Wolves made was trading for Butler in the first place last season. I'm not a big believer in either Lavine or Dunn at this point, but they both belong in the NBA. But more to the point, imagine Towns and Markannen up front? Wiggins, for all his flaws, isn't an awful option as a hinge player and I don't think it's unrealistic to believe he'd hit a Demar Derozan level of play overall. Instead, they cashed stuff in for a player who doesn't really fit their timeline and became an unrestricted free agent within 2 seasons. Thibs is killing their franchise slowly but surely.

Thibs seems to be the scapegoat, but in reality wasn't it Thibs that developed Butler in his image - with Butler working harder than everyone else and developing his mental and physical toughness. I think there's some irony there.

[zero2hero]

I don't think the problem is between Thibs and Butler at all. I think it's with his teammates. Weren't there grumblings that he felt his "star" teammates (Towns/Wiggins) weren't taking winning seriously? Same sentiments he shared when he was in Chicago.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I don't know about scapegoat. Thibs has his flaws. So does Towns. So does that Wolves roster. So does Butler himself. Butler clashing with Thibodeau isn't something new. That's been going on since Chicago. Unlike a lot of the other Bulls, though, Butler isn't broken down and still has other options. These guys are only going back to Thibodeau when they have no other options.

As for Butler himself, I think it's a mistake to overcredit Thibodeau for his development as a player. Yeah, Thibs deserves some credit, but most of that goes to Butler. Likewise, I don't really think Thibs is to blame for Butler being ornery and looking to do what he wants to do. That's on Butler, too. Butler and Thibs have been good for each other in many ways, but in others they have also been bad for each other. Thibs' singular focus on dealing with players he's worked with before and preference for veterans over taking time and developing players led him to move Markkanen for Butler. He dumped Rubio and handed the job over to a combination of Teague, Rose and Crawford. He's hurting his teams' long term outlook and invited conflict that didn't have to be there. Likewise, there are any number of reasons why Butler might be better off not playing for Thibs. It's not like he was worse in Chicago after Thibs left - in the last 4 seasons, the 2 where Butler has played the most games were the 2 seasons where he wasn't playing for Thibs.