Political Roundtable Part XXII

[doclinkin]

But Doclinkin and others seem to think I'm the egg and you guys are the chicken. Which is also dishonest. You guys were partisan hacks long before i entered the discussion here.

Neh. Just said the quality of debate in this thread devolved. Started back in the George W Bush days and has gotten ever more protosimian since. I credit biased news organizations and the digital clan effect where people take their news from Facebook and only share opinions with people they agree with, or else go all YOuTube-comments-thread level of loopy. And blame and attack and fail to listen or debate.

There are rational right thinkers on all sides of the debate. What I said in the insults thread was:

Yeah, that said, Kev and fishercob have made it clear they left this site in part over a general downturn in the quality of debate (hands spamming the boards) and partisan disagreements in the politics thread that triggered distaste and soured their opinion of posters they otherwise respected in other contexts. The over the top attacks and the general schism in our country and downturn in civility and lack of accurate sourcing and you know-- trolling --drove away a few of our better and smarter posters for whom this political climate made it less acceptable to take lightheartedly disagreements between otherwise right-thinking adults. The political thread turned away from an honest earnest thoughtful debate into more bomb throwing and whatnot. Shrug.

you got the liberals in the politics thread to thank for that. I'm on solid ground with analytics and the science with almost everything i post in that thread. And when i'm off or wrong, its not by much. Their version of "truth" is so far out of whack, that the actual truth seems "whack."

The liberals have been drinking their own far fetched koolaid for decades. They now believe their own press releases. they are the ones that have divided the country. They want the same things I want. Equal and fair wealth distribution. But they dont know how to get it. They dont even know where the real wealth is hidden and espeically dont know how it is hidden. So instead they want their neighbors trans am or boat money. Cuz they can see tranny and the boat. Too effin lazy to go find the real money. And that's why i post in that thread.

Disagree wholeheartedly. On both accounts. Motivation of liberals and when the politics thread changed and what has polarized our country. But I mostly don't post in that thread because people tend to be doing exactly that bull ^^^^ lobbing monkey dung instead of earnestly trying to understand each others perspective and trying to find middle ground or solutions. Frankly as much as I support the helloutta you and held my own protest for them assassinating your online persona, I'd have more to say to you in this thread than on there. There you are a billion percent part of the problem. Clowning and trolling and inciting disagreement for your own jollies. It's an act, I suspect you're not this much of an @ss in real life. I get the feeling we'd get along fine, though I'm a born socialist who plays wargames and studies strategy/tactics, and you may have reallife fought your way to a im-a get-mine capitalist mindset from whatever fictionalized beginning you got.

But in that thread its tougher to let things linger, ****, its real life consequences for people having dangerously disparate political opinions. Somebody profits by the schism in our country and it likely isn't most of us message board mopes.

oh and also:

Because that thread used to be calm and thoughtful reasonable adults. And now is often unreadable ME vs YOUism. Over there we ought to be all americans who disagree on the nuances of what freedom costs and how that bill is divvied up.

Whereupon I thence called you a penile seepage or whatnot since that is the function and purpose of the insults thread. Accurate or no. Over there bombthrowing and snotblowing is perfectly fine. On here its pointless signal noise. Nobody learns nuttn from it.

[montestewart]

Does anyone else think SD20 might actually be Paul Gosar?

Maybe Pauly Shore? Couldn't find anyone who would admit to being a sibling, although one offered a telling, "Oh, God, don't get him started on his yacht..."

[doclinkin]

Now as a lefty kid who grew up on "question authority" buttons and protest marches and watched the Watergate hearings in my hippie co-op daycare and then watched the Hippies become Yuppies in the 'get yours' 80's and protest folk songs become nihilist punk rock --

--then the rise of hiphop first as black CNN then gangster rap becoming 'keeping it real' where fake gangsters try to attain gang status and an artform that disseminated information that wasn't being heard otherwise instead devolved into incoherent mumbling, in a country where a Right wing court was packed and suddenly corporations have more rights than citizens and people get upset and scared at the radical concept that black lives matter.... I dunno.

I'd have more words probably in the poetry thread trying to tease it all out.

But. Can we find points of agreement? Yes. Why not.

Of course there is an international conspiracy of moneyed interests. Duh. There are multiple competing ICOMI's if I can coin an acronym. Some are more successful than others at steering the future. Some have more some have less guiding principles scruples or ethics, or ethnicity if you give a **** about that sort of thing. Personally I doubt my ability to influence or affect money on that scale. But Im all for democracy as a concept where the little guy banding together behind an idea can even in a small way steer policy that affects the powerful. Why I also believe in unions even though they of course are also corrupt at times.

Of course there is a Deep State. Stupid to me that things have gotten so jiu jistu twisted that you have Lefty sorts defending the guilds of assassins and covert influence. But spycraft is necessary ugly work and should transcend cable news level of herky jerk news cycle driven belief systems. It should identify the aims of statecraft and attempt to further our best interests in the world. Stateside it should look at dangerous and destabilizing criminality within our borders and blunt or neuter it and lock up bad actors.

Of course the Intelligence community and the Fourth Estate are biased against Trump. He has earned it by attacking them. Chosen powerful enemies. This is what he does. Why you like him. He p1sses people off. Right or wrong.

I don't know why Hillary comes up again and again except to deflect inquiry to other failings. But as a lefty, yeah I don't know anyone who really liked her, even if she was the most qualified and experienced candidate to ever run for that office (having shaped Bills policies, served in the Senate, served as Sec State and been in public policy all her life). Yes she was in the pocket of Wall Street. And was a hawk when it came to middle east policy and the influence of Russia. Between Putin and Hillary we would be in a reactivated cold war right now. There might be more strikes and military action. I disliked her as a candidate, even while I respected that --as hated as she is-- she must have been doing something right, since she kept getting elected and gaining progressively more responsibility even with grudging respect from her peers across the aisle. I liked her better after reading her 'secret' emails. Brassy, tough, with heart, and still keeping an eye on the underserved. I still thought she was an awful candidate since her public charisma is negative.

Yes an increased inheritance tax would mean legacy wealth is not simply sitting untouched and swelling but pours back into public policy in potentially positive ways.

As for Trump. Um. Yeah. I agree he shakes things up.

I have my opinion about all of the above, but living in NYC in the 80's I have hated Trump long before he had a reality show or political ambitions. He has had racist housing policies. Anyone who has ever been in business with him has gotten ripped off. He looks for low bids and then fails to pay and says "well you are getting benefit from my name" and if you push he says "sue me" or he will threaten the little guy with lawsuits if they speak out about it.

He is no self-made millionaire or billionaire, he has commonly had more debt than income, or paper value, or leastways that has been the scuttlebutt in NYC Real Estate common wisdom, but and has been bailed out of six bankruptcies by his family and by borrowing more money from ever shadier sources. Bluster and debt and losing other peoples money has been how he made his name. Then he got a reality show.

I've known maintenance folk who work in his buildings and who also know the shady side of shady (if you're in Chicago real estate you understand) who say his highest priced properties were largely empty zombie real estate until Russians with bodyguards started buying apartments. And often leaving them empty. IN NYC in the 90s there were only two sources of cash in real estate after the Japanese stopped investing overseas: China and the Russian mafia. Its common chatter. Ask an FBI field agent in NYC who the bad actors were once the italian mafia got fat and toothless.

But yeah in NYC every time his name was attached to something it would have a glam surface and flashy opening -- and a bad ending with lawsuits and the little guy getting snuffed. Interview anyone from a company catering his event, to the guy delivering marble veneers for his lobby who had to himself go out of business behind unpaid invoices followed by lawsuits. He's shady as they come and a total conman. His deal is NDAs for everyone then lawsuits when you complain after he inevitably rips you off. That's how he approaches every deal: big promises, no follow thru, and in every deal somebody is ripping somebody off.

As for his governance. Eh, too much to go into. Except to say that to me the way to repatriate wealth as far as Im concerned is not to give tax cuts to the richest earners and owners. But instead to foster small business growth. Tax breaks not for corporations but for mom and pop businesses. Not for capital gains. But for businesses involved in building infrastructure, sustainable energy. Not corporate agribusiness. But the working dude. The America of MAGA was not so great for people of color or any difference (gay, foreign, etc) but if you look at the countries greatest explosion of wealth and the middle class, following WW2 look at the tax code. Millionaires were taxed at a dollar for dollar rate. To whom much is given much is expected. And we used it to build a transportation system and NASA and the internet and the best University system in the world etc etc etc. Investing in the future. Even sci fi of that time was hopeful, believing science could cure the world.

And with a family that has folks from Cambodia and the Carribean and European immigrants fleeing Hitler, it seems to me stupid to slam the door on immigration. Instead we have often renewed ourselves and built our country with the people who have the brass nuts to look at where they were born and want better for themselves and their family. The Drumpf family. Trump knew first gen immigrants in his own family. Even Ivana and Melania came over here to take their hoeing to a more lucrative market. Anyway. Much to argue about but no point. Unless we are trying to find middle ground or solutions.

[dckingsfan]

dckingsfan, you are like a change person? you were wise man on forum before.may i ask why change?

fiscal conservative and neutral to meme poster. I like meme just wonder why change.

I haven't changed. I am still a fiscal conservative - and Trump is no fiscal conservative.

Meme's are used for visceral emotional response - not a rational responses. Those that are attacking the Mueller investigation have changed tactics from logic to visceral attacks. One only need look at the indictments and convictions to understand that.

Hence, both logic - why the Mueller investigation should continue (indictments, convictions) and emotional (Mueller vs. Trump).

And even if you can hold your nose at Trump (doclink nailed that), you shouldn't want the investigation to stop - not if you want to clean up the swamp. BTW, over 90% of Independents want the investigation to continue - so there is that...

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[GhostofChenier]

dckingsfan, you are like a change person? you were wise man on forum before.may i ask why change?

fiscal conservative and neutral to meme poster. I like meme just wonder why change.

I haven't changed. I am still a fiscal conservative - and Trump is no fiscal conservative.

Meme's are used for visceral emotional response - not a rational responses. Those that are attacking the Mueller investigation have changed tactics from logic to visceral attacks. One only need look at the indictments and convictions to understand that.

Hence, both logic - why the Mueller investigation should continue (indictments, convictions) and emotional (Mueller vs. Trump).

And even if you can hold your nose at Trump (doclink nailed that), you shouldn't want the investigation to stop - not if you want to clean up the swamp. BTW, over 90% of Independents want the investigation to continue - so there is that...

I mean you had voice I’d reason. Now you are like all else. Disappointing I like u understand all Sid. Now you are one sid.

America has beat eco okay and business in world. This is Lukashenko dividend conquer tactic. There is one person who disagree with all here. You need to invites more. Or what is point to talk with mirror

[penbeast0]

Agree if the only point is to have arguments/discussions. Trouble is that pretty much all intelligent people find Trump disturbing in some way, from Libertarian leaning fiscal conservatives to Socialist leaning radical redistribute the wealth types.

On the other hand, if you can move from agreement to action, then the agreement is good. Even if that action is only working out how your vote can have the most positive effect.

[montestewart]

dckingsfan, you are like a change person? you were wise man on forum before.may i ask why change?

fiscal conservative and neutral to meme poster. I like meme just wonder why change.

I haven't changed. I am still a fiscal conservative - and Trump is no fiscal conservative.

Meme's are used for visceral emotional response - not a rational responses. Those that are attacking the Mueller investigation have changed tactics from logic to visceral attacks. One only need look at the indictments and convictions to understand that.

Hence, both logic - why the Mueller investigation should continue (indictments, convictions) and emotional (Mueller vs. Trump).

And even if you can hold your nose at Trump (doclink nailed that), you shouldn't want the investigation to stop - not if you want to clean up the swamp. BTW, over 90% of Independents want the investigation to continue - so there is that...

I mean you had voice I’d reason. Now you are like all else. Disappointing I like u understand all Sid. Now you are one sid.

America has beat eco okay and business in world. This is Lukashenko dividend conquer tactic. There is one person who disagree with all here. You need to invites more. Or what is point to talk with mirror

I've been watching DCK since he arrived. Always throwing everyone off the scent. Social liberal, fiscal conservative, come on DCK, pick a lane!

Meanwhile, I'm still here GoC. You can always count on me as a level-headed, sure-footed, underhanded voice of reason. And speaking of consistency, I haven't trusted Trump since the late 70s. No flip flopping here.

[dckingsfan]

I haven't changed. I am still a fiscal conservative - and Trump is no fiscal conservative.

Meme's are used for visceral emotional response - not a rational responses. Those that are attacking the Mueller investigation have changed tactics from logic to visceral attacks. One only need look at the indictments and convictions to understand that.

Hence, both logic - why the Mueller investigation should continue (indictments, convictions) and emotional (Mueller vs. Trump).

And even if you can hold your nose at Trump (doclink nailed that), you shouldn't want the investigation to stop - not if you want to clean up the swamp. BTW, over 90% of Independents want the investigation to continue - so there is that...

I mean you had voice I’d reason. Now you are like all else. Disappointing I like u understand all Sid. Now you are one sid.

America has beat eco okay and business in world. This is Lukashenko dividend conquer tactic. There is one person who disagree with all here. You need to invites more. Or what is point to talk with mirror

I've been watching DCK since he arrived. Always throwing everyone off the scent. Social liberal, fiscal conservative, come on DCK, pick a lane!

Meanwhile, I'm still here GoC. You can always count on me as a level-headed, sure-footed, underhanded voice of reason. And speaking of consistency, I haven't trusted Trump since the late 70s. No flip flopping here.

A true social liberal is also a fiscal conservative. Sustainable government is what all social liberals want in the end after due consideration

[closg00]

i'm a former nike loyalist. I even think that Nike's shoes are the best by a wide margin for basketball. I will never buy another Nike product again.

Trump thought Nike would be destroyed, how how ya like Nike now?

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

i'm a former nike loyalist. I even think that Nike's shoes are the best by a wide margin for basketball. I will never buy another Nike product again.

Trump thought Nike would be destroyed, how how ya like Nike now?

Read on Twitter

MAGA?

[GhostofChenier]

We all laugh st this yes!! Hahaha

[stilldropin20]

Now as a lefty kid who grew up on "question authority" buttons and protest marches and watched the Watergate hearings in my hippie co-op daycare and then watched the Hippies become Yuppies in the 'get yours' 80's and folk song protexts become nihilist punk rock --

--then the rise of hiphop first as black CNN then gangster rap becoming 'keeping it real' where fake gangsters try to attain gang status and an artform that disseminated information that wasn't being heard otherwise instead devolved into incoherent mumbling, in a country where a Right wing court was packed and suddenly corporations have more rights than citizens and people get upset and scared at the radical concept that black lives matter.... I dunno.

I'd have more words probably in the poetry thread trying to tease it all out.

But. Can we find points of agreement? Yes. Why not.

Of course there is an international conspiracy of moneyed interests. Duh. There are multiple competing ICOMI's if I can coin an acronym. Some are more successful than others at steering the future. Some have more some have less guiding principles scruples or ethics, or ethnicity if you give a **** about that sort of thing. Personally I doubt my ability to influence or affect money on that scale. But Im all for democracy as a concept where the little guy banding together behind an idea can even in a small way steer policy that affects the powerful. Why I also believe in unions even though they of course are also corrupt at times.

Of course there is a Deep State. Stupid to me that things have gotten so jiu jistu twisted that you have Lefty sorts defending the guilds of assassins and covert influence. But spycraft is necessary ugly work and should transcend cable news level of herky jerk news cycle driven belief systems. It should identify the aims of statecraft and attempt to further our best interests in the world. Stateside it should look at dangerous and destabilizing criminality within our borders and blunt or neuter it and lock up bad actors.

Of course the Intelligence community and the Fourth Estate are biased against Trump. He has earned it by attacking them. Chosen powerful enemies. This is what he does. Why you like him. He p1sses people off. Right or wrong.

I don't know why Hillary comes up again and again except to deflect inquiry to other failings. But as a lefty, yeah even if she was the most qualified and experienced candidate to ever run for that office (having shaped Bills policies, served in the Senate, served as Sec State and been in public policy all her life) yes she was in the pocket of Wall Street. And was a hawk when it came to middle east policy and the influence of Russia. Between Putin and Hillary we would be in a reactivated cold war right now. I disliked her as a candidate even while I respected that as hated as she is she must have been doing something right since she kept getting eelected and gaining progressively more responsibility even with grudging respect from her peers across the aisle. I liked her better after reading her 'secret' emails. Brassy, tough, with heart, and still keeping an eye on the underserved. I still thought she was an awful candidate since her public charisma is negative.

Yes an increased inheritance tax would mean legacy wealth is not simply sitting untouched and swelling but pours back into public policy in potentially positive ways.

As for Trump. Um. Yeah. I agree he shakes things up.

I have my opinion about all of the above, but living in NYC in the 80's I have hated Trump long before he had a reality show or political ambitions. He has had racist housing policies. Anyone who has ever been in business with him has gotten ripped off. He looks for low bids and then fails to pay and says "well you are getting benefit from my name" and if you push he says "sue me" or he will threaten the little guy with lawsuits if they speak out about it.

He is no self-made millionaire or billionaire, he has commonly had more debt than income, or paper value, or leastways that has been the scuttlebutt in NYC Real Estate common wisdom, but and has been bailed out of six bankruptcies by his family and by borrowing more money from ever shadier sources. Bluster and debt and losing other peoples money has been how he made his name. Then he got a reality show.

I've known maintenance folk who work in his buildings and who also know the shady side of shady (if you're in Chicago real estate you understand) who say his highest priced properties were largely empty zombie real estate until Russians with bodyguards started buying apartments. And often leaving them empty. IN NYC in the 90s there were only two sources of cash in real estate after the Japanese stopped investing overseas: China and the Russian mafia. Its common chatter. Ask an FBI field agent in NYC who the bad actors were once the italian mafia got fat and toothless.

But yeah in NYC every time his name was attached to something it would have a glam surface and flashy opening -- and a bad ending with lawsuits and the little guy getting snuffed. Interview anyone from a company catering his event, to the guy delivering marble veneers for his lobby who had to himself go out of business behind unpaid invoices followed by lawsuits. He's shady as they come and a total conman. His deal is NDAs for everyone then lawsuits when you complain after he inevitably rips you off. That's how he approaches every deal: big promises, no follow thru, and in every deal somebody is ripping somebody off.

As for his governance. Eh, too much to go into. Except to say that to me the way to repatriate wealth as far as Im concerned is not to give tax cuts to the richest earners and owners. But instead to foster small business growth. Tax breaks not for corporations but for mom and pop businesses. Not for capital gains. But for businesses involved in building infrastructure, sustainable energy. Not corporate agribusiness. But the working dude. The America of MAGA was not so great for people of color or any difference (gay, foreign, etc) but if you look at the countries greatest explosion of wealth and the middle class, following WW2 look at the tax code. Millionaires were taxed at a dollar for dollar rate. To whom much is given much is expected. And we used it to build a transportation system and NASA and the internet and the best University system in the world etc etc etc. Investing in the future. Even sci fi of that time was hopeful, believing science could cure the world.

And with a family that has folks from Cambodia and the Carribean and European immigrants fleeing Hitler, it seems to me stupid to slam the door on immigration. Instead we have often renewed ourselves and built our country with the people who have the brass nuts to look at where they were born and want better for themselves and their family. The Drumpf family. Trump knew first gen immigrants in his own family. Even Ivana and Melania came over here to take their hoeing to a more lucrative market. Anyway. Much to argue about but no point. Unless we are trying to find middle ground or solutions.

OMG!! I am so mad!! I just lost my response. it was long! and good...i was very patient with myslef and even edited myself...ugh!!! its phucking good tooo!!!!!!! tons of 80's references! Johnny Lawrence! Daniel Larusso!! FU!!!!!!!!!!!

[pancakes3]

very stable genius.

[montestewart]

Actually, I think that might be the most well-edited post you've ever made STD.

[doclinkin]

OMG!! I am so mad!! I just lost my response. it was long! and good...i was very patient with myslef and even edited myself...ugh!!! its phucking good tooo!!!!!!! tons of 80's references! Johnny Lawrence! Daniel Larusso!! FU!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh. I got 10 minutes into my first response then chucked it to go hang out with my kid and go to this counseling thing. It was gone when I came back. None of this is immortal. Unless it makes it to the HOF thread I guess lol.

[montestewart]

OMG!! I am so mad!! I just lost my response. it was long! and good...i was very patient with myslef and even edited myself...ugh!!! its phucking good tooo!!!!!!! tons of 80's references! Johnny Lawrence! Daniel Larusso!! FU!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh. I got 10 minutes into my first response then chucked it to go hang out with my kid and go to this counseling thing. It was gone when I came back. None of this is immortal. Unless it makes it to the HOF thread I guess lol.

doc and STD chattin' it up. HOF right there.

[GhostofChenier]

OMG!! I am so mad!! I just lost my response. it was long! and good...i was very patient with myslef and even edited myself...ugh!!! its phucking good tooo!!!!!!! tons of 80's references! Johnny Lawrence! Daniel Larusso!! FU!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh. I got 10 minutes into my first response then chucked it to go hang out with my kid and go to this counseling thing. It was gone when I came back. None of this is immortal. Unless it makes it to the HOF thread I guess lol.

Wow this person speak to both tribe here? I sense maybe intelligence.

[closg00]

2nd woman coming forward

Read on Twitter

[doclinkin]

OMG!! I am so mad!! I just lost my response. it was long! and good...i was very patient with myslef and even edited myself...ugh!!! its phucking good tooo!!!!!!! tons of 80's references! Johnny Lawrence! Daniel Larusso!! FU!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh. I got 10 minutes into my first response then chucked it to go hang out with my kid and go to this counseling thing. It was gone when I came back. None of this is immortal. Unless it makes it to the HOF thread I guess lol.

doc and STD chattin' it up. HOF right there.

Nah Stilldroopy is my guy. Barelyawake. Induveca. We all kinda came into here at the same time. What's the quote? "Yeah he's an a-hole, but he's our a-hole, and if we deal with him like an a-hole what business is that of yours?"