#2 Best Defensive Point Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Franco]

Late to the party, but I’m going with Frazier here. I’ll elaborate more tomorrow.

[Samurai]

My vote is for Jerry West. Reasons copied from the first vote:

Based solely on eye test, Jerry West impacted the game with his help defense more than any of the others listed here. A good part of this was his off-the-charts bball IQ. He was like having a second coach on the floor; his knowledge of the game took his defense beyond just a compilation of his physical skills. It was as if he seemed to know what the offense was going to do, and thus his anticipation just seemed to put him in the right position to anticipate a pass or drive. While I acknowledge that there may have been a few that were even better solely as a shutdown man-defender, his help defense at the guard position was GOAT-level. His defense is tremendously underrated by a lot of fans today, most of whom never actually saw him play live. As a result, Jerry West gets my vote. In 1970, Bill Russell stated that as great as West was on offense, he was actually an even better player on defense. He added that he didn't just view West as the best defensive guard in the game, he was the best defensive player. Of course, Russell had just retired so he wasn't necessarily implying that West was better on D than he was - just that he felt West was the best defensive player in the league now that he was no longer playing.

[LA Bird]

No clear candidate for me but of the top 3 guys mentioned here, I would go with Walt Frazier. West has the incredible steal and block stats in his final season but the Lakers pre Wilt were fairly mediocre defensively and West's defensive impact per WOWY appears to be minimal (+7.0 Offense but only -0.2 Defense in raw ppg WOWY from 62~73).

Payton to me is just vastly overrated for the one undeserved DPOY and narrative from the Finals. People talk about Seattle as if they would have been a championship threat if Payton had guarded Jordan before G4.... which is ridiculous since if you rewatch the two quarters which won them games 4 and 5, Payton wasn't even guarding Jordan for the most part. I might have missed a possession here or there since I fast forwarded through the game but by my count
G4 Q2 (Sonics +17 in 21 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 3 possessions. Hawkins (6), Wingate (6), Schrempf (4) all guarded MJ more than Payton.
G5 Q4 (Sonics +9 in 11 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 7 possessions. MJ's only FG in the quarter came against Payton. Hawkins guarded Jordan on 14 possessions. At the final minute mark out of a timeout, it was Hawkins who picked up Jordan from halfcourt while Payton was in the corner guarding Steve Kerr.
Payton is a great defender but nowhere as good as his reputation would suggest.

[Witzig-Okashi]

I will not be able to participate in this project due to school like I'd want to, but I will definitely peek in from time to time! This project sounds amazing

Also, I love the fact that y'all are covering defensive all-time greats like this; they tend to get overlooked so much once we get past the notables! Folks like Nate McMillan, Mookie Blaylock, and Lindsey Hunter (a name I have not seen yet) will get attention for sure

[kendogg]

First of all Jerry West is a SG. He played more SG than PG in his career and he can't be on both lists. I would say Dennis Johnson is a SG as well, though that one is more arguable since it is more of an even split, but honestly more of his prime was at SG. He was kinda chubby during a chunk of his tenure with the Celtics. Also he guarded more SG's even when he played with Ainge.

Now, I already voted but I feel I need to expand my answer since there is confusingly zero support for who I feel should be #1.
I think if you are assessing the best defensive point guard, you value lock down defense the best as they are the first line of defense. Help defense is great and all but there are always 4 help defenders and there is only 1 guy guarding the ball. You also have to consider the strength of the era they played in. I do think there are some extremely good players from the 60's and 70's, but the average level of guard play in those eras is less than the modern era, especially in what I feel is the strongest overall era, the 90's.

Gary Payton is arguably the best lockdown PG defender in the strongest era. He guarded MJ, unquestionably a GOAT candidate and the only GOAT candidate who is a guard IMO, better than anyone. He has the hardware to prove his excellence (1 DPOY, 9x All Defense), but others can boast similar resumes. Walt Frazier is named here and is absolutely a lockdown defender, but he played IMO the weakest NBA era. Jason Kidd and Chris Paul are great all around defenders, but they aren't as dominating of a lockdown defender (Kidd because of less quickness, Paul because less length) than Frazier/Payton. And Payton/Frazier/Paul won the most first team all defense selections of any PG in history (by far). They range from 7-9 and the next best has 4 (Jason Kidd and several others, though Kidd has 5 2nd team selections).

The math seems pretty simple to me.

[Samurai]

First of all Jerry West is a SG. He played more SG than PG in his career and he can't be on both lists. I would say Dennis Johnson is a SG as well, though that one is more arguable since it is more of an even split, but honestly more of his prime was at SG. He was kinda chubby during a chunk of his tenure with the Celtics. Also he guarded more SG's even when he played with Ainge.

There should be an agreement ahead of time as to whether West should be considered a PG or SG. Bball Reference lists him as a PG in 12 of his 14 seasons. If you look at a breakdown of his career, his first few seasons he was paired with Selvy (a SG/SF), so West would have been at the point more often. From 63-65, he was paired with "Fall back baby" Barnett, who was strictly a SG. In 66 he played with Hazzard, who played both PG and SG; I think West may have played more at SG then. Goodrich was there in 67-68 so West would have played the point then. In 69-70, when he played with Erickson (who also played some SF), West would have taken the point. When he played with Egan, a PG, West would play the SG. Goodrich came back in 71 so West played the point from then on until his retirement. So yes, West apparently played many more games at PG, but since he did play at SG as well, there should be a determination as to which position he should be listed at.

[penbeast0]

First of all Jerry West is a SG. He played more SG than PG in his career and he can't be on both lists....

Based on what? Offensively, there's no question he was a PG most of his career. His main backcourt partners were Dick Barnett, an off ball spot up shooter, and Gail Goodrich, who could play point but was primarily also a shooter although a more versatile one. His first couple of years he played with some players who had been PGs before he got there but they shared the responsiblity and West was used more and more as the primary point as his career went on. You can do the year by year with his primary backcourt partner and you will see it more clearly (see spoiler). He led Laker guards in assists every year of his career though in his rookie year, Elgin had more from his forward spot. Later on, West actually led the league in assists. Saying he's a 2 is like saying Magic is a 2, only it's more justifiable for Magic since Magic didn't guard PGs defensively that often and was clearly the two until the Norm Nixon (the PG) for Byron Scott deal. Defensively, it's more iffy, but West was used much of his career to guard the quicker opponent due to his greater athleticism and that was normally the opposing point. So, yeah, he belongs on this list until I see some greater analysis than one poster's unsupported word.

Spoiler:

Here's the year by year breakdown:

61 -- 3 guard rotation with Frank Selvy and Hot Rod Hundley, both combo guards who shared the ballhandling with each other and with West. B-R lists them both as SGs and West as PG and his assist numbers are better.
62-- Selvy and West (Hundley's minutes cut drastically), Coach Shaus continued with the split ballhandling scheme.
63 -- West injured and Dick Barnett moves into the 3 guard rotation, playing slightly more than Selvy. Barnett is more a pure off guard. Per 48, West averages 5.1 ast, Selvy 4.3, Barnett 3.4 (and Elgin Baylor 4.1)
64 -- Selvy's plays less than 20 mpg leaving West as the undisputed PG
65 -- West and Barnett
66 -- Walt Hazzard takes over as West's backcourt partner; Hazzard is more of a PG than SG and West does move to off guard
67 -- Lakers want ball back in West's hands and Hazzard rotates with Gail Goodrich and Archie Clark, all getting similar minutes (Goodrich slightly the most). Their assists/36 numbers: Hazzard 7.1, West 6.0, Goodrich 4.2, Clark 4.2. West plays mainly PG except when teamed with Hazzard.
68 -- Hazzard is allowed to go in the expansion draft, Archie Clark wins the starting spot over Goodrich,when healthy, West is still the primary ballhandler.
69 -- West's main backcourt partners are Keith Erickson, a swingman, and Johnny Egan, an undersized shooter.
West is the primary ballhandler but Egan often brings the ball up when he is in the game to give West more rest.
70 -- The starting SG is Dick Garrett, with Erickson as 6th man. West has 7.5 apg to Garrett's 2.5.
71 -- Goodrich returns to the Lakers. West averages 9.5 apg to Goodrich's 4.8 which would be enough to make him 2nd in the league in apg if he qualified (he was 3rd in total assists but isn't listed in the apg category in B-R.com)
72 -- West again more than doubled up Goodrich in both apg and ap36. His 9.7 apg led the league.
73 -- West had 8.8 apg to 4.4 for Goodrich, Erickson still the first off the bench.
74 -- West misses most of his final season with injury though still leading the team in apg/ap36. When he is out, Jim Price plays with Goodrich in the backcourt and forward Connie Hawkins is the primary playmaker since both guards are used to playing off ball as much as on.

So, West is the undisputed PG in 8 seasons, is the main playmaker but splits duties with other guards in 6, and is the undisputed SG in only 1 season. So, clearly a PG offensively.

[migya]

John Stockton.

He was a hound all his career and his numbers, steals and advanced stats show it. Remember Payton saying in the mid 90s that Stockton was the toughest player to play against.

[migya]

First of all Jerry West is a SG. He played more SG than PG in his career and he can't be on both lists....

Based on what? Offensively, there's no question he was a PG most of his career. His main backcourt partners were Dick Barnett, an off ball spot up shooter, and Gail Goodrich, who could play point but was primarily also a shooter although a more versatile one. His first couple of years he played with some players who had been PGs before he got there but they shared the responsiblity and West was used more and more as the primary point as his career went on. You can do the year by year with his primary backcourt partner and you will see it more clearly. He led Laker guards in assists every year of his career though in his rookie year, Elgin had more from his forward spot. Later on, West actually led the league in assists. Saying he's a 2 is like saying Magic is a 2, only it's more justifiable for Magic since Magic didn't guard PGs defensively that often and was clearly the two until the Norm Nixon (the PG) for Byron Scott deal. Defensively, it's more iffy, but West was used much of his career to guard the quicker opponent due to his greater athleticism and that was normally the opposing point. So, yeah, he belongs on this list until I see some greater analysis than one poster's unsupported word.

After years of thinking West a SG looking at it now he was definitely a PG, as you stated above. That just makes him greater how he played both and both ends.

[penbeast0]

It's my unsupported belief that the SG fallacy comes from his being on the All-Pro teams next to Oscar every year. West was a very good playmaker, Steph Curry level; Oscar was one of the 3 greatest playmakers in NBA history. So, people would assume Oscar was the PG and Jerry the SG but on their own teams, it wasn't true.

[Samurai]

It's my unsupported belief that the SG fallacy comes from his being on the All-Pro teams next to Oscar every year. West was a very good playmaker, Steph Curry level; Oscar was one of the 3 greatest playmakers in NBA history. So, people would assume Oscar was the PG and Jerry the SG but on their own teams, it wasn't true.

To be honest, I hadn't thought of that but it does seem a very valid theory. Oscar and West dominated the All NBA teams so much that their names went together like bacon and eggs. And if that All NBA team were an actual squad, then yes, Oscar would be the PG and West would be the SG. I figured that because West was such a dynamic jump shooter, it was assumed that he must be a shooting guard since he shoots so well, especially if the person making the assumption never watched him play live. My guess is that in 50 years, some fans may assume that Curry was a SG since he shoots so well, or at least shoots better than he passes, particularly if that fan is fairly young and never saw Curry play live.

[Samurai]

I'm tentatively going with Jerry West as my pick here.

Let's first be clear about West's size/length. Do not be fooled by the 6'2" height listing that has largely stuck with him. He's on record indicating it was a without shoes height recorded as a freshman at West Virginia U, and it just stuck. He's on record later [in retirement] saying his without shoes height is closer to 6'4" (I'll see if I can find the audio interview where that is stated later).

I believe this is the interview you are referring to where West states that he is 6 feet, 4 and a half inches without shoes.

Watch on YouTube

Since players are listed today in their shoes, and shoes add about 1.5 inches, my guess is that he would probably be listed at 6-6 today. Which is what Kobe was listed at in his shoes, and given the photos you posted that show West and Kobe about the same height, that would make sense. And remember that West was well over 70 in those photos with Kobe so he likely has shrunken a couple of inches from his playing days.

[Gibson22]

I will not be able to participate in this project due to school like I'd want to, but I will definitely peek in from time to time! This project sounds amazing

Also, I love the fact that y'all are covering defensive all-time greats like this; they tend to get overlooked so much once we get past the notables! Folks like Nate McMillan, Mookie Blaylock, and Lindsey Hunter (a name I have not seen yet) will get attention for sure

Unfortunately at the start we had a thread in which we discussed the candidates and nobody -I think- came up with his name. But at the end of the day, starting with the next thread, we could put those candidates just as tips, and if somebody wants to vote for a player that's not included in the list, that's fine

[HeartBreakKid]

First of all Jerry West is a SG. He played more SG than PG in his career and he can't be on both lists. I would say Dennis Johnson is a SG as well, though that one is more arguable since it is more of an even split, but honestly more of his prime was at SG. He was kinda chubby during a chunk of his tenure with the Celtics. Also he guarded more SG's even when he played with Ainge.

Now, I already voted but I feel I need to expand my answer since there is confusingly zero support for who I feel should be #1.
I think if you are assessing the best defensive point guard, you value lock down defense the best as they are the first line of defense. Help defense is great and all but there are always 4 help defenders and there is only 1 guy guarding the ball. You also have to consider the strength of the era they played in. I do think there are some extremely good players from the 60's and 70's, but the average level of guard play in those eras is less than the modern era, especially in what I feel is the strongest overall era, the 90's.

Gary Payton is arguably the best lockdown PG defender in the strongest era. He guarded MJ, unquestionably a GOAT candidate and the only GOAT candidate who is a guard IMO, better than anyone. He has the hardware to prove his excellence (1 DPOY, 9x All Defense), but others can boast similar resumes. Walt Frazier is named here and is absolutely a lockdown defender, but he played IMO the weakest NBA era. Jason Kidd and Chris Paul are great all around defenders, but they aren't as dominating of a lockdown defender (Kidd because of less quickness, Paul because less length) than Frazier/Payton. And Payton/Frazier/Paul won the most first team all defense selections of any PG in history (by far). They range from 7-9 and the next best has 4 (Jason Kidd and several others, though Kidd has 5 2nd team selections).

The math seems pretty simple to me.

Why do you think Payton played in the strongest era?


Jerry West did not play more SG than PG...that is a total myth.

[kendogg]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate.

Why do I think the 90's are the strongest era? ****, I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted. It includes many of the highest rated playoffs of all time, and was so stacked with talent, that several absolute legends struggled to even get to the finals. Generally there is only a few total powerhouse teams in an era. The 90's were stacked. I've honestly never read a ranking of eras that didn't put the 90's first.

[Gibson22]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate.

Why do I think the 90's are the strongest era? ****, I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted. It includes many of the highest rated playoffs of all time, and was so stacked with talent, that several absolute legends struggled to even get to the finals. Generally there is only a few total powerhouse teams in an era. The 90's were stacked. I've honestly never read a ranking of eras that didn't put the 90's first.

Lol

"Lol" is not a substantive or appropriate response (mostly it's just baiting). Consider this an informal warning. trex

[70sFan]

I'm going to watch many Frazier games and I'll try to judge his defense closely. Right now, he's one of my candidates though Mookie and Cheeks are also good mentions. Jerry West is a grrat option too, based only on eye-test he can be my pick. I wouldn't take CP3 as high, I have him below Stockton and KC Jones.

[PigsOnTheWing]

No clear candidate for me but of the top 3 guys mentioned here, I would go with Walt Frazier. West has the incredible steal and block stats in his final season but the Lakers pre Wilt were fairly mediocre defensively and West's defensive impact per WOWY appears to be minimal (+7.0 Offense but only -0.2 Defense in raw ppg WOWY from 62~73).

Payton to me is just vastly overrated for the one undeserved DPOY and narrative from the Finals. People talk about Seattle as if they would have been a championship threat if Payton had guarded Jordan before G4.... which is ridiculous since if you rewatch the two quarters which won them games 4 and 5, Payton wasn't even guarding Jordan for the most part. I might have missed a possession here or there since I fast forwarded through the game but by my count
G4 Q2 (Sonics +17 in 21 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 3 possessions. Hawkins (6), Wingate (6), Schrempf (4) all guarded MJ more than Payton.
G5 Q4 (Sonics +9 in 11 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 7 possessions. MJ's only FG in the quarter came against Payton. Hawkins guarded Jordan on 14 possessions. At the final minute mark out of a timeout, it was Hawkins who picked up Jordan from halfcourt while Payton was in the corner guarding Steve Kerr.
Payton is a great defender but nowhere as good as his reputation would suggest.

Where did you find these numbers?

[LA Bird]

No clear candidate for me but of the top 3 guys mentioned here, I would go with Walt Frazier. West has the incredible steal and block stats in his final season but the Lakers pre Wilt were fairly mediocre defensively and West's defensive impact per WOWY appears to be minimal (+7.0 Offense but only -0.2 Defense in raw ppg WOWY from 62~73).

Payton to me is just vastly overrated for the one undeserved DPOY and narrative from the Finals. People talk about Seattle as if they would have been a championship threat if Payton had guarded Jordan before G4.... which is ridiculous since if you rewatch the two quarters which won them games 4 and 5, Payton wasn't even guarding Jordan for the most part. I might have missed a possession here or there since I fast forwarded through the game but by my count
G4 Q2 (Sonics +17 in 21 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 3 possessions. Hawkins (6), Wingate (6), Schrempf (4) all guarded MJ more than Payton.
G5 Q4 (Sonics +9 in 11 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 7 possessions. MJ's only FG in the quarter came against Payton. Hawkins guarded Jordan on 14 possessions. At the final minute mark out of a timeout, it was Hawkins who picked up Jordan from halfcourt while Payton was in the corner guarding Steve Kerr.
Payton is a great defender but nowhere as good as his reputation would suggest.

Where did you find these numbers?

Calculated it myself by summing the points for and against in all regular season games according to whether West played or not.

The exact number from 1962 to 1973 comes out at
Lakers with West (822 G): 116.9 ppg for, 111.9 ppg against
Lakers without West (151 G): 110.0 ppg for, 112.1 ppg against

[trex_8063]

I'm tentatively going with Jerry West as my pick here.

Let's first be clear about West's size/length. Do not be fooled by the 6'2" height listing that has largely stuck with him. He's on record indicating it was a without shoes height recorded as a freshman at West Virginia U, and it just stuck. He's on record later [in retirement] saying his without shoes height is closer to 6'4" (I'll see if I can find the audio interview where that is stated later).

I believe this is the interview you are referring to where West states that he is 6 feet, 4 and a half inches without shoes.

Watch on YouTube

Since players are listed today in their shoes, and shoes add about 1.5 inches, my guess is that he would probably be listed at 6-6 today. Which is what Kobe was listed at in his shoes, and given the photos you posted that show West and Kobe about the same height, that would make sense. And remember that West was well over 70 in those photos with Kobe so he likely has shrunken a couple of inches from his playing days.

Well there you go. I figured 6'4" or 6'5" would be his height listing today, but maybe even 6'6" is conceivable (unless he's embellishing a little in that interview).
Not ALL players today list their in-shoes height (and round UP); I once looked at a bunch of Draft Express listings vs standard bbref height listings, and that type of "exaggeration" tends to occur more in the PF/C groups than in the wings. There were several wings I found (JR Smith, DeMar DeRozan are a couple off the top of my head) for whom their WITHOUT shoes height (or within ~0.5" or so of it) is what is listed on bbref and nba.com.

otoh, then you have guys like Kevin Garnett, Bill Walton, and Kevin Durant who actually chose to have their height listings REDUCED from the reality.