Jimmy Butler for Alec Burks-Jae Crowder-2019 protect 1st

[zero24gravity]

No way am I giving up Rubio-a consummate locker room guy and teammate for a 1 year rental of locker room cancer in Butler.

Team chemistry > 1 year of Butler.

Fair enough. Rubio, by all accounts, seems like a great guy. He's also a good player. But top10-15 player in the NBA??? Not even close. I get what you're saying though. The Jazz would have to feel good about their chances of convincing Butler not just to stay, but also to buy into being a Jazzman.

The other thing to consider is, is Ricky even needed or someone the Jazz should/will re-sign after the season? If Exum comes along, and they have Mitchell as a PG-type (plus they just drafted a SG/PG in Allen), then Rubio may end up odd-man-out, especially if he wants a big contract. In the scenario I laid out, it may actually be flipping a possible 1 year rental in exchange for another. (Except Butler is a much better player.)

I agree that the locker room stuff is concerning. However, if the Jazz could, on paper, catapult themselves into title contender talks without losing a long term piece of the puzzle, they'd have to strongly consider it regardless of the risk.

[Rauxcee]

No way am I giving up Rubio-a consummate locker room guy and teammate for a 1 year rental of locker room cancer in Butler.

Team chemistry > 1 year of Butler.

The other thing to consider is, is Ricky even needed or someone the Jazz should/will re-sign after the season? If Exum comes along, and they have Mitchell as a PG-type (plus they just drafted a SG/PG in Allen), then Rubio may end up odd-man-out, especially if he wants a big contract. In the scenario I laid out, it may actually be flipping a possible 1 year rental in exchange for another. (Except Butler is a much better player.)

Yes. Anyone who watched the second half of last season after things clicked for Rubio, and more importantly the Houston series, should be able to answer that as a yes without even thinking about it. The Jazz went on the run at the end of the season for 2 reasons: Gobert and Rubio. The Jazz need him running the offense. They need him handling the ball in pressure situations in the 4th. They were a mess in the Houston series without him. I'm not saying we beat Houston with him, but we win at least 2 games and it's a much more competitive series. Kudos to Mitchell for doing his best in that situation, and he really did well all things considered, but we sorely missed Rubio.

We need another ball handler out there besides Mitchell. I still have a lot of hope for Exum, but he is never ever going to be able to handle the ball as starting PG. Or even as the PG in 4th quarter pressure situations. Not ever. He can play the 2, but we are back to having all the pressure on Mitchell to score, handle the ball, and run the offense. He's years away from that, and I'm not even sure we need that from him. I think Allen will see limited minutes if any and he'll be in his 3rd season before he's seeing anything more than 15 minutes a game at the present roster. We need multiple ball handlers on the floor at once and no one on the team is close to Mitchell or Rubio in that regard IMO.

Obviously how much Rubio wants to get paid may be a factor. Maybe not. If Rubio shoots close to what he was in the second half of last season, the Jazz are a very, very good team and that will make them very hard to beat. If he doesn't quite shoot as well, he still is a very good defender, passer, decision maker, locker room guy, and leader. The Jazz have coveted Rubio for a while. They've talked about him for a number of years before acquiring him and I think the FO wants him here. Also, Mitchell is really close with him. This is something small in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes to keep your franchise players happy (Mitchell and Gobert) you sign their friends.

And again, Butler will not re-sign with us. It's not the PG situation, or potentially even the Leonard situation. Butler flat out wants a big market. He doesn't care about winning, a well run organization, defense, or teammates that play hard. If he did, he wouldn't have picked the teams he did. It would be a 1 year rental. We can't compete with players that want a big market.

[ForeverRDjazz]

No way am I giving up Rubio-a consummate locker room guy and teammate for a 1 year rental of locker room cancer in Butler.

Team chemistry > 1 year of Butler.

The other thing to consider is, is Ricky even needed or someone the Jazz should/will re-sign after the season? If Exum comes along, and they have Mitchell as a PG-type (plus they just drafted a SG/PG in Allen), then Rubio may end up odd-man-out, especially if he wants a big contract. In the scenario I laid out, it may actually be flipping a possible 1 year rental in exchange for another. (Except Butler is a much better player.)

Yes. Anyone who watched the second half of last season after things clicked for Rubio, and more importantly the Houston series, should be able to answer that as a yes without even thinking about it. The Jazz went on the run at the end of the season for 2 reasons: Gobert and Rubio. The Jazz need him running the offense. They need him handling the ball in pressure situations in the 4th. They were a mess in the Houston series without him. I'm not saying we beat Houston with him, but we win at least 2 games and it's a much more competitive series. Kudos to Mitchell for doing his best in that situation, and he really did well all things considered, but we sorely missed Rubio.

We need another ball handler out there besides Mitchell. I still have a lot of hope for Exum, but he is never ever going to be able to handle the ball as starting PG. Or even as the PG in 4th quarter pressure situations. Not ever. He can play the 2, but we are back to having all the pressure on Mitchell to score, handle the ball, and run the offense. He's years away from that, and I'm not even sure we need that from him. I think Allen will see limited minutes if any and he'll be in his 3rd season before he's seeing anything more than 15 minutes a game at the present roster. We need multiple ball handlers on the floor at once and no one on the team is close to Mitchell or Rubio in that regard IMO.

Obviously how much Rubio wants to get paid may be a factor. Maybe not. If Rubio shoots close to what he was in the second half of last season, the Jazz are a very, very good team and that will make them very hard to beat. If he doesn't quite shoot as well, he still is a very good defender, passer, decision maker, locker room guy, and leader. The Jazz have coveted Rubio for a while. They've talked about him for a number of years before acquiring him and I think the FO wants him here. Also, Mitchell is really close with him. This is something small in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes to keep your franchise players happy (Mitchell and Gobert) you sign their friends.

And again, Butler will not re-sign with us. It's not the PG situation, or potentially even the Leonard situation. Butler flat out wants a big market. He doesn't care about winning, a well run organization, defense, or teammates that play hard. If he did, he wouldn't have picked the teams he did. It would be a 1 year rental. We can't compete with players that want a big market.

I think he wants big market team. But when the dust settles? Watch Kyrie Irviing join in when he becomes a free agent. Good Young center in New York? Ricky Rubio isn't the PG he want to play with. I'd rather go after Harris next season than Butler.Better fit and wants to play in Utah from the sounds of it. Win Win.

[Luigi]

I'd rather go after Harris next season than Butler.Better fit and wants to play in Utah from the sounds of it. Win Win.

Source?

If so, I'm very happy to hear it.

[TheBallsDeeper]

(76's fan who likes to watch the Jazz because I'm Australian)

Would you do a straight swap - Exum for Butler?

Butler is currently a much better player, great defensively which is what Utah seem to focus on, and could add a great scoring option. If Butler gelled with the team and was at his best I could seriously see the Jazz in the mix with GSW. However he could walk in a year (hopefully can convince him to stay), but may also be a danger to the culture, which I see as Utahs greatest strength.

Dante has shown glimpses but has not realised his potential, may not have the ball skills for a PG, or the shot for a SG, and will be stuck behind Rubio and Mitchell. However has a three year contract, great defence to play along side Wiggins and would get the opportunity to run the point in a system that is different from the one that currently sees him standing in the corner as a spot up shooter.

It could be win/win, it could also be lose/lose.

Thoughts?

[SoCalJazzFan]

And again, Butler will not re-sign with us. It's not the PG situation, or potentially even the Leonard situation. Butler flat out wants a big market. He doesn't care about winning, a well run organization, defense, or teammates that play hard. If he did, he wouldn't have picked the teams he did. It would be a 1 year rental. We can't compete with players that want a big market.

I am not entirely disagreeing with you, but I don't entirely agree with you on this point either. It sure seemed that PG13 was only interested in Los Angeles when he bailed on Indiana. It was a super young team with no stars and the draw appeared to be the big city/market and his hometown (he is from about 1.5 hrs away from downtown). It seemed almost foolish for OKC to give up assets for a 1 yr rental. However, he gelled with the Thunder and felt appreciated and very surprisingly stayed in OKC.

I could see a similar situation with Jimmy B. I think that he is looking to get paid and go to a team that will have the cap space and market appeal to draw another superstar to him. However, he could find success with the Jazz, gel based on their blue collar, defensive minded culture and approach and realize that the Jazz already have the extra stars needed to win.

There certainly is a risk that he could be a locker room cancer, but most of his public complaints have been directed to his team not performing at the level he would like or being in shape or as committed as he would like. That is awfully reminiscent of Karl Malone. Butler is not nearly as big city as other NBA players. Good grief, he drives a minivan around Minn and listens to country music. I think that he wants to get paid and have some help winning. The Jazz could offer that.

[KqWIN]

I’m with SoCal on this one. Jimmy biggest issue seems to be that he thinks his teammates are soft and don’t work hard enough. We’ve praised Rudy doing very similar things. I don’t necessarily think it’s healthy to call out your teammates...but if your problem is that people don’t compete hard enough, I can live with that.

The Rubio “beef” was also overblown. I saw tweets from people around the situation who said it was just normal, fun trash talk. It wasn’t serious...just like the Rubio-Gobert “beef” wasn’t serious.

Jimmy would find common ground here in Utah. Let’s be clear about our culture, it’s not for everyone. There have been several players who left on somewhat bad terms. If you’re soft, don’t compete, and don’t work hard this is not the team for you. This is a place for people who grind and work hard. The type of players who Jimmy complains about get sent out quickly.

I’m not saying we do everything in our power to trade for him...but the idea that we wouldn’t take him for free is just insane. For all the cancer Jimmy caused, he brought the Wolves to their best season in more than a decade. They weren’t a good team when he was injured either. He’s an elite talent and you can’t pass that up.

[zero24gravity]

No way am I giving up Rubio-a consummate locker room guy and teammate for a 1 year rental of locker room cancer in Butler.

Team chemistry > 1 year of Butler.

The other thing to consider is, is Ricky even needed or someone the Jazz should/will re-sign after the season? If Exum comes along, and they have Mitchell as a PG-type (plus they just drafted a SG/PG in Allen), then Rubio may end up odd-man-out, especially if he wants a big contract. In the scenario I laid out, it may actually be flipping a possible 1 year rental in exchange for another. (Except Butler is a much better player.)

Yes. Anyone who watched the second half of last season after things clicked for Rubio, and more importantly the Houston series, should be able to answer that as a yes without even thinking about it. The Jazz went on the run at the end of the season for 2 reasons: Gobert and Rubio. The Jazz need him running the offense. They need him handling the ball in pressure situations in the 4th. They were a mess in the Houston series without him. I'm not saying we beat Houston with him, but we win at least 2 games and it's a much more competitive series. Kudos to Mitchell for doing his best in that situation, and he really did well all things considered, but we sorely missed Rubio.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here ... I'm not sure which side of the fence I stand on in this debate.

There is a big difference between losing a player due to sudden injury & a team who plans to not have a player. If Rubio wasn't on the team, they'd be more prepared, it wouldn't be an adjust-on-the-fly situation like against Houston. And while I do think Ricky is a good player who adds value, I don't think the Jazz would be a mess without him, nor do they need him running the offense. The Jazz don't use a traditional offense where the PG sets things up, he's one of five. I think his D is actually his greatest asset to the Jazz, not his passing or scoring (which is a bit odd to say about a player who may be the best passer in the game, but the Jazz simply don't use that asset fully due to their offensive schemes).

From a pure basketball standpoint Butler > Rubio, I don't think that's debatable. However, you're right that fit, chemistry, "cancer", etc. are certainly other factors that us armchair GM's should consider.

Preseason games start Saturday! ... then we'll have non-fictitious things to debate

[ForeverRDjazz]

I'd rather go after Harris next season than Butler.Better fit and wants to play in Utah from the sounds of it. Win Win.

Source?

If so, I'm very happy to hear it.

Just before trade deadline last year I read / heard it some where. He said he like Q and the team form what I remember. Maybe it was tied to trade rumors with him and the jazz? He'd be a nice fit and this could be he's last year in L.A. Then sign him out right.

[zero24gravity]

Something I had forgotten that gives our little game of "trade (or not) for Butler" a twist is, Scott Layton is the Wolves GM. You know he'd take calls if the Jazz reached out.

[Rauxcee]

I am not entirely disagreeing with you, but I don't entirely agree with you on this point either. It sure seemed that PG13 was only interested in Los Angeles when he bailed on Indiana. It was a super young team with no stars and the draw appeared to be the big city/market and his hometown (he is from about 1.5 hrs away from downtown). It seemed almost foolish for OKC to give up assets for a 1 yr rental. However, he gelled with the Thunder and felt appreciated and very surprisingly stayed in OKC.

There's a big difference in wanting the Lakers versus the Nets and the Knicks. One is a distinguished franchise in Southern California. The other 2 have basically been the butt of the NBA for a decade.

I’m not saying we do everything in our power to trade for him...but the idea that we wouldn’t take him for free is just insane. For all the cancer Jimmy caused, he brought the Wolves to their best season in more than a decade. They weren’t a good team when he was injured either. He’s an elite talent and you can’t pass that up.

Oh I take him for "free" or close to it for sure. I just don't trade Rubio, or anyone in our starting lineup for him.

[PharmD]

I’m with SoCal on this one. Jimmy biggest issue seems to be that he thinks his teammates are soft and don’t work hard enough. We’ve praised Rudy doing very similar things. I don’t necessarily think it’s healthy to call out your teammates...but if your problem is that people don’t compete hard enough, I can live with that.

That's how Jimmy brands the problem, but the actual problem is that Jimmy is an giant ahole that made everyone miserable. Jimmy very much needs to be 'the man', thrives on conflict, and generally made my beloved wolves a chore to watch last season.

For example, Jimmy hogged the **** out of the ball in the clutch last year (42.7 usage) despite extremely poor results (38% FGs, iirc 0-11 on shots to tie or take the lead) while freezing out Towns (13.0 usage in games Jimmy played), one of the best scorers in the game. Jimmy, who had the ball in his hands nearly all the time in 143 clutch minutes, only assisted Towns three times in the clutch the whole season, with 2 of those coming in the first 5 games.

[Inigo Montoya]

That's how Jimmy brands the problem, but the actual problem is that Jimmy is an giant ahole that made everyone miserable. Jimmy very much needs to be 'the man', thrives on conflict, and generally made my beloved wolves a chore to watch last season.

But they did suck when he was out with an injury.

For example, Jimmy hogged the **** out of the ball in the clutch last year (42.7 usage) despite extremely poor results (38% FGs, iirc 0-11 on shots to tie or take the lead) while freezing out Towns (13.0 usage in games Jimmy played), one of the best scorers in the game. Jimmy, who had the ball in his hands nearly all the time in 143 clutch minutes, only assisted Towns three times in the clutch the whole season, with 2 of those coming in the first 5 games.

That sounds like a coaching problem more than a Jimmy problem. And Thibs isn't a good offensive coach.

[Denizfeital]

No way am I giving up Rubio-a consummate locker room guy and teammate for a 1 year rental of locker room cancer in Butler.

Team chemistry > 1 year of Butler.

Fair enough. Rubio, by all accounts, seems like a great guy. He's also a good player. But top10-15 player in the NBA??? Not even close. I get what you're saying though. The Jazz would have to feel good about their chances of convincing Butler not just to stay, but also to buy into being a Jazzman.

First of all: A cancer is a cancer. Period. There is nothing good about that. Nothing. Got it?

Second: Says who he is a top 10-15 player in NBA? Stats? Really, Top 10? What has he been achieved to put him there? I am not even bother to list 10-15 players better than him.

I know we are in the offseason, but man, that is really silly if you think he is worth that much.

Regards,

Deniz

[Crunch 99]

FWIW, Butler heads in to the season ranked #12 in the average of ESPN, SI, CBS and Real GM preseason player rankings that were compiled by the Real GM poster called THE JOKER. Our poster Luigi posted THE JOKER's complete list of player rankings in our Around the NBA thread in post #407.

The fact that Butler listed three big media market, non playoff teams with below average defense as his preferred destinations still worries me concerning chances for Butler to re-sign here. And I wouldn't give up Rubio in a trade for him. Rubio appears to like it here; he is a very important cog in our team performance and he will likely re-sign for far less money than Butler's 4 year, $141 million.

[PharmD]

That's how Jimmy brands the problem, but the actual problem is that Jimmy is an giant ahole that made everyone miserable. Jimmy very much needs to be 'the man', thrives on conflict, and generally made my beloved wolves a chore to watch last season.

But they did suck when he was out with an injury.

For example, Jimmy hogged the **** out of the ball in the clutch last year (42.7 usage) despite extremely poor results (38% FGs, iirc 0-11 on shots to tie or take the lead) while freezing out Towns (13.0 usage in games Jimmy played), one of the best scorers in the game. Jimmy, who had the ball in his hands nearly all the time in 143 clutch minutes, only assisted Towns three times in the clutch the whole season, with 2 of those coming in the first 5 games.

That sounds like a coaching problem more than a Jimmy problem. And Thibs isn't a good offensive coach.

The Wolves weren't all that bad when Jimmy was hurt. They were 10-11 during the toughest stretch of their schedule. The only losses to non-playoff teams were @Denver and @Memphis. They were pretty average, not sucky. They definitely missed him, of course. He's an all-NBA player.

[SoCalJazzFan]

As of this morning, the Heat appear to be in the lead with their trade offer, although reports are that the TWolves front office and ownership are a complete mess to deal with.

From what I have read, the Heat have offered, or are likely offering, Whiteside and either Winston or Josh Richardson and willing to take back Dieng with Butler. They only have two first round picks over the next 3 years, which complicates their ability to offer FRPs. They don't have the cap space next summer to resign Jimmy, and certainly not another star. They probably need to offer one of those picks to the Kings for an expiring for one of their non-expiring contracts, but I am not sure how that resolves the cap situation as they will either have Dieng or one of their contracts still. The whole situation will make a mediocre team even weaker, but still given Butler's skill reports are that they could end up with home court advantage in the East, but certainly not in the ECF.

If that is what the Jazz are up against offer-wise, they should be able to compete with that. Miami was publicly hanging out Whiteside for offers last year with no takers. Winslow was also on the table at the trade deadline, but once again no takers. He is up for a rookie extension, and really hasn't been impressive. Josh Richardson is decent, and has some future promise, but I wouldn't call him a replacement for an All NBA player. I would say he is at best a solid starter, although maybe not even a starter on some teams.

I'm excited about this team and love the players, but the reality is that they were severely mismatched against the Rockets in the playoffs, and clearly not a top 2 team in the West. Once again, seeds 3-8 will be super tight again this year with OKC, Memphis, and the Lakers all having greatly improved and Denver probably stepping into the Twolves spot. The Jazz could be good, but could realistically be 3rd seed or 8th seed, with this roster. Adding Jimmy Butler immediately launches them into being favored to be the #2 seed, IMO. They would have a fighting chance at the WCF, and possibly even get past the GSW to the Finals. If they are able to resign Jimmy (if they can get him here, I think that there is a better than 50/50 chance of that), then this situation would probably repeat itself for the next couple of years. The final year or two of Jimmy's contract would certainly be a concern, but hopefully the Jazz will have made full use of that roster by that point and made at least one Finals appearance.

These opportunities for possibly a trade of Burks, Jae or Thabo, Grayson and two first round picks. Utah could give one of these picks to the Kings to take on Dieng. Having the cap space to chase free agents next summer to pair with what they view to be two franchise players on their team already might appeal to the TWolves more than being saddled with a Whiteside or the like and convince them to trade to a division rival. I realize that there are concerns, but this might be the best opportunity the Jazz have to make the leap to contender.

[zero24gravity]

No way am I giving up Rubio-a consummate locker room guy and teammate for a 1 year rental of locker room cancer in Butler.

Team chemistry > 1 year of Butler.

Fair enough. Rubio, by all accounts, seems like a great guy. He's also a good player. But top10-15 player in the NBA??? Not even close. I get what you're saying though. The Jazz would have to feel good about their chances of convincing Butler not just to stay, but also to buy into being a Jazzman.

First of all: A cancer is a cancer. Period. There is nothing good about that. Nothing. Got it?

Second: Says who he is a top 10-15 player in NBA? Stats? Really, Top 10? What has he been achieved to put him there? I am not even bother to list 10-15 players better than him.

I know we are in the offseason, but man, that is really silly if you think he is worth that much.

Regards,

Deniz

<eye roll>

... that's all

[Luigi]

I would like the top 10 NBA player cancer, please.

[Rauxcee]

They don't have the cap space next summer to resign Jimmy, and certainly not another star.

Why? Wouldn't they have his bird rights?


I don't think our offer of leftovers is any more enticing than Miami's or anyone else's. And Minnesota is not trading a top 10-15 player to a division rival. That thought is asinine. The idea of cap space to sign a player to pair with their 2 franchise players is great. Sounds exactly like the Jazz. Also like the Jazz, no big time player will likely come in FA. I don't see it and it's not logical to me for the Wolves to take that approach.