#2 Best Defensive Point Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[kendogg]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate.

Why do I think the 90's are the strongest era? ****, I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted. It includes many of the highest rated playoffs of all time, and was so stacked with talent, that several absolute legends struggled to even get to the finals. Generally there is only a few total powerhouse teams in an era. The 90's were stacked. I've honestly never read a ranking of eras that didn't put the 90's first.

Lol

Why don't you give me your argument since you think mine is so funny?

[trex_8063]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate.

There are a lot of these combo guards for whom positional designation is hard. Jerry West has more of a SG's body, and was [usually], as you said, a "shoot first combo guard".
otoh, he was CONSISTENTLY the guy bringing the ball up and initiating the offense (traditional PG role), and this in an era that was not inclined to have players adopt non-traditional roles (no "point forwards" yet at that time). He also once led the league in apg (was 2nd in the league two other years). Additionally, he initially played alongside other guards of similar height (Frank Selvy and Dick Barnett), and all other guards he played with (Selvy, Barnett, and subsequently Gail Goodrich) were all at least equally, if not MORE, "shoot first" in their approach.

So if we had to designate who was the PG for most of those Laker teams, it generally seems clear it was West. Would that be the same on other teams? idk, maybe not.

At any rate, I lump him in with my PG's for those reasons. But I don't particularly fault anyone for putting him with the SG's (indeed, that seems to be how history wants to classify him).


With Iverson, I could go either way. I tend to put him with my SG's, but I can see the other side of the coin. He was very much PG's body, but played significantly more "shoot first" than West. Additionally, he had so many years starting next to Eric Snow (who definitely had more of a traditional PG role on offense--->though on defense it was often Snow guarding the SG and AI guarding the PG). So idk, I can see either side.
Guys like Tracy McGrady (SG or SF?), Penny Hardaway (PG or SG [or SF???]?), Dennis Johnson (PG or SG?), Tim Duncan (PF or C), and Pau Gasol (PF or C) can also be tough. Almost comes down to preference.

Why do I think the 90's are the strongest era? ****, I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted. It includes many of the highest rated playoffs of all time, and was so stacked with talent, that several absolute legends struggled to even get to the finals. Generally there is only a few total powerhouse teams in an era. The 90's were stacked. I've honestly never read a ranking of eras that didn't put the 90's first.

Really? I've read lots of opinions that do NOT put the 90's as the strongest era (though they're never near the bottom). The reasons usually revolve around the expansions (talent dilution) that happened in the late 80's and then again in the mid-90's, and smaller player pool (relative to more recent eras: with the ever-expanding global popularity of basketball and the league's increasing willingness to scout talent overseas).

It's true that a lot of the biggest all-time talents played the bulk of their careers in the 90's, but there was frequently some depth issues at that time that are more rarely seen today. For instance, a lot of people claim the early-mid 90's was the zenith or golden age for centers. And as far as competing for All-NBA honors as a center, I agree: the competition at the top was never better than it was as the early 90's inched into the mid-90's--->between prime Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Daugherty, and the appearance of young Shaq, Mourning, and Mutombo......yeah, that's crazy. But these people also ignore the fact that AT THE SAME TIME as those teams had all-time great talents at C, there were other teams who really didn't even have someone as good as a decent back-up level center, and were forced to start any lumbering big body they had. I'm just gonna throw a few names and numbers out there to augment this point:

Danny Schayes ('90-'95) - started 104 rs games in that span, and averaged 18.3 mpg overall in those years (between the ages of 30-35 at the time, too)
Mike Brown ('90-'94) - started 64 rs games and averaged 19.6 mpg
Charles Shackleford ('90, '92-'93) - started 99 rs games in those three years, and averaged 18.5 mpg
Randy Breuer ('90-'92) - started 124 rs games in those three years, averaging 20.6 mpg overall
Joe Kleine ('90-'95) - started 57 rs games and was a consistent rotational player avg 13.7 mpg overall in those years.
Greg Kite ('90-'92) - started 173 rs games and averaged 23.2 mpg in those years.
Bill Cartwright ('90-'95) - aging (32-37 years old, and post-injury) started 337 rs games and averaged 24.0 mpg collectively in these years.
Duane Causwell ('90-'95) - started 209 rs games and averaged 21.7 mpg collectively in those years
Olden Polynice ('91-'95) - started 259 rs games and averaged 27.4 mpg collectively in those years
Frank Brickowski ('90, '92-'93 [playing predominantly C those years]) - started 122 rs games those three years, averaging 26.1 mpg overall (all north of age 30, too).

I'll stop there 'cause RealGM's acting kinda buggy for me right now; but it boils down to roughly 1/5 of the league [or more??] at that time was starting someone who was Olden Polynice quality or worse during the early-mid 90's. Presently there are teams with better centers coming of the bench.

[trex_8063]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate.

Why do I think the 90's are the strongest era? ****, I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted. It includes many of the highest rated playoffs of all time, and was so stacked with talent, that several absolute legends struggled to even get to the finals. Generally there is only a few total powerhouse teams in an era. The 90's were stacked. I've honestly never read a ranking of eras that didn't put the 90's first.

Lol

"Lol" is not a substantive or appropriate response (mostly it's just baiting). Consider this an informal warning.

[kendogg]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate.

There are a lot of these combo guards for whom positional designation is hard. Jerry West has more of a SG's body, and was [usually], as you said, a "shoot first combo guard".
otoh, he was CONSISTENTLY the guy bringing the ball up and initiating the offense (traditional PG role), and this in an era that was not inclined to have players adopt non-traditional roles (no "point forwards" yet at that time). He also once led the league in apg (was 2nd in the league two other years). Additionally, he initially played alongside other guards of similar height (Frank Selvy and Dick Barnett), and all other guards he played with (Selvy, Barnett, and subsequently Gail Goodrich) were all at least equally, if not MORE, "shoot first" in their approach.

So if we had to designate who was the PG for most of those Laker teams, it generally seems clear it was West. Would that be the same on other teams? idk, maybe not.

At any rate, I lump him in with my PG's for those reasons. But I don't particularly fault anyone for putting him with the SG's (indeed, that seems to be how history wants to classify him).


With Iverson, I could go either way. I tend to put him with my SG's, but I can see the other side of the coin. He was very much PG's body, but played significantly more "shoot first" than West. Additionally, he had so many years starting next to Eric Snow (who definitely had more of a traditional PG role on offense--->though on defense it was often Snow guarding the SG and AI guarding the PG). So idk, I can see either side.
Guys like Tracy McGrady (SG or SF?), Penny Hardaway (PG or SG [or SF???]?), Dennis Johnson (PG or SG?), Tim Duncan (PF or C), and Pau Gasol (PF or C) can also be tough. Almost comes down to preference.

Why do I think the 90's are the strongest era? ****, I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted. It includes many of the highest rated playoffs of all time, and was so stacked with talent, that several absolute legends struggled to even get to the finals. Generally there is only a few total powerhouse teams in an era. The 90's were stacked. I've honestly never read a ranking of eras that didn't put the 90's first.

Really? I've read lots of opinions that do NOT put the 90's as the strongest era (though they're never near the bottom). The reasons usually revolve around the expansions (talent dilution) that happened in the late 80's and then again in the mid-90's, and smaller player pool (relative to more recent eras: with the ever-expanding global popularity of basketball and the league's increasing willingness to scout talent overseas).

It's true that a lot of the biggest all-time talents played the bulk of their careers in the 90's, but there was frequently some depth issues at that time that are more rarely seen today. For instance, a lot of people claim the early-mid 90's was the zenith or golden age for centers. And as far as competing for All-NBA honors as a center, I agree: the competition at the top was never better than it was as the early 90's inched into the mid-90's--->between prime Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Daugherty, and the appearance of young Shaq, Mourning, and Mutombo......yeah, that's crazy. But these same people ignore the fact that AT THE SAME TIME as those teams had all-time great talents at C, there were other teams who really didn't even have someone as good as a decent back-up level center, and were forced to start any lumbering big body they had. I'm just gonna throw a few names and numbers out there to augment this point:

Danny Schayes ('90-'95) - started 104 rs games in that span, and averaged 18.3 mpg overall in those years (between the ages of 30-35 at the time, too)
Mike Brown ('90-'94) - started 64 rs games and averaged 19.6 mpg
Charles Shackleford ('90, '92-'93) - started 99 rs games in those three years, and averaged 18.5 mpg
Randy Breuer ('90-'92) - started 124 rs games in those three years, averaging 20.6 mpg overall
Joe Kleine ('90-'95) - started 57 rs games and was a consistent rotational player avg 13.7 mpg overall in those years.
Greg Kite ('90-'92) - started 173 rs games and averaged 23.2 mpg in those years.
Bill Cartwright ('90-'95) - aging (32-37 years old, and post-injury) started 337 rs games and averaged 24.0 mpg collectively in these years.
Duane Causwell ('90-'95) - started 209 rs games and averaged 21.7 mpg collectively in those years
Olden Polynice ('91-'95) - started 259 rs games and averaged 27.4 mpg collectively in those years
Frank Brickowski ('90, '92-'93 [playing predominantly C those years]) - started 122 rs games those three years, averaging 26.1 mpg overall (all north of age 30, too).

I'll stop there 'cause RealGM's acting kinda buggy for me right now; but it boils down to roughly 1/5 of the league [or more??] at that time was starting someone who was Olden Polynice quality or worse during the early-mid 90's. Presently there are teams with better centers coming of the bench.

When I say strongest era, I mean top heavy. Sure there are **** at the end of the bench thats true for any era. But the number of superstars in the 90's seems to be much higher than any other era. When I think of players in history robbed of championship opportunities due to never playing with enough talent, it is almost all 90's players.

[trex_8063]

No clear candidate for me but of the top 3 guys mentioned here, I would go with Walt Frazier. West has the incredible steal and block stats in his final season but the Lakers pre Wilt were fairly mediocre defensively and West's defensive impact per WOWY appears to be minimal (+7.0 Offense but only -0.2 Defense in raw ppg WOWY from 62~73).

Payton to me is just vastly overrated for the one undeserved DPOY and narrative from the Finals. People talk about Seattle as if they would have been a championship threat if Payton had guarded Jordan before G4.... which is ridiculous since if you rewatch the two quarters which won them games 4 and 5, Payton wasn't even guarding Jordan for the most part. I might have missed a possession here or there since I fast forwarded through the game but by my count
G4 Q2 (Sonics +17 in 21 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 3 possessions. Hawkins (6), Wingate (6), Schrempf (4) all guarded MJ more than Payton.
G5 Q4 (Sonics +9 in 11 point victory): Payton guarded Jordan on 7 possessions. MJ's only FG in the quarter came against Payton. Hawkins guarded Jordan on 14 possessions. At the final minute mark out of a timeout, it was Hawkins who picked up Jordan from halfcourt while Payton was in the corner guarding Steve Kerr.
Payton is a great defender but nowhere as good as his reputation would suggest.

Where did you find these numbers?

Calculated it myself by summing the points for and against in all regular season games according to whether West played or not.

The exact number from 1962 to 1973 comes out at
Lakers with West (822 G): 116.9 ppg for, 111.9 ppg against
Lakers without West (151 G): 110.0 ppg for, 112.1 ppg against

fwiw, that's messy methodology. For one thing, there were fairly wild fluctuations in team and league-average pace between '62-'73. If you want to use WOWY to investigate for impact (defensive or otherwise), I think you need to look at individual year fluxes.

[trex_8063]

Thru post #45, I've got the count:

Walt Frazier - 5 (HeartBreakKid, countryboy667, penbeast0, Franco, LA Bird)
Jerry West - *5? (pandrade83, trex_8063, Bounce_9, Samurai, *[PistolPeteJR???])
Gary Payton - 2 (kendogg, euroleague)
Chris Paul - *2? (uberhikari, *[Heej??])
Mookie Blaylock - 1 (SHAQ32)
Nate McMillan - 1 (lebron3-14-3)
John Stockton - 1 (migya)

*some people are REALLY not making it clear if they are casting a vote within their post (and/or who the vote is actually for).

[PistolPeteJR]

I like the West breakdown. Very thorough and telling.
Not sure how Kidd got in at #1 tbh.
Next is West and Payton for me.

So your vote goes to? West?

Yessir.

[Gibson22]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate.

Why do I think the 90's are the strongest era? ****, I thought that was pretty much commonly accepted. It includes many of the highest rated playoffs of all time, and was so stacked with talent, that several absolute legends struggled to even get to the finals. Generally there is only a few total powerhouse teams in an era. The 90's were stacked. I've honestly never read a ranking of eras that didn't put the 90's first.

Lol

Why don't you give me your argument since you think mine is so funny?

I'm sorry, my fault. Anyway, I think that GP is a more than valid candidate, I wrote that because I found it really strange that you think it's a given that the 90s are the strongest era. It's pretty clear to me that they are literally the darkest age of the league from the 80s to the present

[pandrade83]

Lol

Why don't you give me your argument since you think mine is so funny?

I'm sorry, my fault. Anyway, I think that GP is a more than valid candidate, I wrote that because I found it really strange that you think it's a given that the 90s are the strongest era. It's pretty clear to me that they are literally the darkest age of the league from the 80s to the present

Things got pretty bad from 98-03 (maybe 01). That to me is the darkest age post the bird/magic era.

[trex_8063]

Why don't you give me your argument since you think mine is so funny?

I'm sorry, my fault. Anyway, I think that GP is a more than valid candidate, I wrote that because I found it really strange that you think it's a given that the 90s are the strongest era. It's pretty clear to me that they are literally the darkest age of the league from the 80s to the present

Things got pretty bad from 98-03 (maybe 01). That to me is the darkest age post the bird/magic era.

I agree: Jordan exited the league, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Pippen, Barkley, Dumars, Stockton, Rodman, Richmond, etc, had all exited their primes by the start of that period (and mostly retired before it was over); all this on the heels of recent expansion (+/- the semi-recent retirement of other notable stars) and the next generation of great talents arguably hadn't come to full fruition yet. AND the game was bogged down in that slow-paced iso-ball defensive grind. So it was a bit ugly for a few years.

The earlier 90's were a pretty strong era though. Not necessarily the best, but not far off it (imo).

EDIT: btw lebron3-14-3, unless some additional votes come in soon, this one will have to go to a West/Frazier runoff.

[kendogg]

Lol

Why don't you give me your argument since you think mine is so funny?

I'm sorry, my fault. Anyway, I think that GP is a more than valid candidate, I wrote that because I found it really strange that you think it's a given that the 90s are the strongest era. It's pretty clear to me that they are literally the darkest age of the league from the 80s to the present

Like I said, of every single "what is the best era" journalistic article I have ever read has had 90's as #1. It had the most viewership, the most exciting players, the era with the most dominating showman of all time, who boosted NBA numbers into the stratosphere almost single handedly. As soon as MJ retired, viewership numbers dropped off. 1999 was the lowest point in the NBA since the 70's. The 00's were not horrible talent wise but a slight drop from 90's in terms of sheer amount of superstar talent. The 10's have some stars but it is too early to tell how many of their careers will play out. The 80's was the beginning of the revitalization after the 70's where the NBA almost collapsed entirely it was so unpopular. The 80's were not weak either and pretty comparable to the 00's I think but the 90's were just a bit tougher. And it's not just Jordan taking 3 titles. The parity in the league I think was actually super healthy at that time and the Bulls were actually tested more than once each run despite being arguably the best dynasty of the modern era. It was also the last era that the Eastern Conference wasn't the Leastern Conference.

[Gibson22]

I'm sorry, my fault. Anyway, I think that GP is a more than valid candidate, I wrote that because I found it really strange that you think it's a given that the 90s are the strongest era. It's pretty clear to me that they are literally the darkest age of the league from the 80s to the present

Things got pretty bad from 98-03 (maybe 01). That to me is the darkest age post the bird/magic era.

I agree: Jordan exited the league, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Pippen, Barkley, Dumars, Stockton, Rodman, Richmond, etc, had all exited their primes by the start of that period (and mostly retired before it was over); all this on the heels of recent expansion (+/- the semi-recent retirement of other notable stars) and the next generation of great talents arguably hadn't come to full fruition yet. AND the game was bogged down in that slow-paced iso-ball defensive grind. So it was a bit ugly for a few years.

The earlier 90's were a pretty strong era though. Not necessarily the best, but not far off it (imo).

EDIT: btw lebron3-14-3, unless some additional votes come in soon, this one will have to go to a West/Frazier runoff.

I mean we still have more than 12 hours, no?

[penbeast0]

Why don't you give me your argument since you think mine is so funny?

I'm sorry, my fault. Anyway, I think that GP is a more than valid candidate, I wrote that because I found it really strange that you think it's a given that the 90s are the strongest era. It's pretty clear to me that they are literally the darkest age of the league from the 80s to the present

Like I said, of every single "what is the best era" journalistic article I have ever read has had 90's as #1. It had the most viewership, the most exciting players, the era with the most dominating showman of all time, who boosted NBA numbers into the stratosphere almost single handedly. As soon as MJ retired, viewership numbers dropped off. 1999 was the lowest point in the NBA since the 70's. The 00's were not horrible talent wise but a slight drop from 90's in terms of sheer amount of superstar talent. The 10's have some stars but it is too early to tell how many of their careers will play out. The 80's was the beginning of the revitalization after the 70's where the NBA almost collapsed entirely it was so unpopular. The 80's were not weak either and pretty comparable to the 00's I think but the 90's were just a bit tougher. And it's not just Jordan taking 3 titles. The parity in the league I think was actually super healthy at that time and the Bulls were actually tested more than once each run despite being arguably the best dynasty of the modern era. It was also the last era that the Eastern Conference wasn't the Leastern Conference.

Showmanship and media attention aren't really relevant to our discussion (except in negative terms if there was more showmanship because they played less defense on the stars). In terms of talent, it's pretty clear that the large increase in the talent pool from international players with real NBA ability and skills has created much more depth to the league than in the 90s. I would say that the current era is the deepest in talent (truly high end talent is another issue and depends where you put your cutoff for what is "high end"), then the 00s, then the 90s, but the 60s are probably stronger than the 80s overall for top talent with the smaller league concentrating the smaller talent pool on a lot less teams, and the 70s and 50s trail well behind due to expansion/more "playing for contracts"/cocaine in the 70s and incomplete integration in the 50s.

[trex_8063]

Things got pretty bad from 98-03 (maybe 01). That to me is the darkest age post the bird/magic era.

I agree: Jordan exited the league, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Pippen, Barkley, Dumars, Stockton, Rodman, Richmond, etc, had all exited their primes by the start of that period (and mostly retired before it was over); all this on the heels of recent expansion (+/- the semi-recent retirement of other notable stars) and the next generation of great talents arguably hadn't come to full fruition yet. AND the game was bogged down in that slow-paced iso-ball defensive grind. So it was a bit ugly for a few years.

The earlier 90's were a pretty strong era though. Not necessarily the best, but not far off it (imo).

EDIT: btw lebron3-14-3, unless some additional votes come in soon, this one will have to go to a West/Frazier runoff.

I mean we still have more than 12 hours, no?

It's your show, so it's got as long as you want. Last vote to come in was like over 16 hours ago, so it seems like that aspect of participation in this thread is slowing down. So I was just saying......I guess I presume too much though. I didn't even bother to ask if you intended to have runoffs, or simply call them tied for #2 and move on to #4. Didn't mean to step on your toes, if I have; trying to be helpful.

[Gibson22]

I agree: Jordan exited the league, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Pippen, Barkley, Dumars, Stockton, Rodman, Richmond, etc, had all exited their primes by the start of that period (and mostly retired before it was over); all this on the heels of recent expansion (+/- the semi-recent retirement of other notable stars) and the next generation of great talents arguably hadn't come to full fruition yet. AND the game was bogged down in that slow-paced iso-ball defensive grind. So it was a bit ugly for a few years.

The earlier 90's were a pretty strong era though. Not necessarily the best, but not far off it (imo).

EDIT: btw lebron3-14-3, unless some additional votes come in soon, this one will have to go to a West/Frazier runoff.

I mean we still have more than 12 hours, no?

It's your show, so it's got as long as you want. Last vote to come in was like over 16 hours ago, so it seems like that aspect of participation in this thread is slowing down. So I was just saying......I guess I presume too much though. I didn't even bother to ask if you intended to have runoffs, or simply call them tied for #2 and move on to #4. Didn't mean to step on your toes, if I have; trying to be helpful.

Yeah I want to have runoffs, and I didn't think you was stepping on my toes. Anyway, I would wait a couple of hours before starting the runoff.

[penbeast0]

Jerry is a shoot first combo guard, like AI. Is AI a PG too? Yes he handled it a lot because he was a better handler than most PG's. I still feel in my heart he is more of a SG and would absolutely play SG in a world where he could pick his backcourt mate....

But that's not our world. In our world, West played PG, Magic played guard rather than forward because the Lakers had Wilkes/Worthy, Bird played SF instead of PF despite being too slow, McAdoo and Alvin Adams played undersized at center, etc.

And, I think most NBA stars who play the 2 or 3 think they can be the PG and want the ball, Jimmy Butler has made comments like that, Marques Johnson claimed to be a "point forward," etc. I don't think many greats would choose to have the ball in their hands less if they could pick their backcourt partner so your statements seems counter intuitive at best.

[Gibson22]

Ok I opened the RUN-OFF thread, but I don't know when should it end

[Dr Positivity]

First of all I like the choices that are big for their position because being able to guard SG seems like an important asset to be top 2 all time. It seems me like Frazier was considered a better defender than West in his time. So I will say Frazier of the top voters

Vote Walt Frazier

[mdonnelly1989]

So, we start from the top, the #2 Best defensive point guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd

There are 19 candidates.

K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Jerry West (Lakers, 1961/74)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Walt Frazier (Knicks, Cavs, 1968/1980)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
John Stockton (Utah Jazz, 1985/2003)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Gary Payton (Seattle, Milwaukee, Lakers, Boston, Miami, 1991/2007)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Pick the second and explain why.
Somebody sticky this (maybe)

Please make a Poll

[Gibson22]

So, we start from the top, the #2 Best defensive point guard of all time.

1. Jason Kidd

There are 19 candidates.

K.C.Jones (Boston, 1959/1967)
Jerry West (Lakers, 1961/74)
Wali Jones (Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Utah Stars, Detroit, 1965/76)
Walt Frazier (Knicks, Cavs, 1968/1980)
Norm Van Lier (Cincinnati Royals, Bulls, Bucks, 1970/1979)
Don Buse (Indiana Pacers, Phoenix Suns, Portland, Kansas City Kings, 1973/1976 ABA, 1977/1985 NBA)
Dennis Johnson (Seattle, Phoenix, Boston, 1977/1990)
Micheal Ray Richardson (Knicks, Warriors, Nets, 1979/1986)
Maurice Cheeks (Philadeplhia, Spurs, Knicks, Hawks, Nets, 1979/1993)
Derek Harper (Dallas, Knicks, Orlando, Lakers, 1984/1999)
John Stockton (Utah Jazz, 1985/2003)
Nate McMillan (Seattle, 1987/1998)
Mookie Blaylock (Nets, Hawks, Warriors, 1990/2002)
Gary Payton (Seattle, Milwaukee, Lakers, Boston, Miami, 1991/2007)
Eric Snow (Seattle, Philadelphia, Cavs, 1996/2008)
Chris Paul (Clippers, Rockets, 2006-2018+)
Jrue Holiday (Philadelphia, Pelicans, 2010-2018+)
Ricky Rubio (Minnesota, Utah Jazz, 2012-2018+)
Patrick Beverley (Rockets, Clippers, 2013-2018+)

Pick the second and explain why.
Somebody sticky this (maybe)

Please make a Poll

who would you vote?