Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVIII: The Long Wait Continues

[fendilim]

Having a young team means losing a lot. Losing a lot means lottery picks with more younger players. Delaying the process of putting said young players in a lineup together until there are 10-15 games left in the season instead of giving them a bulk of the minutes and growing together is not only bad for evaluation, it backs up the entire process of growth. Those young guys that had to wait a year to actually be involved or play with the guys they envisioned playing with at the start aren't going to let some new rookie come in, no matter how ready or not he is, and let them basically skip an entire phase that they had to go through. It fostered a bad environment where everything seemed to be the slow burn approach.

I actually agree with this. But if you're taking about Isaac, then IDK how we approach this. Isaac had a really injury-riddled rookie season last year, and it was best that we re-built his body before anything else. Maybe this will be the same approach with Bamba, hopefully not. But Bamba struggled banging bodies against summer league competition. Hopefully he will have a healthier rookie season than Isaac however.

But if you're talking about our past teams, to be honest, I think its worth looking back and see that it was only during Mario's rookie year that we started limiting our rookie's minutes. In fact, that was one of the differences Hennigan had with Skiles. Hennigan wanted to play our young guys, and Skiles wanted Mario to earn his minutes. Gordon didn't get much minutes early on because we had Tobias, who was already better than him. And we actually opened up minutes for Gordon when we traded Tobias. But really, Hezonja may have just arrived at the right place but at the wrong time.

If we're talking about the Harkless or the OQuinn, then you may have a point. However, would you have gifted Harkless more minutes when he looked very passive for most of the time he was on the court? The newer guys like Gordon and Tobias were proving more worthy of the playing time on the court. Oquinn, himself, was playing behind Vuc, who was a better "young" piece at that time. But I do recall us giving Oquinn the role of being the inbounder during crucial situation because he was "good" at it, which is kind of a big role too if you think about it.

THe real reason why we actually ended up not playing these guys minutes, was actually how messed up the first re-build was. Guys were basically playing the same position. Actually, think about it, only Payton and Oladipo didn't really have any competition for those minutes. We even played Evan at SF, and even have a lineups of Payton-Oladipo-Evan-Tobias-Vuc.

[MagicFan101]

It appears Kyrie Irving intends to sign an extension with the Celtics. I see Marcus Smart as an ideal backup / compliment to Irving.

Rozier is surely the odd man out and trade bait. People seem to be 50/50 on him around here but I hope we push for a mid-season deal and test drive him before investing long term. He’s a better prospect than most others we may target.

[SOUL]

The way people bring up Payton when the discussion is squarely on Vucevic is like Trump supporters still bringing up Hilary because they can't face the facts.

HAHAHAHA. You, Mr. Hilary supporter, are the ones opposed to facts. Go look at EVERY key economic indicator for some facts. Or just go watch CNN and let them convince you the world is burning. Save your self righteous posts for a different forum.

Basketball please.

1. I'm not a Hillary supporter. I was alluding to the fact that there are people here that ignore clearly addressed points and questions that they can't refute or respond to without bringing up another player all together to get the heat off of them.

2. Key economic factor for what? What does that have to do with a strategy that the actual president employs?

3. I'll take your "basketball please" comment seriously when it's addressed to the person who brought a politician's name up first, and not somebody you clearly disagree with.

Anyway, I'm not continuing political discourse in here because it never ends well, but I notice some posters have been doing it for years, so I wanted to get my quick jabs in while I enjoy my post-mod life.

[SOUL]

I actually agree with this. But if you're taking about Isaac, then IDK how we approach this. Isaac had a really injury-riddled rookie season last year, and it was best that we re-built his body before anything else. Maybe this will be the same approach with Bamba, hopefully not. But Bamba struggled banging bodies against summer league competition. Hopefully he will have a healthier rookie season than Isaac however.

But if you're talking about our past teams, to be honest, I think its worth looking back and see that it was only during Mario's rookie year that we started limiting our rookie's minutes. In fact, that was one of the differences Hennigan had with Skiles. Hennigan wanted to play our young guys, and Skiles wanted Mario to earn his minutes. Gordon didn't get much minutes early on because we had Tobias, who was already better than him. And we actually opened up minutes for Gordon when we traded Tobias. But really, Hezonja may have just arrived at the right place but at the wrong time.

If we're talking about the Harkless or the OQuinn, then you may have a point. However, would you have gifted Harkless more minutes when he looked very passive for most of the time he was on the court? The newer guys like Gordon and Tobias were proving more worthy of the playing time on the court. Oquinn, himself, was playing behind Vuc, who was a better "young" piece at that time. But I do recall us giving Oquinn the role of being the inbounder during crucial situation because he was "good" at it, which is kind of a big role too if you think about it.

THe real reason why we actually ended up not playing these guys minutes, was actually how messed up the first re-build was. Guys were basically playing the same position. Actually, think about it, only Payton and Oladipo didn't really have any competition for those minutes. We even played Evan at SF, and even have a lineups of Payton-Oladipo-Evan-Tobias-Vuc.

Yeah it's not entirely applicable to Isaac, and it's only speculation about what would've happened if him and everybody on our team wasn't injured, so it's hard to say definitively if the same thing would've happened to him. Signs point to yes, but who knows.

But doing it even in one small part, to one player, it kind of throws everything off track. I can't be fussed to look at the minutes of each lineup throughout the years, but I remember being absolutely shocked with how little certain lineups were being played out there and how long it took our coaches to play certain styles.

Keep in mind, this is without taking into account young players sucking or struggling in certain areas, I get that you can't reward bad play with a bunch of minutes, but we mismanaged a lot here. It's hard to say that the players sucking (surprise, they're young!) was the only reason for this cycle we're in if a good number of them are on other teams contributing as decent role players to flat out top 10-15 talents in Oladipo.

It's clear we need a star talent, but we also need the foresight and patience (as far as time) to be able to produce one with the player(s) we deem to have the highest ceilings.

[MAGICian619]

The way people bring up Payton when the discussion is squarely on Vucevic is like Trump supporters still bringing up Hilary because they can't face the facts.

HAHAHAHA. You, Mr. Hilary supporter, are the ones opposed to facts. Go look at EVERY key economic indicator for some facts. Or just go watch CNN and let them convince you the world is burning. Save your self righteous posts for a different forum.

Basketball please.

1. I'm not a Hillary supporter. I was alluding to the fact that there are people here that ignore clearly addressed points and questions that they can't refute or respond to without bringing up another player all together to get the heat off of them.

2. Key economic factor for what? What does that have to do with a strategy that the actual president employs?

3. I'll take your "basketball please" comment seriously when it's addressed to the person who brought a politician's name up first, and not somebody you clearly disagree with.

Anyway, I'm not continuing political discourse in here because it never ends well, but I notice some posters have been doing it for years, so I wanted to get my quick jabs in while I enjoy my post-mod life.

Look i'm not talking politics on RealGm but i'm sick of the constant shot at Trump supporters. Also, you can't be serious with your #2 question. I guess you are one of those that thinks the economy magically started booming when Trump's policies took effect. Not a coincidence my friend.

Anyways, moving on. Lets go Magic!

[PennytoShaq]

Completely validating my criticism of his hiring.

Well if that’s all it takes, it is safe to say that you would not give the guy a chance no matter what.

We literally all have agreed that preseason and media day is all words and it means nothing. Yet you get upset when Clifford says something that is the truth? Vuc is the guy who Orlando has ran the offense through for years. And until he gets traded, that’s probably still going to be the case since we have no real perimeter scoring and very young wing players.

Does it make sense to bench a starter for a new draft pick that barely weighs 225? To me, it seems like an unreasonable thing to expect from an NBA team. Would I like to see Bamba start? Yes, for sure. But why would the Magic bench Vuc, especially when they are possibly trying to trade him?

I don’t really see anything wrong with what Clifford is saying here, and I am not even a huge fan of the hire. An NBA coach is going to play his best guys.

Most people were saying that Clifford would not start Isaac yet that appears to not be the case at all. Besides Bamba not starting yet, I don’t see much wrong with the projected rotation. But I haven’t heard many people who are super critical of Clifford acknowledge that Isaac starting is great thing for us. Instead I see overreaction that Vuc is still here when there has not been one decent trade rumor that he is a part of yet.

All I’m saying is that his reputation is to lean heavily on post play and playing people out of position - per every Hornets fan that lived through his tenure.
Having Clifford say that Vuc is integral to the offense and I see quotes like this -

“Stretching the floor, obviously, that’s the way the NBA is going,” Vucevic said. “That’s something I’ve worked on a lot. But Coach, he also said he wants to use me inside a lot. He saw how effective I was in the past years, especially two or three years ago, when we played a lot inside the way the NBA was going. He wants to go back to that some: have me score some easy ones inside, be inside-out, not only outside. I think that works perfect for me. I don’t want to be just running around the 3.

That’s going to piss off fans that are ****ing tired of watching Orlando struggle offensively using an outdated scheme. Orlando was terrible when Vuc was “effective” inside because it isn’t a dynamic offense and we’ve been using it as a crutch forever... Clifford won’t help that and these quotes solidify why people weren’t and aren’t excited. Add to that the fact that he’s not opposed to playing Bamba with Vuc and it’s exactly what Hornets fans warned us about with the hire. He literally says -

”One of the things that I’m hopeful of – and I don’t know if it will be this way from Day 1 – but that we will have a package of offense set to put in where they can play together some, too. I think so much of that will be dependent on whether they can play together, which I think they can”

How can he not see that won’t be effective and hasn’t worked since Vuc has been in the team next to various players. Starting Isaac isn’t justification for him being forward thinking. It’s expected with the extreme lack of talent. I’m fine with Bamba waiting and developing while Vuc starts.

What pisses me off is his approach to offense. Nothing he did in Charlotte was impressive with better talent. He played everyone out of position and played the roster “bigger” despite its ineffectiveness. This is what we assumed and were warned with his hiring. Even if you take everything he says to the media with a huge grain of salt, he isn’t doing himself any favors by reinforcing what people accused him of in Charlotte.

I just don’t see Vuc ever playing full time as a stretch 5. Why would you pull a very good rebounder out of the paint the entire time? It makes no sense to me. Add that Vuc is very slow. His 3 point shots mainly came from him trailing the ball down the court and getting an open 3.

When it comes to Bamba and Vuc, you have no real idea what will be effective or not. You are just guessing, while he is actually in practice watching it happen. He’s not a fool, if it sucks, he probably won’t deploy it that much. He even said basically that in the quote you posted.

And no, Isaac starting was not expected. You were complaining that Isaac most likely would not start just 6 weeks or so ago. A lot of people firmly expected it to be Evan and Ross just like last year. Let’s not rewrite history just to find zero reasons to give the coach any credit at all.

[Blue_and_Whte]

The way people bring up Payton when the discussion is squarely on Vucevic is like Trump supporters still bringing up Hilary because they can't face the facts.

Which facts? The ones that prove she lied and destroyed subpoenaed evidence or that they changed gross negligence to "oopsy she made a mistake" in an effort to protect her from prosecution? Wait.. Derailed.. Yes Vuc >>>> Payton

[Blue_and_Whte]

HAHAHAHA. You, Mr. Hilary supporter, are the ones opposed to facts. Go look at EVERY key economic indicator for some facts. Or just go watch CNN and let them convince you the world is burning. Save your self righteous posts for a different forum.

Basketball please.

1. I'm not a Hillary supporter. I was alluding to the fact that there are people here that ignore clearly addressed points and questions that they can't refute or respond to without bringing up another player all together to get the heat off of them.

2. Key economic factor for what? What does that have to do with a strategy that the actual president employs?

3. I'll take your "basketball please" comment seriously when it's addressed to the person who brought a politician's name up first, and not somebody you clearly disagree with.

Anyway, I'm not continuing political discourse in here because it never ends well, but I notice some posters have been doing it for years, so I wanted to get my quick jabs in while I enjoy my post-mod life.

Look i'm not talking politics on RealGm but i'm sick of the constant shot at Trump supporters. Also, you can't be serious with your #2 question. I guess you are one of those that thinks the economy magically started booming when Trump's policies took effect. Not a coincidence my friend.

Anyways, moving on. Lets go Magic!

According to Obama, you can thank Obama for that. You'll find him at the ObamaLand shrine he's building for himself on waterfront property he's paying $10 for in failing Chicago for doing nothing.

Sorry Go Magic

[Blue_and_Whte]

Just imagine if we resigned Vuc next offseason lol

Then wed have two good centers. (assuming bamba pans out). Plus the whining and crying would rival Hillary supporters after the election.

Sent from my VS501 using RealGM mobile app

You're right, keeping Vuc as starting center the next 4 years would be almost as bad as Trump as president.

I guess, if you think prospering economic growth, continued job creation, the denuclearization of the Korean peninsula and having a very strong center rotation are all bad things.

[MagicFan101]

Can we all just agree that this past election would have been better performed with a fight to the death, trial by combat, where both lost simultaneously and a 3rd option not named Trump or Clinton was inserted? Can we just agree to that and move on?

[doct3r dr3]

Prediction: Mo Bamba will begin the season behind Timofey Mozgov in the rotation

Barring injury, there is next to no chance whatsoever of this happening. Bamba behind Vuc and even Birch? Perhaps. But Mozgov is a statue on the bench brought in only because he is more content with such a role than Biz was and provides less of a distraction or lockeroon disturbance.

Mozgov started almost half of the games he played last season (13 of 31) and averaged a double-double, per 36 minutes (13.1 points, 9.8 reb). He is a 9th year veteran. And regarding Bamba, Coach Clifford is quoted as saying:

"... in Summer League he was limited with minutes because of, just, physically, where he was at. So it's going to take him some time to get there. And how we bring him along is going to be critical to that. You don't go in July from being limited in Summer League, to ready to go in an NBA game without a lot of work."

...

[pepe1991]

Prediction: Mo Bamba will begin the season behind Timofey Mozgov in the rotation

Barring injury, there is next to no chance whatsoever of this happening. Bamba behind Vuc and even Birch? Perhaps. But Mozgov is a statue on the bench brought in only because he is more content with such a role than Biz was and provides less of a distraction or lockeroon disturbance.

Mozgov started almost half of the games he played last season (13 of 31) and averaged a double-double, per 36 minutes (13.1 points, 9.8 reb). He is a 9th year veteran. And regarding Bamba, Coach Clifford is quoted as saying:

"... in Summer League he was limited with minutes because of, just, physically, where he was at. So it's going to take him some time to get there. And how we bring him along is going to be critical to that. You don't go in July from being limited in Summer League, to ready to go in an NBA game without a lot of work."

...

I expect to see Birch over Mozgov. Or at least i hope for that.

[PrimeThyme]

[MagicFan101]

Prediction: Mo Bamba will begin the season behind Timofey Mozgov in the rotation

Barring injury, there is next to no chance whatsoever of this happening. Bamba behind Vuc and even Birch? Perhaps. But Mozgov is a statue on the bench brought in only because he is more content with such a role than Biz was and provides less of a distraction or lockeroon disturbance.

Mozgov started almost half of the games he played last season (13 of 31) and averaged a double-double, per 36 minutes (13.1 points, 9.8 reb). He is a 9th year veteran. And regarding Bamba, Coach Clifford is quoted as saying:

"... in Summer League he was limited with minutes because of, just, physically, where he was at. So it's going to take him some time to get there. And how we bring him along is going to be critical to that. You don't go in July from being limited in Summer League, to ready to go in an NBA game without a lot of work."

...

The past is the past and in this case, has nothing to do with the present. Cool story though.

[Blue_and_Whte]

Can we all just agree that this past election would have been better performed with a fight to the death, trial by combat, where both lost simultaneously and a 3rd option not named Trump or Clinton was inserted? Can we just agree to that and move on?

Nope.
Financial prosperity, enforcing our border laws (lowest illegal immigration rate in 17 years), job creation, putting America first in terms of trade deals, peace through strength. a Reagan style trajectory is Pretty much what I voted for. So nope. I'm quite happy.

[MagicFan101]

Can we all just agree that this past election would have been better performed with a fight to the death, trial by combat, where both lost simultaneously and a 3rd option not named Trump or Clinton was inserted? Can we just agree to that and move on?

Nope.
Financial prosperity, enforcing our border laws (lowest illegal immigration rate in 17 years), job creation, putting America first in terms of trade deals, peace through strength. a Reagan style trajectory is Pretty much what I voted for. So nope. I'm quite happy.

lol. Blind followers are fun to watch.

Those trade deals are not putting “America First” they are putting America alone.

I’m enjoying the short term financial gains as much as anyone but all of us in the financial sector are bracing for the fall soon to come. All markets are forecasting a correction recession soon. I won’t blame Trump when it happens just as I don’t give him credit for the current financial lift. His trade war won’t help the situation but these predictions date back before such events.

[OrlMagic05]

Can we all just agree that this past election would have been better performed with a fight to the death, trial by combat, where both lost simultaneously and a 3rd option not named Trump or Clinton was inserted? Can we just agree to that and move on?

Nope.
Financial prosperity, enforcing our border laws (lowest illegal immigration rate in 17 years), job creation, putting America first in terms of trade deals, peace through strength. a Reagan style trajectory is Pretty much what I voted for. So nope. I'm quite happy.

And being the laughing stock at the UN... Great.. "No other President in the nations history has accomplished what I have" HAHAHA ok...

EDIT** If you google "laughing stock" Trump literally comes up.. You can't make this ish up lol

But lets get back to basketball..

[VFX]

Well if that’s all it takes, it is safe to say that you would not give the guy a chance no matter what.

We literally all have agreed that preseason and media day is all words and it means nothing. Yet you get upset when Clifford says something that is the truth? Vuc is the guy who Orlando has ran the offense through for years. And until he gets traded, that’s probably still going to be the case since we have no real perimeter scoring and very young wing players.

Does it make sense to bench a starter for a new draft pick that barely weighs 225? To me, it seems like an unreasonable thing to expect from an NBA team. Would I like to see Bamba start? Yes, for sure. But why would the Magic bench Vuc, especially when they are possibly trying to trade him?

I don’t really see anything wrong with what Clifford is saying here, and I am not even a huge fan of the hire. An NBA coach is going to play his best guys.

Most people were saying that Clifford would not start Isaac yet that appears to not be the case at all. Besides Bamba not starting yet, I don’t see much wrong with the projected rotation. But I haven’t heard many people who are super critical of Clifford acknowledge that Isaac starting is great thing for us. Instead I see overreaction that Vuc is still here when there has not been one decent trade rumor that he is a part of yet.

All I’m saying is that his reputation is to lean heavily on post play and playing people out of position - per every Hornets fan that lived through his tenure.
Having Clifford say that Vuc is integral to the offense and I see quotes like this -

“Stretching the floor, obviously, that’s the way the NBA is going,” Vucevic said. “That’s something I’ve worked on a lot. But Coach, he also said he wants to use me inside a lot. He saw how effective I was in the past years, especially two or three years ago, when we played a lot inside the way the NBA was going. He wants to go back to that some: have me score some easy ones inside, be inside-out, not only outside. I think that works perfect for me. I don’t want to be just running around the 3.

That’s going to piss off fans that are ****ing tired of watching Orlando struggle offensively using an outdated scheme. Orlando was terrible when Vuc was “effective” inside because it isn’t a dynamic offense and we’ve been using it as a crutch forever... Clifford won’t help that and these quotes solidify why people weren’t and aren’t excited. Add to that the fact that he’s not opposed to playing Bamba with Vuc and it’s exactly what Hornets fans warned us about with the hire. He literally says -

”One of the things that I’m hopeful of – and I don’t know if it will be this way from Day 1 – but that we will have a package of offense set to put in where they can play together some, too. I think so much of that will be dependent on whether they can play together, which I think they can”

How can he not see that won’t be effective and hasn’t worked since Vuc has been in the team next to various players. Starting Isaac isn’t justification for him being forward thinking. It’s expected with the extreme lack of talent. I’m fine with Bamba waiting and developing while Vuc starts.

What pisses me off is his approach to offense. Nothing he did in Charlotte was impressive with better talent. He played everyone out of position and played the roster “bigger” despite its ineffectiveness. This is what we assumed and were warned with his hiring. Even if you take everything he says to the media with a huge grain of salt, he isn’t doing himself any favors by reinforcing what people accused him of in Charlotte.

I just don’t see Vuc ever playing full time as a stretch 5. Why would you pull a very good rebounder out of the paint the entire time? It makes no sense to me. Add that Vuc is very slow. His 3 point shots mainly came from him trailing the ball down the court and getting an open 3.

When it comes to Bamba and Vuc, you have no real idea what will be effective or not. You are just guessing, while he is actually in practice watching it happen. He’s not a fool, if it sucks, he probably won’t deploy it that much. He even said basically that in the quote you posted.

And no, Isaac starting was not expected. You were complaining that Isaac most likely would not start just 6 weeks or so ago. A lot of people firmly expected it to be Evan and Ross just like last year. Let’s not rewrite history just to find zero reasons to give the coach any credit at all.

When did I say he wouldnt start? I simply don’t think him and AG will be effective on the court together. Also, I’m not “re-writing” history. I’m looking at what Hornets fans said when he was hired and putting two and two together per his quotes. This conversation has less to do with Vuc in particular and more to do with who Clifford is as a coach... You’re right. I don’t know what will exactly happen with Vuc and Bamba, but I don’t think Clifford does himself any favors by reinforcing what people were saying about him when he was hired.

[MagicFan101]

I fully expect some serious road bumps in the BIG experiment.

Some of you seem to have made up your mind that this will not work. How much time are you willing to allow them to work through such struggles before the premature “I told you so” posts come?

None of us know that this will work or not but surely we can agree that among the players currently on the roster these 3 are our best hope for a brighter future. Right?

[OrlMagic05]

I am very excited to see Isaac. It sounds like the team really might give him the opportunity to be one of the main guys on offense.