#3 Best Defensive Point Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[KnickFan33]

Jason Kidd turned out to be 1st? I have Payton comfortably ahead of him, though I suppose you can make an argument for longevity.

From what I've seen, I'd put Frazier at at #1 and Payton at #2.

Reasons have already been mentioned by other posters.

You can vote for the #3 spot

Payton

[Luigi]

I'll vote for Stockton over Paul here. It may be a homer vote, but I heard Hot Rod Hudley yell "Stockton Steals!" too many times to not.

Edit: Cancel that, one vote for Payton. Next up, Stockton.

[Gibson22]

I'm amazed Don Buse is even on this list as few fans know his name and even fewer actually saw him play. But back in the late 1970s when many were saying how "inferior" the ABA players were prior to the merger he was a big surprise to many NBA veterans after the merger. He was flat out an ace defensive stopper who also got a ton of steals (the most by any player the four years of 1976-77 to 1979-80) and at 6-4 always guarded the best PG, SG, or SF on the opposition regardless of who he was.

The Phoenix Suns were the league's second best defensive team (behind only Seattle) the three seasons of 1977-78 to 1979-80 despite being a poor shot blocking and poor rebounding team, and Buse was the only Suns player named to the all-defensive team. Think about that - the league's second best defensive team over a three year stretch, yet their best defender was their PG.

He was all-defensive first team the last two years of the ABA and the next 4 years of the NBA. He routinely shut down most of the best scorers in the league, and with teammates in Phoenix like Paul Westphal, Walter Davis, and Alvan Adams, you would think they were a great offensive team - but they weren't. They were however an excellent defensive team, that those three seasons had the league's third best regular season W-L record.

He likely won't be named high on your list of best defensive PGs, but for those of us that him play on a regular basis, he's easily top 5. No flash, no trash talking, just a stud defender.

Do you wish to express your vote?

Nate McMillan in 1994: 3.0 SPG in only 25.8 MPG.

I don't even know how that's physically possible.

Do you want to vote?

[Gibson22]

Nate McMillan in 1994: 3.0 SPG in only 25.8 MPG.

I don't even know how that's physically possible.

Do you want to vote?


EDIT: I tried to delete it but couldn't, sorry for the spam

[cecilthesheep]

I'll toss in another vote for Gary Payton. His peak may have been shorter than other top defensive guards, but it was also higher than just about anyone else's, and he has a big advantage which I value a lot: switchability. Someone like CP3, for instance, is a great on ball defender against other points, but has trouble against size. Payton could guard up multiple positions just fine.

DPOY voters aren't perfect by any stretch, but I do think there's a reason Payton is the only point guard ever to win a DPOY. Peak Payton was a terror unmatched by other points in the modern era.

[cecilthesheep]

Jason Kidd turned out to be 1st? I have Payton comfortably ahead of him, though I suppose you can make an argument for longevity.

From what I've seen, I'd put Frazier at at #1 and Payton at #2.

Reasons have already been mentioned by other posters.

I agree with you. Kidd to me is in a fight for third with people like Norm Van Lier and John Stockton. I get what people are saying about his value as a help defender and a rebounder, but being able to lock your guy down in on-ball defense matters too, and Kidd was never spectacular at that. I also value high peaks over longevity.

[Gibson22]

I'll toss in another vote for Gary Payton. His peak may have been shorter than other top defensive guards, but it was also higher than just about anyone else's, and he has a big advantage which I value a lot: switchability. Someone like CP3, for instance, is a great on ball defender against other points, but has trouble against size. Payton could guard up multiple positions just fine.

DPOY voters aren't perfect by any stretch, but I do think there's a reason Payton is the only point guard ever to win a DPOY. Peak Payton was a terror unmatched by other points in the modern era.

Yeah in my opinion, GP is better than cp3 on defense in every single aspect expect maybe help defense: disturbing the dribble, contesting shots, size, intimidation, effort (I mean cp3 has the ball in his hands every single time, at least before this season, so he can't try his best every defensive possession) accolades.

When I look at the whole picture cp3 has his arguments: longevity, probably help defense and the fact that he faced the golden era of PGs, but at the same time, I don't think he had much success at shutting down elite PGs, not that I think it's possible to shut em down.

But I mean I think gp was clearly better at his peak, and another thing, you know the youtube videos PLAYER X overrated defense exposed by PLAYER Y., I know they are ridicolous and stupid and all of that, but I think that someone like cp3 is a lot more likely to be "exposed" by someone than gary payton was even if you have to consider that nowadays with this level of shooting it is much easier to be """"""exposed""""""" by someone

[KnickFan33]

Under what rules are we basing this list off of? Truth be told, I'm not sure how "older" players would be able to defend without hand checking.

[Gibson22]

Under what rules are we basing this list off of? Truth be told, I'm not sure how "older" players would be able to defend without hand checking.

Under your rules. If you wanna consider in your judgment the superior difficulty of defending today without handchecking, that's fine

[Gibson22]

Gary Payton - 6 (kendogg, penbeast0, SinceGatlingWasaRookie, KnickFan33, luigi, cecilthesheep)
Jerry West - 4 (Samurai, PistolPeteJR, Bounce_9, pandrade83)
Chris Paul - 3 (uberhikari, Dr Positivity, trex_8063)
Nate McMillan - 1 (lebron3-14-3)
John Stockton - 1 (migya)
Mookie Blaylock - 1 (SHAQ32)

about 10 hours to go

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Under what rules are we basing this list off of? Truth be told, I'm not sure how "older" players would be able to defend without hand checking.

That's an interesting point.
What about the early days. Was their hand checking. I tend to think the 1960s would not allow much hand checking.
It seems to me that hand checking peaked in the 1990s.

[trex_8063]

Under what rules are we basing this list off of? Truth be told, I'm not sure how "older" players would be able to defend without hand checking.

That's an interesting point.
What about the early days. Was their hand checking. I tend to think the 1960s would not allow much hand checking.
It seems to me that hand checking peaked in the 1990s.

I feel like there's a fair bit of hand-checking in the games I've watched from the early and mid-70's, fwiw. Walt Frazier actually seemed particularly liberal with the hand-checking in the games I've watched, for example.

My impression [from what I've seen] is that they were a little tighter on calling it in the 60's, but it was definitely happening a little there, too.

[uberhikari]

Here is CP3's multiyear DRAPM: 2.69. That number is too damn big to dismiss without some serious evidence for other players. I can't do that in good conscience.

[Jaivl]

My gut wants to vote Mookie or McMillan, but let's be realist and vote for the higher-ups. On Payton vs West, Jerry West is my vote. For what we've seen he looks like a mooooonster on helps, quite better than Payton, and doesn't exactly look bad on 1vs1 coverage either (although IMO you definitely have to adjust somewhat for strength of opposition). Plus Payton's defensive work kinda waned when he became an offensive superstar.

Here is CP3's multiyear DRAPM: 2.69. That number is too damn big to dismiss without some serious evidence for other players. I can't do that in good conscience.

If you want to make a PM-based argument it would have to be for Ricky or Mookie, really. Both consistently score higher than Paul on D.

[LA Bird]

Here is CP3's multiyear DRAPM: 2.69. That number is too damn big to dismiss without some serious evidence for other players. I can't do that in good conscience.

If you want to make a PM-based argument it would have to be for Ricky or Mookie, really. Both consistently score higher than Paul on D.

Rubio is #1 in DRAPM among point guards but he is at 13k career minutes total. It's premature to have him in top 5 conversation.

I would disagree on Mookie. He has some elite DRAPM seasons but it's not "consistently" above 2014~17 Paul's (4 straight +2 DRAPM seasons). Of the point guards in the same period as Mookie, I would actually say Stockton's DRAPM was more impressive

Blaylock DRAPM
1997 NPI 1.20
1998 2.24
1999 2.47
2000 0.49
2001 NPI 0.50

Stockton DRAPM
1997 NPI 1.54
1998 2.04
1999 2.27
2000 3.06
2001 NPI 2.35
2002 2.85
2003 2.25

Beside Cheeks (who we have less defensive stats for), I would say Stockton is the strongest candidate remaining at this point especially with his longevity.

[Gibson22]

Payton beats West 6 to 5, we went a bit over the 48 hours. New thread Up!