Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[ClutchDJ]

My God @ putting Bledsoe over Wall. If that’s not asinine & pure hatred, then I don’t know what is. There’s 15 PGs alone better than Bledsoe.

[dckingsfan]

fan or fanatic (n.) A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause as for Wall being a top 15 player... okay - I am going to stop now. I like Dat too much for this - sorry.

You would be hard pressed to find 15 or even 5 guys that have average 26 & 11 the past 20 playoff games as Wall has. But okay tell me again how guys who fail to show up when games matter the most are so much better.

Okay, I'll bite - he took 27 shots to get those 26 points - it can't be good for team ball. That can't be good right? I think that puts his TS% around 50th during the playoffs for those playing more than 200 minutes.

But now you are literally ASKING me to bash Wall. And that wasn't my intent. All along I have said that Wall is a solid player. We just have to agree to disagree on where he is positioned (and why we think his contract value is/isn't inline with his play).

Dat - you would flat out be a better GM than EG - you are terrific at picking talent out of College - let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree on this one.

[DCZards]

I mean, just point guards better than Wall:

1. Cp3
2. Harden
3. Curry
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie
6. Lillard
7. Lowry
8. Bledsoe
9. Kemba

I can make a legit argument for Tyus Jones, but I won’t because of Wall fanboys.

The top 4 point guards listed here are hands down better than Wall (although I doubt that most people consider Harden a PG). After all, 3 of the top four are recent NBA MVPs and the fourth one (CP3) is arguably the top PG of his generation. I'd also give Kyrie the edge over Wall.

But Wallstar is just as good or better than #s 6-9.

[NatP4]

My God @ putting Bledsoe over Wall. If that’s not asinine & pure hatred, then I don’t know what is. There’s 15 PGs alone better than Bledsoe.

Ok, atleast fire back with some kind of pathetic attempt at an argument. Matter of fact, go ahead and name 15 point guards better than Bledsoe.

Atleast Dat backs up his personal attacks with Walls playoff performance.

This isn’t NBA 2K. Bledsoe is far more efficient and a much better defender than Wall. These are things that actually matter.

[TheBabyMaker]

I mean, just point guards better than Wall:

1. Cp3
2. Harden
3. Curry
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie
6. Lillard
7. Lowry
8. Bledsoe
9. Kemba

I can make a legit argument for Tyus Jones, but I won’t because of Wall fanboys.

Good list but I don't consider Harden a PG.

I would put Kemba over Bledsoe and maybe Wall this year.

[Dat2U]

I mean, just point guards better than Wall:

1. Cp3
2. Harden
3. Curry
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie
6. Lillard
7. Lowry
8. Bledsoe
9. Kemba

I can make a legit argument for Tyus Jones, but I won’t because of Wall fanboys.

Good list but I don't consider Harden a PG.

I would put Kemba over Bledsoe and maybe Wall this year.

If Wall put up a performance like Lillard or Bledsoe did last postseason this board would have apoplectic!

[Dat2U]

My God @ putting Bledsoe over Wall. If that’s not asinine & pure hatred, then I don’t know what is. There’s 15 PGs alone better than Bledsoe.

Ok, atleast fire back with some kind of pathetic attempt at an argument. Matter of fact, go ahead and name 15 point guards better than Bledsoe.

Atleast Dat backs up his personal attacks with Walls playoff performance.

This isn’t NBA 2K. Bledsoe is far more efficient and a much better defender than Wall. These are things that actually matter.

Your right this isn't 2k and they don't play games on a stat sheet.

Simple question. Who do you take in a 7-game playoff series? Bledsoe or Wall?

[Dat2U]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

10. Conley
11. Bledsoe
12. Dinwiddie
13. Rubio
14. J. Murray
15. VanVleet
16. D. Collison
17. Rozier
18. Ty. Jones
19. D. Murray
20. Dragic

[DCZards]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

10. Conley
11. Bledsoe
12. Dinwiddie
13. Rubio
14. J. Murray
15. VanVleet
16. D. Collison
17. Rozier
18. Ty. Jones
19. D. Murray
20. Dragic

Hey Dat, you forgot Jrue Holiday. (I assume that's an oversight.) He's become an exceptional two-way player. He may be the best defensive PG in the game. (Ask Lillard. Jrue completely shut down Dame during the playoffs last season.) I'd put Holiday 10-12.

[TheBabyMaker]

I mean, just point guards better than Wall:

1. Cp3
2. Harden
3. Curry
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie
6. Lillard
7. Lowry
8. Bledsoe
9. Kemba

I can make a legit argument for Tyus Jones, but I won’t because of Wall fanboys.

Good list but I don't consider Harden a PG.

I would put Kemba over Bledsoe and maybe Wall this year.

If Wall put up a performance like Lillard or Bledsoe did last postseason this board would have apoplectic!

They would do that if he played like Paul or Curry during the playoffs. LOL They lose its on him

[Dat2U]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

10. Conley
11. Bledsoe
12. Dinwiddie
13. Rubio
14. J. Murray
15. VanVleet
16. D. Collison
17. Rozier
18. Ty. Jones
19. D. Murray
20. Dragic

Hey Dat, you forgot Jrue Holiday. (I assume that's an oversight.) He's become an exceptional two-way player. He may be the best defensive PG in the game. (Ask Lillard. Jrue completely shut down Dame during the playoffs last season.) I'd put Holiday 10-12.

Jrue played the 2 last year alongside Rondo and this year they brought in Elfrid Payton & Jarrett Jack at the point. So like Harden, I have Jrue at the SG position.

[nate33]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

I'd put Lillard at the top of that 4-9 group, if not in the Westbrook tier. He was 4th in MVP voting last season, way higher than Wall has ever been. In today's game, the most critical need is a high usage, high efficiency scorer that can pressure the defense and force it to scramble. Lillard is one of the top 8 in the league at that. Wall is not.

[Dat2U]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

I'd put Lillard at the top of that 4-9 group, if not in the Westbrook tier. He was 4th in MVP voting last season, way higher than Wall has ever been. In today's game, the most critical need is a high usage, high efficiency scorer that can pressure the defense and force it to scramble. Lillard is one of the top 8 in the league at that. Wall is not.

I look what Lillard has done in the last 3 playoffs and whatever he does in regular season just doesnt translate. I have to ding him significantly for that.

Also 4-9 are pretty much interchangeable. I view their impact as similar overall. I have no problem if someone rates Lillard better but I provided the reason why I can't in my opinion rate Lillard better.

[ClutchDJ]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

I'd put Lillard at the top of that 4-9 group, if not in the Westbrook tier. He was 4th in MVP voting last season, way higher than Wall has ever been. In today's game, the most critical need is a high usage, high efficiency scorer that can pressure the defense and force it to scramble. Lillard is one of the top 8 in the league at that. Wall is not.

I look what Lillard has done in the last 3 playoffs and whatever he does in regular season just doesnt translate. I have to ding him significantly for that.

Also 4-9 are pretty much interchangeable. I view their impact as similar overall. I have no problem if someone rates Lillard better but I provided the reason why I can't in my opinion rate Lillard better.

I agree with this.

Dame is great, especially in the regular season, but man has he been awful in the playoffs ever since that series against the Rockets.

[NatP4]

The regular season vs playoff production is a valid argument forsure.

Wall was a monster in those 6 games this year and the 2015-2016 playoffs. Best player on the court.

[payitforward]

I mean, just point guards better than Wall:

1. Cp3
2. Harden
3. Curry
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie
6. Lillard
7. Lowry
8. Bledsoe
9. Kemba

I can make a legit argument for Tyus Jones, but I won’t because of Wall fanboys.

The top 4 point guards listed here are hands down better than Wall (although I doubt that most people consider Harden a PG). After all, 3 of the top four are recent NBA MVPs and the fourth one (CP3) is arguably the top PG of his generation. I'd also give Kyrie the edge over Wall.

But Wallstar is just as good or better than #s 6-9.

What are we talking about? Last year? Then you can add a bunch of guys to the list of those who had better seasons than John Wall.

Or are we talking about the year before, John's best NBA season? Then shouldn't we compare that to the best seasons of other players?

Are we talking about players on their overall careers? Then, if we're talking numbers (not anyone's eye test "beauty" contest), Kyrie & John Wall are extremely close.

But, if you add Kyle Lowry to the comparison, he's better than both of them. Then again... that's a little unfair because Lowry has so many more peak years going into his numbers to counter-balance the (inevitably less productive) first 3 years in the league.

You see the problem? Except in the most obvious cases, it's almost impossible to even say what you mean by one guy being better than another unless you have a specific season or seasons in view. & in that case, all you can really say is one guy was better or worse than another in that stretch.

One other point: any players in that group you compare him to, the biggest problem for John in the comparison is how much he turns the ball over. If that is kind of fudged over in the mind, then he looks better in the comparison than if TOs are really taken into account. Since, as a fan, a person might want him to look better in the comparison, a person might be likely to look away from those extra turnovers.

[payitforward]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

I'd put Lillard at the top of that 4-9 group, if not in the Westbrook tier. He was 4th in MVP voting last season, way higher than Wall has ever been. In today's game, the most critical need is a high usage, high efficiency scorer that can pressure the defense and force it to scramble. Lillard is one of the top 8 in the league at that. Wall is not.

I look what Lillard has done in the last 3 playoffs and whatever he does in regular season just doesnt translate. I have to ding him significantly for that.

Also 4-9 are pretty much interchangeable. I view their impact as similar overall. I have no problem if someone rates Lillard better but I provided the reason why I can't in my opinion rate Lillard better.

The disagreement about Lillard, big or small, illustrates my point.

1. Sure, Lillard is a way better scorer than Wall. But, however much that's needed, you can't simply leave out the fact that on his career, Lillard gets 2/3 as many assists as Wall. & about 60% as many steals.

2. OTOH, Dat wants to "ding" Lillard for playoff performance. Sure. But w/o some explicit way to do that, how do you know what it means? How much of a ding he should get in a comparison?

Plus, how can anyone "place" Ben Simmons anywhere -- he's had 1 season! A rookie season. In which he was better than any pg on your list not named Paul or Curry (agree that Harden isn't a pg).

Looked at another way, I'd trade anyone on your list straight up for Ben Simmons without a second thought. Including Curry & Paul, just b/c of how young he is.

[payitforward]

My PG list based on this coming season. I factor in proven ability to step up in the playoffs.

1. Curry
2. Paul

Small gap

3. Westbrook

Big gap

4. Wall
5. Irving
6. B. Simmons
7. Lowry
8. Lillard
9. K. Walker

Very little separates spots 4-9.

10. Conley
11. Bledsoe
12. Dinwiddie
13. Rubio
14. J. Murray
15. VanVleet
16. D. Collison
17. Rozier
18. Ty. Jones
19. D. Murray
20. Dragic

More problems with these "beauty contest" ratings. Rajon Rondo is not among the top 20 PGs in the league?

Rondo had a very good year last year -- a lot better than John's year.
Rondo has had a hell of a career -- over all the years both guys have played, I doubt a lot of people would put John Wall ahead of him.
Rondo has certainly stepped up in the playoffs.

Of course Dat or anybody can list whatever guys he wants in whatever order pleases him. If the numbers support the guy being there, it's "look at the numbers he put up...." If the number don't support the guy being there, it's "I don't care about the numbers; this isn't a numbers game."

& there you have the problem. Fortunately, as we all know, numbers play absolutely no role in basketball. Basketball is a display of "talent" -- kind of like a floor routine in gymnastics. All you have to do is watch & then hold up a card that reads "10".

Or maybe it's more like ballet. I know, how about bull-fighting? "Ole!"

[ClutchDJ]

I'd put Lillard at the top of that 4-9 group, if not in the Westbrook tier. He was 4th in MVP voting last season, way higher than Wall has ever been. In today's game, the most critical need is a high usage, high efficiency scorer that can pressure the defense and force it to scramble. Lillard is one of the top 8 in the league at that. Wall is not.

I look what Lillard has done in the last 3 playoffs and whatever he does in regular season just doesnt translate. I have to ding him significantly for that.

Also 4-9 are pretty much interchangeable. I view their impact as similar overall. I have no problem if someone rates Lillard better but I provided the reason why I can't in my opinion rate Lillard better.

The disagreement about Lillard, big or small, illustrates my point.

1. Sure, Lillard is a way better scorer than Wall. But, however much that's needed, you can't simply leave out the fact that on his career, Lillard gets 2/3 as many assists as Wall. & about 60% as many steals.

2. OTOH, Dat wants to "ding" Lillard for playoff performance. Sure. But w/o some explicit way to do that, how do you know what it means? How much of a ding he should get in a comparison?

Plus, how can anyone "place" Ben Simmons anywhere -- he's had 1 season! A rookie season. In which he was better than any pg on your list not named Paul or Curry (agree that Harden isn't a pg).

Looked at another way, I'd trade anyone on your list straight up for Ben Simmons without a second thought. Including Curry & Paul, just b/c of how young he is.

Curry for Simmons I just can’t get behind at all. Even though Curry is 30, his game is pretty much ageless. Simmons is good & is going to be very good for a while, but OTOH, he can barely shoot out of a brown paper bag at midrange.

[BigA]

fan or fanatic (n.) A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm

Hi dckingsfan--Are you going to do the predictions thread this year? Thanks!