Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[Nick K]

Sounds good but not true. If you look at the numbers, Butler rarely assisted Towns. In fact he had 3rd or 4th, close with Wiggins, worst usage late in games. Of course Teague and Butler had the highest usage numbers late in games.

This got me interested in looking at numbers from last year.

Well usg% in 4th quarters, yeah, Butler went high usage. (couldn't find anything more specific)
Butler 32.2
Towns 21.7
Wiggins 20.5
Teague 18.3

Assist% for 4th quarters
Teague 27.1
Tyus 25.9
Butler 20.4
Crawford 16.7
Towns 11.2
Wiggins 7.4

Looking across the league for "hero ball" in the 4th, 13 regulars with more usage then Butler with only 6 of them having a higher TS% then Butler.
Lebron 38.3
Harden 38.2
Oladipo 37.9
Mitchell 37.9
Irving 37.1
Westbrook 37.0
DeRozan 36.2
Embiid 34.7
Walker 34.7
Lillard 34.0
Beal 34.0
Schroder 33.3
Durrant 32.4
Butler 32.2

When I wrote that I was more referring to the last 5 minutes of a game. Thats when the usage for KAt went down when it matters most. I saw a great article this but can't remember where I saw it. It was a big indictment on Thibs as he's calling the plays. I'll look for the piece.

[Nick K]

None of them would sniff a starting spot with us and none of them would increase our win total by 16. Does Dunn actually start???
Wow.

Are you kidding? Zach and Markkanen would both start for us.

Dunn is still recovering from his face plant concussion. That said, I liked Jamal Murray in that draft. Hield would have been ok too.

Zach start over Butler or Wiggins????? Markkanen start over Gibson. No way. How is it working out for Chicago having those three start?

Are you aware Butler is not with the team?

It's working out pretty well for Chicago.

[Nick K]

Are you kidding? Zach and Markkanen would both start for us.

Dunn is still recovering from his face plant concussion. That said, I liked Jamal Murray in that draft. Hield would have been ok too.

Zach start over Butler or Wiggins????? Markkanen start over Gibson. No way.

I too liked Murray over Dunn. I don't think I would have taken Hield over Dunn.

Well, we agree on that. Actually we agree on many things. Sometimes it's fun to mix it up a bit.

[Calinks]

I wanted Murray for sure in the draft but I was a but biased. I didn't know about anyone else and I saw Murray play for team Canada before his freshman year in college. His play for team Canada as a highschool kid blew me away so I got on his bandwagon just based off of that lol.

[KGdaBom]

Are you kidding? Zach and Markkanen would both start for us.

Dunn is still recovering from his face plant concussion. That said, I liked Jamal Murray in that draft. Hield would have been ok too.

Zach start over Butler or Wiggins????? Markkanen start over Gibson. No way. How is it working out for Chicago having those three start?

Are you aware Butler is not with the team?

It's working out pretty well for Chicago.

Butler is a Timberwolf until he isn't. I was referring to Chicago's record.

[Asif16]

So whats the latest?

Dont you think the Owner would step in by now and handle the trade negotiations himself at this point?

[wolves_89]

So whats the latest?

Dont you think the Owner would step in by now and handle the trade negotiations himself at this point?

I think the only people who want Glen Taylor to step in are the teams pushing low-ball offers (and Butler).

[Nick K]

I wanted Murray for sure in the draft but I was a but biased. I didn't know about anyone else and I saw Murray play for team Canada before his freshman year in college. His play for team Canada as a highschool kid blew me away so I got on his bandwagon just based off of that lol.

I saw that too and I felt the same way. Total no-brainer on taking him but Thibs ignoring where the game is evolving, took a Derek Rose like PG instead.

[minimus]

Why would Minnesota settle for such a horrific trade return at this point? With the preseason games underway the rumors and speculation about Butler are dying down and everyone is settling in for a long process. The Wolves have already weathered the worst of the situation, it makes a lot of sense to use whatever time is needed up to the trade deadline to find a deal that helps the team (either now or in the future).

I hope you can get a good deal, trying to move Dieng along with Butler complicates things a lot though (unnecessarily imo).

Agreed. I actually think Dieng will have a good season.

If he gets enough playing time. Which I highly doubt

[minimus]

It is not trusted resource, but if it is true then we can imagine how bad are offers for Butler:

I know that the Wolves called the Bucks and asked for Khris Middleton, and that was rejected. I also know that the Bucks are open to moving Malcolm Brogdon, and Eric Bledsoe and his expiring $15 million contract are enticing to many teams.

But would the Bucks shake up their roster for a rental?

Especially a 30-year-old rental who has had two knee surgeries, wants a max contract and has become an instant pariah?

Doesn’t pass the “it makes sense” smell test.

https://www.getmoresports.com/jimmy-butler-trade-talks-show-hazards-sportswriting-profession/

So definetely Thibs and Butler saved this franchise.

[wolves_89]

My biggest question is whether the Wolves will start the clock on Butler. So far they've used the justification that he's rehabbing his hand, but that was a thin excuse at best and is likely not sustainable. If the Wolves tell Butler he has to report it starts a 30 day countdown, which means if Butler is still sitting out at the end of the 30 days he loses the ability to be a fee agent next off-season. I'm really curious to see how Thibs will play this over the next week.

[minimus]

My biggest question is whether the Wolves will start the clock on Butler. So far they've used the justification that he's rehabbing his hand, but that was a thin excuse at best and is likely not sustainable. If the Wolves tell Butler he has to report it starts a 30 day countdown, which means if Butler is still sitting out at the end of the 30 days he loses the ability to be a fee agent next off-season. I'm really curious to see how Thibs will play this over the next week.

They wont fine Butler till Thibs is GM/HC. That is clear.

[Sugarless]

I think the Wolves have lost a great opportunity by waiting so long before accepting JB won't be playing in Minnesota beyond next spring, if at all. If reports that Butler wanted out back in July were true, they should have made a move then and taken advantage of a more open market. And even if they weren't 100% accurate, you had to see it coming. Now not only there are less options on the table with almost every team operating above the cap, they also have to deal with the urgency of not going into the season in this state. And it's just gonna get worse with every passing week and teams shifting their sights to the regular season and the trade deadline or next summer's free agency.

Minnesota should be smart about this and understand that they're going to lose Butler for nothing and still be hamstrung financially next summer. If they can use Butler's trade to get rid of Gorgui and get an upgrade at PG such as Dragic, or just another average PG like Teague with a cheaper contract, they should absolutely do it, and the sooner the better. I don't care if there's not some great talent coming back in the trade (which isn't happening anyway), that doesn't mean you have to come out empty-handed. Clear the air in the locker room and give the team a chance to jell and fight for the playoffs while improving your salary situation and giving guys like Wiggins and KAT more room to improve. You never know how the season might turn out, and what options you may have next summer with a smaller payroll and a different look on some players.

[minimus]

BRO does not want to give us LeVert (who???) for Butler, but fans continue to think that Butler has a real value in this situation. I'm not saying about Dunn, LaVine and Markkannen. Just any real value whatsoever. I'd accept even expiring and FRP at this point.

Carroll, Crabbe, FRP for Dieng and Butler. Fight for playoff, retool next summer.

[Domejandro]

To be honest, I still don't get why people are so bitter at the idea of Glen Taylor overseeing things; there is this attitude that he is going to rush, but he has continually shown in trade negotiations that he is willing to be patient (remember back to him and Flip throughout the Kevin Love trade, that was a very prolonged negotiation).

[minimus]

To be honest, I still don't get why people are so bitter at the idea of Glen Taylor overseeing things; there is this attitude that he is going to rush, but he has continually shown in trade negotiations that he is willing to be patient (remember back to him and Flip throughout the Kevin Love trade, that was a very prolonged negotiation).

It is still a very weird solution to a very weird situation. But I think we dont have another choice.

P.S. It will be very interesting to see how Butler will play this year. On one hand he needs to play 100% to show that he is top15 player. On another hand he needs to avoid injuries at all costs, but based on his playing style it will be difficult to play hard and be safe. I wonder if that variant with 5 years 145, starting this year was a solution for both sides and the question was the money in contract... I mean could it be done with something like 125mil for 5yrs, startng this year?

[Klomp]

My biggest question is whether the Wolves will start the clock on Butler. So far they've used the justification that he's rehabbing his hand, but that was a thin excuse at best and is likely not sustainable. If the Wolves tell Butler he has to report it starts a 30 day countdown, which means if Butler is still sitting out at the end of the 30 days he loses the ability to be a fee agent next off-season. I'm really curious to see how Thibs will play this over the next week.

There's nothing allowing this in the CBA, as far as I can tell. Closest I can find is about the Fitness to Play Panel, something I know and understand very little about.

[AirP.]

When I wrote that I was more referring to the last 5 minutes of a game. Thats when the usage for KAt went down when it matters most. I saw a great article this but can't remember where I saw it. It was a big indictment on Thibs as he's calling the plays. I'll look for the piece.

Yeah, I couldn't find late game data. I do know that the last 2 years in Chicago Butler was pretty incredible in late game situations, last year was vastly different, he wasn't nearly as good, in fact bad. So, he does have a history of doing much better in late game situations then he showed last year, even with lesser teammates.

Well, there is something to go off of, 82games.com clutch stats I guess but they show eFG% instead of TS% which basically ignores the FTs when trying to decide on how efficient of a scorer they were(I'd rather see points per possession though). For as bad as Butler shot from the field, he seems to actually made up a lot of it at the free throw line, averaging 17.4 FTM per 48 minutes

From last year Butler

http://www.82games.com/1718/17MIN8.HTM#clutch
Towns
http://www.82games.com/1718/17MIN14.HTM#clutch
Wiggins
http://www.82games.com/1718/17MIN10.HTM#clutch


This is why Thibs decided to go to Butler, his previous year in Chicago, he was just an absolute monster in the clutch.
http://www.82games.com/1617/16CHI10.HTM#clutch

Actually, nba.com has "clutch" stats, not sure what they define as clutch but they have TS% and USG% in there too.
https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TS_PCT&dir=-1&TeamID=1610612750

Saw this too, clicking on the + button shows their history in the clutch, Butler was definitely down from the last 2 years.
http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/

[KGdaBom]

I wanted Murray for sure in the draft but I was a but biased. I didn't know about anyone else and I saw Murray play for team Canada before his freshman year in college. His play for team Canada as a highschool kid blew me away so I got on his bandwagon just based off of that lol.

I saw that too and I felt the same way. Total no-brainer on taking him but Thibs ignoring where the game is evolving, took a Derek Rose like PG instead.

Dunn was the consensus best pick. Most people thought we got a steal.

[KGdaBom]

It is not trusted resource, but if it is true then we can imagine how bad are offers for Butler:

I know that the Wolves called the Bucks and asked for Khris Middleton, and that was rejected. I also know that the Bucks are open to moving Malcolm Brogdon, and Eric Bledsoe and his expiring $15 million contract are enticing to many teams.

But would the Bucks shake up their roster for a rental?

Especially a 30-year-old rental who has had two knee surgeries, wants a max contract and has become an instant pariah?

Doesn’t pass the “it makes sense” smell test.

https://www.getmoresports.com/jimmy-butler-trade-talks-show-hazards-sportswriting-profession/

So definetely Thibs and Butler saved this franchise.

You're coming around.