Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[Loyal[]Wolf]

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I just find it funny why JB is still in town, and why he is using the facilities. That has to be odd for some of the Wolves staff.

Lol, probably because Butler will return to team after they get back from LA.

[AirP.]

Defense is what this team needs, Okogie on that side of the ball could be huge for this franchise.

I will point this out again... Butler, Gibson and Teague all had their worst drtg last year in Minnesota, that has to be a huge indication that the other guys aren't pulling their weight, both starters and the bench(the bench was just horrible last year).

I think it is also true that disconnection and bad chemistry in offense leads to bad defense. At least that was my experience when I played basketball. It is not about scoring or creating "equal opportunities", you can just moving the ball, make everyone touch the ball, settings screens/back screens. So ISO ball hurts both defense and offense. But that is my opinion.

I get that's your opinion but that doesn't mean it's true, I do think it's more true for less professional players which younger players tend to be. Houston and OKC had the highest frequency of ISO and both were in the top 10 in DRTG. Minnesota was at 8.7% ISO and Houston was nearly double that.

https://stats.nba.com/teams/isolation/?sort=Time&dir=1

[AirP.]

Lol, probably because Butler will return to team after they get back from LA.

Even if Minnesota decides to trade Butler, him coming back to the team and playing can only help them in negotiations. If he were to stay, win 50+ games it would put Taylor on the hot seat to retain Butler by offering more financially then other teams. This is what I believe Thibs' plan is and actually, this would be the best case scenario for the franchise. Even if there was no problems and Minnesota wanted to trade him, they wouldn't get much for him with 1 year left without a wink he'd sign long term with that team.

Anything Minnesota gets for Butler will more then likely not be enough to stop them from starting a new streak of missed playoffs in the brutal West.

[KGdaBom]

what do you guys think of this trade? http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y7pep6we

I like it. Although I preferr resign Tyus and get FRP instead of Shai. Is Shai a really good prospect?

Yeah, there's speculation that the Clippers would not want to give him up. I think Shai would be a really good fit with Wiggins, Okogie and Towns... I like Tyus Jones a lot, but we don't know if we can even afford him next offseason, so sending him to the Clippers as a good asset may help seal the trade

SGA is considered a very good prospect. I would possibly do that trade. Two problems I see. Would the Wolves be willing to give Harris a 4 year 100 Million deal? That's probably what it would take to keep him. The other is would the clippers have cap space to add Kawhi Leonard next year if they take on all this salary? I think getting both Kawhi and Butler is the motivation behind getting butler.

[TaylorTag]

I like it. Although I preferr resign Tyus and get FRP instead of Shai. Is Shai a really good prospect?

Yeah, there's speculation that the Clippers would not want to give him up. I think Shai would be a really good fit with Wiggins, Okogie and Towns... I like Tyus Jones a lot, but we don't know if we can even afford him next offseason, so sending him to the Clippers as a good asset may help seal the trade

SGA is considered a very good prospect. I would possibly do that trade. Two problems I see. Would the Wolves be willing to give Harris a 4 year 100 Million deal? That's probably what it would take to keep him. The other is would the clippers have cap space to add Kawhi Leonard next year if they take on all this salary? I think getting both Kawhi and Butler is the motivation behind getting butler.

Honestly, not sure if resigning Harris is a big priority if they can get a prospect like Shai next to Wiggins, KAT and Okogie.

As far as the Clippers, I get your point. But if the Clippers miss out on the Kawhi sweepstakes and they didn't trade for Butler, then they are left with nothing.. The Clippers could always try to move Dieng next offseason if their cap space becomes a problem

[Howard Cosell]

Miami Heat are caving.

If I’m wrong about my following statement yours truly won’t be coming back to this board until January 2nd, 2019.

Miami Heat will trade Richardson to Twolves by midnight tonight...central standard time.

You are all welcome.

[Neeva]

Richardson and what else?

Miami Heat are caving.

If I’m wrong about my following statement yours truly won’t be coming back to this board until January 2nd, 2019.

Miami Heat will trade Richardson to Twolves by midnight tonight...central standard time.

You are all welcome.

[urinesane]

I think they should wait on a trade until during the season. Remember when everyone was saying that they'd lose Love for nothing if they didn't take a $hitty deal?

Yes, the Love situation had some things come together, but they wouldn't have come together if the Wolves had taken a knee jerk deal out of fear. During the season a lot of things can happen and different teams will have more fluid situations to deal with. If Jimmy refuses to do his job, cool, we basically own him and his future in the NBA (which means a team would have to work out a better deal with us to allow Jimmy to leave if he wants to play in the NBA again).

There's no real pressure on the Wolves to take a $hitty deal to placate a disgruntled Butler and the people who are buying into it should probably never play poker. Call his bluff and see if he wants to jeopardize his NBA future, while waiting for a better deal to materialize.

Oh no! They might get "nothing" (20 mil in cap space isn't nothing), and I guarantee a better deal will be available during the season or in the offseason when we basically own him (if he refuses to play) or would be smart to do at least a S&T to get a better contract.

[Loyal[]Wolf]

Lol, probably because Butler will return to team after they get back from LA.

Even if Minnesota decides to trade Butler, him coming back to the team and playing can only help them in negotiations. If he were to stay, win 50+ games it would put Taylor on the hot seat to retain Butler by offering more financially then other teams. This is what I believe Thibs' plan is and actually, this would be the best case scenario for the franchise. Even if there was no problems and Minnesota wanted to trade him, they wouldn't get much for him with 1 year left without a wink he'd sign long term with that team.

Anything Minnesota gets for Butler will more then likely not be enough to stop them from starting a new streak of missed playoffs in the brutal West.

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[AirP.]

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Now, can the reporters go to Glen Taylor and ask if he'd use his financial advantage next offseason to retain Butler? Taylor couldn't shut his mouth last year saying he had a max contract for Wiggins to sign(then waited nearly 2 months for Wiggins to finally sign it), but with Butler... nothing, which is odd because the rumor is about money which Taylor controls. Does anyone think Thibs wouldn't give Butler the money to retain him?

[Rashodamus]

Lol, probably because Butler will return to team after they get back from LA.

Even if Minnesota decides to trade Butler, him coming back to the team and playing can only help them in negotiations. If he were to stay, win 50+ games it would put Taylor on the hot seat to retain Butler by offering more financially then other teams. This is what I believe Thibs' plan is and actually, this would be the best case scenario for the franchise. Even if there was no problems and Minnesota wanted to trade him, they wouldn't get much for him with 1 year left without a wink he'd sign long term with that team.

Anything Minnesota gets for Butler will more then likely not be enough to stop them from starting a new streak of missed playoffs in the brutal West.

I disagree.

I think the best thing for the franchise going forward would be to cut all ties to the Thibs regime immediately and eat the loss on Butler. I think its absolutely destructive to the point of sadism to want to try to "make this work", its making things worse and prolonging the inevitable. I would literally rather cut Butler and fire Thibs, as a purely basketball decision, than have them near the team this season. I mean that legitimately, they are both cancer to the future of this team and the sooner we can be rid of them the sooner we can have a future again.

Butler doesnt want to be here, Towns and Wiggins dont want him here, its that easy really. Thibs is a dead man walking, everybody knows it. Until those issues are addressed the wolves have no future, they only have those inevitable actions looming and preventing anything else.

[Sugarless]

I think the Wolves have lost a great opportunity by waiting so long before accepting JB won't be playing in Minnesota beyond next spring, if at all. If reports that Butler wanted out back in July were true, they should have made a move then and taken advantage of a more open market. And even if they weren't 100% accurate, you had to see it coming. Now not only there are less options on the table with almost every team operating above the cap, they also have to deal with the urgency of not going into the season in this state. And it's just gonna get worse with every passing week and teams shifting their sights to the regular season and the trade deadline or next summer's free agency.

Minnesota should be smart about this and understand that they're going to lose Butler for nothing and still be hamstrung financially next summer. If they can use Butler's trade to get rid of Gorgui and get an upgrade at PG such as Dragic, or just another average PG like Teague with a cheaper contract, they should absolutely do it, and the sooner the better. I don't care if there's not some great talent coming back in the trade (which isn't happening anyway), that doesn't mean you have to come out empty-handed. Clear the air in the locker room and give the team a chance to jell and fight for the playoffs while improving your salary situation and giving guys like Wiggins and KAT more room to improve. You never know how the season might turn out, and what options you may have next summer with a smaller payroll and a different look on some players.

I'd rather have one year of Butler with the chance of resigning him next year than accept some crappy offer like you are suggesting. Butler says he wants to be traded, but my understanding is that whoever has his Bird rights next year can sign him for 49 million more than any other team. I'm totally fine with us doing that and I really doubt he's going to flush $49 million down the toilet. He's BLUFFING.

There are two key points here:

- First, you keep trusting Butler will just take the biggest offer and re-sign here. I don't, not at all. I don't think those $49M will make Butler stay in a place where he clearly doesn't want to be, and much less commit himself to 5 years in such place. NBA players -and most notably NBA stars-, are doing that less and less often these days, and when in doubt they're turning down longer deals in favor of shorter, more flexible ones. And I don't think Butler is going to be the exception with the teams that are gonna be flush with money next summer, especially given his personality and how open he's been about not wanting to be here after just one season. So, no, even if it exists (you can never say never) I wouldn't take "a chance" at having him re-sign for a huge deal over a genuine trade that cleared the air in the locker room (maybe even the franchise) and allowed the team to regain flexibility. Those are clear positives and I would take them any day of the week over a disgruntled player who's had trouble with some of his teammates in consecutive seasons, in two different cities.

- Secondly, I wouldn't pay a 30 year old Jimmy Butler (at the start of next season) 190 million and be stuck with his diva personality, his bad mood and his 15 games per year lost to injury until he's about to turn 35 and you're paying him well above 40 million. Less so when you just extended Wiggins and KAT in consecutive summers for what could end up being a combined $340M, in addition to the fact that those players can't coexist and that their playing styles are not even a great match to begin with. Simply put, KAT is not getting the best he can be with Butler on the team. Wiggins is straight out worse than he was, to the point he's become a burden both financially and on the floor. And Butler is not worth sacrificing any chance at improving your roster via trade / signing, plus another few years with a messy situation in the locker room, and a limited ceiling as a franchise. The Wolves are not becoming a contender like many fans here expect with a Wiggins - Butler - KAT trio, and at 190M he's just not worth it.

[Nick K]

When I wrote that I was more referring to the last 5 minutes of a game. Thats when the usage for KAt went down when it matters most. I saw a great article this but can't remember where I saw it. It was a big indictment on Thibs as he's calling the plays. I'll look for the piece.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2796770-clutch-moments-defined-jimmy-butler-and-karl-anthony-towns-relationship

One of many articles.

1) Butler is not as good as he was in clutch
2) He does not pass the ball to KAT

Hey Minimus Thanks a lot. That's the article I was referring to. It looks like Jimmy is the one with a chip on his shoulder with KAT. We don't need any of that here. That was a most revealing piece. How many losses did that contribute to? We lost something like 12 games last year by 3 points or less.

[Nick K]

When I wrote that I was more referring to the last 5 minutes of a game. Thats when the usage for KAt went down when it matters most. I saw a great article this but can't remember where I saw it. It was a big indictment on Thibs as he's calling the plays. I'll look for the piece.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2796770-clutch-moments-defined-jimmy-butler-and-karl-anthony-towns-relationship

One of many articles.

1) Butler is not as good as he was in clutch
2) He does not pass the ball to KAT

He must have been pretty clutch. We won 16 more games.

So Butler gets credit for all 16 games of improvement and no one else does? Sounds pretty silly to me.

[Nick K]

Defense is what this team needs, Okogie on that side of the ball could be huge for this franchise.

I will point this out again... Butler, Gibson and Teague all had their worst drtg last year in Minnesota, that has to be a huge indication that the other guys aren't pulling their weight, both starters and the bench(the bench was just horrible last year).

I think it is also true that disconnection and bad chemistry in offense leads to bad defense. At least that was my experience when I played basketball. It is not about scoring or creating "equal opportunities", you can just moving the ball, make everyone touch the ball, settings screens/back screens. So ISO ball hurts both defense and offense. But that is my opinion.

I couldn't agree more. In response to your next post, I'd hate to give up Tyus but Shay is a very, very good prospect.

[AirP.]

I disagree.

I think the best thing for the franchise going forward would be to cut all ties to the Thibs regime immediately and eat the loss on Butler. I think its absolutely destructive to the point of sadism to want to try to "make this work", its making things worse and prolonging the inevitable. I would literally rather cut Butler and fire Thibs, as a purely basketball decision, than have them near the team this season. I mean that legitimately, they are both cancer to the future of this team and the sooner we can be rid of them the sooner we can have a future again.

Butler doesnt want to be here, Towns and Wiggins dont want him here, its that easy really. Thibs is a dead man walking, everybody knows it. Until those issues are addressed the wolves have no future, they only have those inevitable actions looming and preventing anything else.

Well, congrats on starting your new streak of missed playoffs, you still have the same owner. He's the one who went through the media saying he had a max for Wiggins to sign then a year later have an all-nba player ask for a trade citing money when the Timberwolves have the financial advantage at retaining him. Almost sounds as if the owner has indicated to Butler's people that he isn't willing to use that advantage. I think we all know Thibs would and with that, why this franchise has been bad for nearly 1 1/2 decades till Thibs showed up.

[Rashodamus]

Well, congrats on starting your new streak of missed playoffs, you still have the same owner. He's the one who went through the media saying he had a max for Wiggins to sign then a year later have an all-nba player ask for a trade citing money when the Timberwolves have the financial advantage at retaining him. Almost sounds as if the owner has indicated to Butler's people that he isn't willing to use that advantage. I think we all know Thibs would and with that, why this franchise has been bad for nearly 1 1/2 decades till Thibs showed up.

Sure, maybe we miss the playoffs, but what did our playoff beatdown last season accomplish? Quit acting like it was some blessing, in tangible terms it cost us the 14th pick in exchange for 5 mostly embarrassing games and the ability to pathetically say "we made the playoffs!" with some pride.

The same owner? Im so tired of this. After watching wolves fans mindlessly and almost 100% unanimously praise him for the Thibs hiring, now its another strike against Taylor.

Butler was offered the most he could be offered at the time and I havent heard anything to suggest he wasnt going to get the max next season. The only thing we have heard about this being about money is from Jimmys camp after he demanded a trade a week before training camp and made the coach fly to him to do so. Basically is likely BS to cover for him, unless you have anything indicating Taylor wouldnt pay him.

Adelman was 10 times the coach Thibs is and got far more out of far less. Thibs was handed the best young roster in the NBA at the time, with one of the best cap situations and a great crop of similarly aged young assets. Any clown could have traded away capspace and youth for win now pieces to put next to Towns and made the playoffs, this was no accomplishment ffs. Our cupboards were extremely full, we had a lot of attractive assets outside of our HOF caliber ROY #1 overall pick center. Emptying out the cupboards to transform the team from one of the top 3 youngest to top 3 oldest in a year, to go from some of the most capspace to against the cap for the likes of Gibson/Teague...this is not something which should be thought of as an accomplishment.

The reality is where we sit right now, is worse than if we wouldnt have hired Thibs and traded for Butler. If we would have just held the course with no major changes we would currently be sitting with:

Rubio/Lavine/Wiggins/Markkanen/Towns/Dunn/Tyus/Dieng/2018 #14 pick

Or we could have used our assets in a long term way, like taking the grizzlies up on Parsons to nab their #4 as was rumored etc. Or numerous other deals where we facilitate teams cap needs for picks/youth.

I would take that set of assets and cap situation going into this season over our actual situation 10/10. Which team wins more games this year, that squad or what we will actually end up with?

[Dewey]

I have no sense of urgency to "just move Butler and settle for the best package" so we can move on. If we like a package great, but no settling is necessary. As they say, business is business and making bad deals is NOT good business. if outsiders/writers want to look down on us because we wont make a bad deal so be it.

[Slim Tubby]

I have no sense of urgency to "just move Butler and settle for the best package" so we can move on. If we like a package great, but no settling is necessary. As they say, business is business and making bad deals is NOT good business. if outsiders/writers want to look down on us because we wont make a bad deal so be it.

My thoughts exactly, Dewey. Who gives a flying **** what fans and beat writers from other teams think. Riley has created a "Cap Hell" saturated with marginal players on terrible deals and some of their self-absorbed, delusional fans feel we should be obligated to help bail them out by accepting a **** deal??? Get the **** out of here with that crap...and Jimmy...go to your room and pout about the $50M you're about to piss down your leg.

[AirP.]

Sure, maybe we miss the playoffs, but what did our playoff beatdown last season accomplish? Quit acting like it was some blessing, in tangible terms it cost us the 14th pick in exchange for 5 mostly embarrassing games and the ability to pathetically say "we made the playoffs!" with some pride.

You have to learn how to play in the playoffs, it's more pressure, teams get to gameplan better against you and they're typically more physical, until you go through that you don't completely get it. For years I've heard players talk about the process of having success in the playoffs.

Actually, I think it was a good sign that Minnesota in their first year to the playoffs for some key players that they were able to win a game against a team that won 65 games and almost knocked out one of the greatest teams of all time(GS). I actually expected a sweep.

The same owner? Im so tired of this. After watching wolves fans mindlessly and almost 100% unanimously praise him for the Thibs hiring, now its another strike against Taylor.

It was a good hire but it wasn't because he picked him, it was because he didn't pick him, he went through a consultant to hire him. Also, Thibs didn't ask for POBO, it was offered to him which also bumped up his pay so he took it. The problems came when Taylor did insert himself into the basketball operations, you know like some major decisions like not allowing Thibodeau to trade Wiggins last summer. Which was either for a smaller package for Butler(just Wiggins and Dunn, while keeping LaVine and drafting Markkanen) or in a package for K.Irving. It's decisions like this that have kept Minnesota from being able to be as good as they could.
This isn't even about Thibs anymore, it's about Taylor, until he just doesn't have any input to his FO or he gets a FO who can manipulate him, it's not going to work in Minnesota with Glen Taylor as the owner. Owners matter, Minnesota made the playoffs because he hired someone he didn't pick...

I'd be more tired being a bad team, but hey, that's me.

@DWolfsonKSTP: Tom Thibodeau was open to trading Andrew Wiggins last summer, but Glen Taylor stepped in and vetoed the idea.

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Butler was offered the most he could be offered at the time and I havent heard anything to suggest he wasnt going to get the max next season. The only thing we have heard about this being about money is from Jimmys camp after he demanded a trade a week before training camp and made the coach fly to him to do so. Basically is likely BS to cover for him, unless you have anything indicating Taylor wouldnt pay him.

If it's about money then it's simple, Taylor has the financial advantage to retain Butler. Why not go through the media like he did last year saying he's open to giving Butler the max to shut down that excuse instead of just getting rid of any leverage you have in making a trade saying you can bypass the FO and bring the owner a good deal. That's a HORRIBLE move by an owner.

Adelman was 10 times the coach Thibs is and got far more out of far less. Thibs was handed the best young roster in the NBA at the time, with one of the best cap situations and a great crop of similarly aged young assets. Any clown could have traded away capspace and youth for win now pieces to put next to Towns and made the playoffs, this was no accomplishment ffs. Our cupboards were extremely full, we had a lot of attractive assets outside of our HOF caliber ROY #1 overall pick center. Emptying out the cupboards to transform the team from one of the top 3 youngest to top 3 oldest in a year, to go from some of the most capspace to against the cap for the likes of Gibson/Teague...this is not something which should be thought of as an accomplishment.

Thibs was handed a great offensively, horrible defensively young roster. If any "clown " could have done it, that's once again another strike against the owner. Everyone knows what Thibs is like and his style yet your owner made the hire.

The reality is where we sit right now, is worse than if we wouldnt have hired Thibs and traded for Butler. If we would have just held the course with no major changes we would currently be sitting with:

Rubio/Lavine/Wiggins/Markkanen/Towns/Dunn/Tyus/Dieng/2018 #14 pick

Or we could have used our assets in a long term way, like taking the grizzlies up on Parsons to nab their #4 as was rumored etc. Or numerous other deals where we facilitate teams cap needs for picks/youth.

Since everyone thought Dieng was a good contract at the time, I'd expect it still would have been done or somewhere near those numbers...
Rubio 15 million, LaVine 20 million, Wiggins 25 million, Dieng 15 million, Towns 8.
So... 5 players 83 million with a high probability of not being .500 last year or the upcoming year.
Next season... new contract for Rubio, maxed out Towns, the future getting very very dark for the franchise.

On Memphis, you wouldn't have had the cap space to take Parsons.

I would take that set of assets and cap situation going into this season over our actual situation 10/10. Which team wins more games this year, that squad or what we will actually end up with?

I wouldn't of, the biggest mistake by ownership was allowing Butler to be traded for WITHOUT moving Wiggins. I was yelling this last summer yet I kept hearing how Wiggins was a vastly superior player then Butler, yeah no. Look at how Wiggins was utilized, does that look like a coach who wanted to max Wiggins out? Not to mention Wiggins being upset from going from being the face of the franchise, who just had the 2nd most FGA in the NBA to 3rd or 4th wheel.

Minnesota needs a new owner because these kinds of things are going to continue to happen while Taylor is in charge. I get Thibs isn't everyone's cup of tea but I actually believe it's hard to win in the NBA and if you want to win you have to put in the work and effort to be successful as a team. I don't see that effort on the court from some of Minnesota's key players.