Official Speculation Thread ‘17-18’: XVIII: The Long Wait Continues

[KillMonger]

Man we got to get a point guard in here. DJ is alright but we need a player that can consistently set the table for B.I.G and DJ ain't it. Point guard by committee it is i guess

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[MagicStarwipe]

The guy had 17 shots (8 more than anybody else not named Fournier) and went -14. Not sure if people actually watched the game or not. He was okay, that's not what people are really debating.

The point isn't if he isn't capable of doing that, he clearly is. It's that people are tired of it and we're saying that those shots going elsewhere doesn't make our offense suddenly worse because the stats I've posted in the gamethread show just how inefficient he is, and it's not like we have a noteworthy offense to begin with. People are not comprehending that Vucevic's offense is not of great value besides his passing ability.

And I'm not arguing that we have a great number of options here, nor is it Vucevic's fault that coaches draw up the gameplan like this and that the front office haven't moved him. It's a general frustration that we won't even allow players to become more prevalent options without Vucevic still taking 14-16 shots a game because we refuse to move him.

People were making the same arguments with Oladipo here. He was trending DOWN in field goal attempts and people sort of just assumed that he was what he was, which is why the majority of us were only annoyed/bothered when he was traded instead of downright rioting if we knew what he would turn into with more experience and freedom. You never know what you have in your players unless you give them more opportunity and let them try to prove themselves in a role. Vucevic has had his chances here as a number one option, and it clearly isn't conducive to winning. The blame isn't solely on him, obviously. It's just that he's not the answer, and we may not have ANY answers, but isn't it smarter to see if we do rather than saying "lol, Gordon/Isaac/Bamba/etc isn't the answer on offense" and do the same thing again and again? If this was only his first/second/third year, we wouldn't be having this discussion.. but it's his 7th in the same role.

The pecking order is determined in practice, by observing the players and seeing what they’re good and bad at. Oladipo wasn’t a star who never got a fair shot here; he made bad decisions on offense, holding the ball and disrupting the offensive flow. Gordon will probably become our primary scorer either this year or next year, because of the offensive improvements he’s made and continues to make. He’ll get those shots if he earns them. That’s how coaching staffs work (assuming they’re behaving professionally).

By coaching staffs that were all horrible and got canned within 2 seasons. I wouldn't put much weight in any of the decisions they made about any of our players.

[PrimeThyme]

The guy had 17 shots (8 more than anybody else not named Fournier) and went -14. Not sure if people actually watched the game or not. He was okay, that's not what people are really debating.

The point isn't if he isn't capable of doing that, he clearly is. It's that people are tired of it and we're saying that those shots going elsewhere doesn't make our offense suddenly worse because the stats I've posted in the gamethread show just how inefficient he is, and it's not like we have a noteworthy offense to begin with. People are not comprehending that Vucevic's offense is not of great value besides his passing ability.

And I'm not arguing that we have a great number of options here, nor is it Vucevic's fault that coaches draw up the gameplan like this and that the front office haven't moved him. It's a general frustration that we won't even allow players to become more prevalent options without Vucevic still taking 14-16 shots a game because we refuse to move him.

People were making the same arguments with Oladipo here. He was trending DOWN in field goal attempts and people sort of just assumed that he was what he was, which is why the majority of us were only annoyed/bothered when he was traded instead of downright rioting if we knew what he would turn into with more experience and freedom. You never know what you have in your players unless you give them more opportunity and let them try to prove themselves in a role. Vucevic has had his chances here as a number one option, and it clearly isn't conducive to winning. The blame isn't solely on him, obviously. It's just that he's not the answer, and we may not have ANY answers, but isn't it smarter to see if we do rather than saying "lol, Gordon/Isaac/Bamba/etc isn't the answer on offense" and do the same thing again and again? If this was only his first/second/third year, we wouldn't be having this discussion.. but it's his 7th in the same role.

Here is how the first 5 minutes of the game went the other night:

11:23-Nikola Vucevic personal foul 0 - 0
10:49-Evan Fournier misses 26-foot three point jumper 0 - 2
10:34-Jonathan Isaac makes 2-foot dunk (Aaron Gordon assists) 2 - 2
10:05-Evan Fournier misses 23-foot three point jumper 2 - 4
9:18- Evan Fournier out of bounds bad pass turnover 2 - 6
8:44- Nikola Vucevic misses 22-foot pullup jump shot 2 - 8
8:13-Evan Fournier misses 20-foot pullup jump shot 2 - 10
7:49-Nikola Vucevic misses layup 2 - 10

Nobody else even attempted a jump shot until the 6-minute mark && that jump shot was followed by 3 more Vuc shot attempts until he checked out at the 4-minute mark. Vuc had 17 shot attempts last night (nearly doubling AG's) all while getting torched on defense. Evan was second with 11 shot attempts. Once again, we are going to trot Vuc and Evan out on the court without any real playmaker and let them play their two-man game and Vuc be the top option (Vuc averaged more FGA in the games he played with AG last year especially at the beginning when everyone was healthy, AG's FGA went up and he became the Fga leader when he was playing with D-league lineups and Vuc was hurt). If that is not the definition of insanity I dont know what is. Its not even worth going at it with Vuc defenders anymore. People wonder why this organization is a living hell for player development yet will get on here and support Vuc still being on our team for the 6th straight year as the focal point of the offense.

[DiplomaticMagic]

Vuc giving the usual effort on the box out.

How does coach not see this?? Clifford even praised Vuc's rebounding in post game

[SOUL]

Melo apologized to the Rockets bench for shooting (and making) a midrange jumper earlier, our offense runs through that as a bread and butter option.

[fendilim]

Melo apologized to the Rockets bench for shooting (and making) a midrange jumper earlier, our offense runs through that as a bread and butter option.

So do you suggest to just shoot threes and inside shots?

[VFX]

Melo apologized to the Rockets bench for shooting (and making) a midrange jumper earlier, our offense runs through that as a bread and butter option.

So do you suggest to just shoot threes and inside shots?

Probably just pointing out how inefficient and “dark ages” Orlando’s offense is run compared to successful teams currently in the nba.

[SOUL]

Melo apologized to the Rockets bench for shooting (and making) a midrange jumper earlier, our offense runs through that as a bread and butter option.

So do you suggest to just shoot threes and inside shots?

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

[drsd]

This box-out failure clearly lies with Gordon in this video. Vučević was on the near perimeter guarding a player. Gordon was in the post and it was his job to defend the rim.

But these errors are why there is a pre-season. I am sure Vučevic and Gordon have watched that tap more than we have talked about it.
..

[SOUL]

This box-out failure clearly lies with Gordon in this video. Vučević was on the near perimeter guarding a player. Gordon was in the post and it was his job to defend the rim.

Huh?

Vucevic and Gordon were both guarding perimeter for a split second, Gordon ran out to cover Simmons who might have gotten the ball back. Vucevic had like 2-3 seconds to box out Embiid and didn't.

[drsd]

Vucevic and Gordon were both guarding perimeter for a split second, Gordon ran out to cover Simmons who might have gotten the ball back. Vucevic had like 2-3 seconds to box out Embiid and didn't.

To quote me: " I am sure Vučevic and Gordon have watched that tape more than we have talked about it."


These bone-head plays need to stop if the Magic is to take a step towards actual winning.


..

[pepe1991]

Vuc giving the usual effort on the box out.

How does coach not see this?? Clifford even praised Vuc's rebounding in post game

How does Simmons runs through 5 players nobody guards him, passes for open jumper and nobody boxes out ?
All around epic effort in one possession.

[fendilim]

Melo apologized to the Rockets bench for shooting (and making) a midrange jumper earlier, our offense runs through that as a bread and butter option.

So do you suggest to just shoot threes and inside shots?

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

[pepe1991]

So do you suggest to just shoot threes and inside shots?

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

Nothing wrong with some mid range shot from time to time and there is no need to apologize for shooting, i thought Melo was just making fun of it, but there is no much reason why team like Magic should shoot lot of them. They are low efficiency shots overall.

[j-ragg]

So do you suggest to just shoot threes and inside shots?

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

Imo getting players to take layups and threes is putting players in a position to succeed.

[Blue_and_Whte]

This box-out failure clearly lies with Gordon in this video. Vučević was on the near perimeter guarding a player. Gordon was in the post and it was his job to defend the rim.

Huh?

Vucevic and Gordon were both guarding perimeter for a split second, Gordon ran out to cover Simmons who might have gotten the ball back. Vucevic had like 2-3 seconds to box out Embiid and didn't.

This one bad play is from a preseason game right? And not game 7 of the NBA finals.

Also ill raise you one "huh?". Gordon wasnt running out to guard anyone least of all Simmons, he was caught in no mans land between DJ and JI as simmons sidestepped back to the top if the key...unguarded.
Vuc clearly didnt make proper contact with Embiid, and AG was doing nothing. Really that whole sequence was a team wide defensive breakdown, but of course guess who gets the blame.

While this isnt the case with your particukzr post, Like I said earlier people are likely to keep bitching and magnify mistakes while ignoring all the positives of players they dont like then they'll obviously incessantly complain about it like little girls.

If anyone wonders why the quality of the game threads has gone down you can pretty much narrow it down to a handful of people.

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[Blue_and_Whte]

Yes. The league average of a mid-range shot is 40%.

Unless you're the Warriors who make an astronomically high number of them (48%) and can get value out of it. But they still only attempt an average number of them.

i see. So we should be playing the popular brand of basketball, rather than putting our players in a position to succeed? Ok.

Imo getting players to take layups and threes is putting players in a position to succeed.

Wow...incorrect. You put players in a position to succeed when you play them to their strengths.

Putting a guy that cant shoot threes in a position to shoot threes isnt putting him in a position to succeed.

Using that logic though i fully expect you to be equally upset when/if Isaac/Bamba/AG take alot of midrange shots. I won't hold my breath. I bet people will love JI's pull up fade away midrange shot regardless of the percentages. As long as it look pretty and its a different name then its fine.

Being able to hit a three in the modern nba is important but that and layups arent the only shots players should take. Mid range shots are fine if you hit them at a decent clip.

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[Raider_MXD]

Imo getting players to take layups and threes is putting players in a position to succeed.

Shooting threes is pointless if you can't make them

[OrlandoNed]

Imo getting players to take layups and threes is putting players in a position to succeed.

Shooting threes is pointless if you can't make them

And that's why you throw away non-bigs who can't make 3s unless they bring something special to the table.

[j-ragg]

This box-out failure clearly lies with Gordon in this video. Vučević was on the near perimeter guarding a player. Gordon was in the post and it was his job to defend the rim.

Huh?

Vucevic and Gordon were both guarding perimeter for a split second, Gordon ran out to cover Simmons who might have gotten the ball back. Vucevic had like 2-3 seconds to box out Embiid and didn't.

This one bad play is from a preseason game right? And not game 7 of the NBA finals.

Also ill raise you one "huh?". Gordon wasnt running out to guard anyone least of all Simmons, he was caught in no mans land between DJ and JI as simmons sidestepped back to the top if the key...unguarded.
Vuc clearly didnt make proper contact with Embiid, and AG was doing nothing. Really that whole sequence was a team wide defensive breakdown, but of course guess who gets the blame.

While this isnt the case with your particukzr post, Like I said earlier people are likely to keep bitching and magnify mistakes while ignoring all the positives of players they dont like then they'll obviously incessantly complain about it like little girls.

If anyone wonders why the quality of the game threads has gone down you can pretty much narrow it down to a handful of people.

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How was Gordon not picking up Simmons?

The quality in game threads has gone down because your guy gets called out all the time for his lazy plays. The fact that you and drsd can even say that play is on anyone besides Vuc is unreal lol. Defend him to the death bro.