2018 Offseason Thread

[slick_watts]

Royce wrote this btw:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24896434/thunder-andre-roberson-miss-two-more-months-knee-setback

He's said to be healing properly from the initial surgery to repair his patellar tendon, but the suture needed to be removed.

I'm not a doctor, but this sounds like the patella injury is healing, but they needed to do something about the stitches they used on him.

I’m wondering if long term this is better for tendon because it will give it additional recovery time that wasn’t going to happen otherwise. I’m just not familiar enough with procedures like this to understand why they needed to do it to remove a suture. Even if it’s below the skin, a two month setback seems excessive. That makes me wonder how much more there is to the story that we don’t know.

additional surgeries is almost always bad news. i don't trust a word royce or anyone else is reporting because they are only regurgitating what the thunder want the public to hear about this.

[Pillendreher]

Royce wrote this btw:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24896434/thunder-andre-roberson-miss-two-more-months-knee-setback



I'm not a doctor, but this sounds like the patella injury is healing, but they needed to do something about the stitches they used on him.

I’m wondering if long term this is better for tendon because it will give it additional recovery time that wasn’t going to happen otherwise. I’m just not familiar enough with procedures like this to understand why they needed to do it to remove a suture. Even if it’s below the skin, a two month setback seems excessive. That makes me wonder how much more there is to the story that we don’t know.

additional surgeries is almost always bad news. i don't trust a word royce or anyone else is reporting because they are only regurgitating what the thunder want the public to hear about this.

That's a fair stance, but at that point you can't trust any franchise about stuff like this.

@Knrstz: Maybe there's a difference between what they use to repair the injury "inside" and how they close up the whole thing on the outside.

[Old Man Game]

Say it aint so. We are so **** now without 'Dre.

Also, what's with the sutures irritating things? Westbrook at that exact issue.

[Pillendreher]

Say it aint so. We are so **** now without 'Dre.

I'm not a Roberson hater by any means, but if this team can't defend at all without him (like last season), something's very wrong with the rest of the squad and the coaching staff. That doesn't mean he isn't one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, but at some point you have to learn how to defend without him. This

http://www.nba.com/article/2018/09/28/one-team-one-stat-oklahoma-city-thunder-andre-roberson-defense

should not be possible unless he's the best defender in league history far and away. I don't expect them to be a Top 3 defense without him, but at least be respectable and don't go from elite to horrible. From 2014 to 2017, Roberson's On/Off DRtG (4500 minutes on, 4500 minutes off) was -4.0 points per 100 possessions per nbawowy. His On/Off DRtG as a part of Westbrook-Adams over the same timespan was -3.9 points per 100 possessions per nbawowy. I think somewhere between 3 and 4 points per 100 poss. (DRPM had him at 3.3, 1.6 and 2.6 over those 3 seasons) is his realistic defensive impact. 11 points per 100 possessions is flat out ridiculous; that's bigger than the difference than the #1 defense last season in Boston and the #30 ranked defense last season in Phoenix in DRtG.

But I too am concerned with our wing rotation going forward. As of right now, they basically have 8 different guys (Schröder, Felton, Abrines, Ferguson, Diallo, TLC, Nader, Burton) to fill ~60 minutes at the 2 and 3 if you say George plays close to 36 a night. Who is going to fill those holes? The pessimist in me would say that out of those 8 guys, more than half probably don't even belong on the court and just one of them each looks like they can penetrate (Schröder) or shoot 3s (Abrines). And it's not like all of them are great defenders either
I fear we might see some crazy **** rotation wise. Like going all in on the Westbrook-Schröder combo. Or trying to play Grant at the 2 and the 3 and just hope it works.

[slick_watts]

should not be possible unless he's the best defender in league history far and away.

it's because his replacements are g-league level. brewer, abrines, huestis, ferguson, felton. these are 9th-10th men at best last year. same reason why russell westbrook +/- in 2016-17 was insane. even though westbrook had a great year and deserved mvp, he had one of the worst backup pg in nba history to compare himself to.

it's possible the thunder could still have a top 10-ish defense by virtue of replacing carmelo anthony with patrick patterson. but like we said last season when andre roberson went down- russell westbrook is going to need to put on his big boy pants because we don't have any other wing on the roster remotely capable of reproducing dre's impact on defense. paul george can't do it on his own.

[G R E Y]

Think the process for becoming a Thunder doc is beating Sam Presti in a game of Operation.

i have to express that this is only my opinion or else people go nuts, but i think it's the rehab timelines and how aggressive the thunder tend to be with them despite public statements to the contrary. as recent as may they were claiming andre roberson was on track for what would have been a historic recovery from this injury for an nba player-- and they went so far as to perform an elective scope to hasten that recovery. does anyone remember kevin durant dragging his leg around for three weeks before anyone thought it was a bad idea?

at this point if you're a player undergoing rehab for a major injury and you are wearing a thunder jersey you had better take out some insurance or something. i just don't understand how anyone who is a fan of this team can't see that there is a recurring problem here, regardless of who you assign blame to.

I don’t think you’re wrong about what you’re saying about the thunder being too agrressive with their rehab but I still don’t think they are alone. The spurs misdiagnosed Kawhi. Danny Green mentioned they didn’t catch a groin tear. John Wall had to have a cleanup procedure mid season after following an earlier surgery iirc. It’s a problem that many players face. The thunder have some black marks for sure. So do others.

To clarify, neither of these is factually correct. Leonard had his own medical team in place from August 8, 2017, and proceeded to get not a second but eighth medical opinion until something of a plausible sounding alternate option could be run with. So not only did his own doctors have far more time treating him, it took him a while to find someone that didn't agree with the Spurs diagnosis, but finally he got an alternative medical pass (which was not as severe as his known chronic condition) to not play despite being cleared for months. Danny flat out refuted on twitter the twisted reports that the Spurs misdiagnosed him. He was diagnosed with a groin pull during the season. He chose to play through it, and by end of season medicals, a tear was diagnosed. His whole point was that he appreciated a more cautious approach in hindsight. He erred on the side of competitive spirit, but should have listened to his body, and the Spurs doctors, who have a long standing reputation for a very conservative time recovery approach. So the situations of the two teams are not comparable.

To the point at hand, if there's a pattern like the one slick_watts alludes to, it's very surprising that, given the results, they're not low-key changing their approach. I don't get how sutures keep someone out for at least another two months, but subsequent scopes give pause for thought to the sutures issue. I didn't realize they've been so seemingly aggressive with AR and other players returning from injury. Seems counter productive in the long run.

[Gooner]

I think OKC should go for Courtney Lee,he would fit you guys perfectly.

[ThunderBolt]

I think OKC should go for Courtney Lee,he would fit you guys perfectly.

That ship sailed when Singler got stretched.

[bondom34]

Not saying anything about Kawhi other than it's really his word vs. the Spurs. And if you trust the Spurs word, you would then I'd think trust a team's word, and in that case trust the Thunder's word. I don't think anything was handled well in the Kawhi situation either, probably by either side.

[Gooner]

I think OKC should go for Courtney Lee,he would fit you guys perfectly.

That ship sailed when Singler got stretched.

What about Korver?He would open up things offensively,that's for sure.

[slick_watts]

Not saying anything about Kawhi other than it's really his word vs. the Spurs. And if you trust the Spurs word, you would then I'd think trust a team's word, and in that case trust the Thunder's word. I don't think anything was handled well in the Kawhi situation either, probably by either side.

like, i can see what you're doing here, but we acknowledge the difference in how teams operate all the time in other contexts. the thunder's track record is as gloomy as it gets, there is plenty of reason to place less trust in their word than other teams when it comes to medical prognoses and timelines and rehab.

[slick_watts]

from the official thunder press release in may, announcing andre roberson's arthroscopic surgery:

He [Roberson] remains on pace to return for the start of the 2018-19 season.

from erik horne's article the day after the press release:

Rather than wait for the swelling to subside, Roberson, the Thunder and doctors elected to have the procedure in order to remain on an aggressive pace in his rehab.

from brett dawson, mid-june:

It's an optimistic outlook, but the one the Thunder is hoping for after Roberson ruptured the patellar tendon in his left knee in January. And Roberson remains on track to be ready for the start of the season.

from brett dawson, this morning:

The Thunder always knew they’d need a stopgap starter while Roberson recovered.

[Pillendreher]

should not be possible unless he's the best defender in league history far and away.

it's because his replacements are g-league level. brewer, abrines, huestis, ferguson, felton. these are 9th-10th men at best last year. same reason why russell westbrook +/- in 2016-17 was insane. even though westbrook had a great year and deserved mvp, he had one of the worst backup pg in nba history to compare himself to.

That's a very good point, but I think the difference is still way too big to make sense like this. There's a difference between not having a single above average offensive player on the floor when Westbrook sits and not being able to defend at all even though Paul George, a premier wing defender, and Steven Adams, a good to very good defensive Center, are still getting their 30+ minutes a night. It's not like I'm looking at On/Off numbers with a bench full of Enes Kanters.

it's possible the thunder could still have a top 10-ish defense by virtue of replacing carmelo anthony with patrick patterson. but like we said last season when andre roberson went down- russell westbrook is going to need to put on his big boy pants because we don't have any other wing on the roster remotely capable of reproducing dre's impact on defense. paul george can't do it on his own.

Yep, I agree. He can't just talk about it, but actually has to give more effort where it's needed.

[bondom34]

Not saying anything about Kawhi other than it's really his word vs. the Spurs. And if you trust the Spurs word, you would then I'd think trust a team's word, and in that case trust the Thunder's word. I don't think anything was handled well in the Kawhi situation either, probably by either side.

like, i can see what you're doing here, but we acknowledge the difference in how teams operate all the time in other contexts. the thunder's track record is as gloomy as it gets, there is plenty of reason to place less trust in their word than other teams when it comes to medical prognoses and timelines and rehab.

We pretty much have a history of one Spurs injury of major consequence. And that was how it was handled.

[slick_watts]

a little birdie informed me that the extent of the procedure performed on andre roberson is essentially re-doing part of the original surgical procedure. removing the sutures and re-attaching the tendon to the anchor on the bone. hence the long rehab period.

[bondom34]

Well, given your sources in the org, I'll wait for the news.

[slick_watts]

Well, given your sources in the org, I'll wait for the news.

they couldn't determine the source of his discomfort, which is why he was 'cut' to begin with. they found the suture issue and repaired it. this is why his recovery period is longer than what a typical scope would be to undergo a similar correction (i.e. westbrook's).

[bondom34]

Well, given your sources in the org, I'll wait for the news.

they couldn't determine the source of his discomfort, which is why he was 'cut' to begin with. they found the suture issue and repaired it. this is why his recovery period is longer than what a typical scope would be to undergo a similar correction (i.e. westbrook's).

I'll wait for the news to break.

[slick_watts]

Well, given your sources in the org, I'll wait for the news.

they couldn't determine the source of his discomfort, which is why he was 'cut' to begin with. they found the suture issue and repaired it. this is why his recovery period is longer than what a typical scope would be to undergo a similar correction (i.e. westbrook's).

I'll wait for the news to break.

i don't care what you do. i'm just sharing the information.

snoopy might have a way to corroborate. i doubt you will hear this from any thunder news man, who are under orders not to discuss these things. don't believe that?

[bondom34]

they couldn't determine the source of his discomfort, which is why he was 'cut' to begin with. they found the suture issue and repaired it. this is why his recovery period is longer than what a typical scope would be to undergo a similar correction (i.e. westbrook's).

I'll wait for the news to break.

i don't care what you do. i'm just sharing the information.

snoopy might have a way to corroborate. i doubt you will hear this from any thunder news man, who are under orders not to discuss these things. don't believe that?

Now that's what I'm talking about.