Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[mplsfonz23]

When I say off the wall, I am not saying unfair. What I am saying they were close to a deal. And where negotiating a small part. As an example Minny may have said ok to two of the player the Heat offerred if they could also include some salary cap relief. Miami may have explored a third team to get that salary cap relief. Then Minnny suddenly ask for JRich, Bam and a FRP that had nothing to do with what they were previously negotiating. Its like going to a Honda car dealership and you see a Accord that you like and you negotiating the interior with the salesman. Then suddenly you say you want a mazda.

You have to remember, you are getting only the MIA side of the story. Thibs and Layden don’t say anything, and have stonewalled reporters here for two years,

and I will also point out that the things you are believing wholeheartedly don’t even corroborate with themselves. Remember, MIA gave their “final offer” a few days ago, and suddenly there was more and more negotiations?

It benefits MIA to try to spin this story that they gave a final offer, then I suppose, they were making progress, and then, out of nowhere, MIN wrecked the deal by asking for more. This sounds like a second attempt to use the media to squeeze MIN, or to get Taylor to intercede.

It’s easy to believe the story that benefits you.

Huh there was never suddenly more to the offer. The JRich, Bam and FRP was the Minny request that threw everything for a loop. It's never been establish who camp is saying what. Miami has been known to never leak. That is the sequence that ESPN and main stream reporters are telling it.

It's been consistent for two weeks that how Minny is conducting these trades has been confusing to teams. And I see why.

And there nothing I said that benefits me or the Heat.

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No disrespect. As A heat fan, we (I) appreciate your input, but we don't OWE you Jimmy Butler. You want him, this is what we asked for. You think it's too much. Period. Now, we can negotiate, but we NEED and WANT JRich as the main piece. Period.
If Riley is NOT going to trade him, then there is NOTHING left to talk about. Good luck next summer. (Cap hell)

[shrink]

If I was modeling this, I would say:

Jimmy is a $1 asset, which is in MIN’s “25% Off” basket ... so his trade value to them is 75 cents.

Richardson is worth 25 cents
Bam is worth 25 cents
Turning Gorgui into expirings is 15 cents
A FRP in the 20’s is worth 15 cents
Winslow is 10 cents, with his impending RFA
Dragic is 5 cents

Jimmy is worth $1 to MIA. Maybe more because they are unlikely to get someone this good for the next two years.

But he’s still worth 75 cents to MIN, either to keep or trade elsewhere. When I hear MIA is only offering Whiteside (-20 cents) or Tyler Johnson (-15 cents) and Dragic and a FRP, that’s insulting. That’s offering a nickel on a guy’s dollar price asset. In fact, initially saying Richardson and Bam are off the table should have put MIA on the back burner, while MIN tried to deal with someone else.

[minimus]

Superstars drive the nba, and determine the course of franchises. A legit superstar is a value contract, limited in size due to that same max deal clause. I would be shocked if Taylor wouldn’t pay Jimmy the max at the end of the season,

Would you offer max to Butler of he gets injured againt this season? Looking at IT4 story I am not so sure

[shrink]

Superstars drive the nba, and determine the course of franchises. A legit superstar is a value contract, limited in size due to that same max deal clause. I would be shocked if Taylor wouldn’t pay Jimmy the max at the end of the season,

Would you offer max to Butler of he gets injured again this season? Looking at IT4 story I am not so sure

It would probably depend on the injury, and whether it was likely to recur.

Jimmy is 29 and has missed a dozen games with injuries his last few years, but people don’t realize that he doesn’t have much wear and tear on his body. He started in the NBA late, and he was getting limited minutes off the bench for his first 1.5 seasons. Jimmy has only played about 15,000 minutes in his career, where comparable 29 year olds like Harden and a Derozan have played 23,000.

Lastly, I know that max contract to Jimmy looks scary, but that is what superstars get paid. Chris Paul is a comparable player, but four years older. He will make $41 mil at 35, and $44 mil at 36. His deal is $160 mil over 4 years).

Superstars determine the course of franchises, but if you want superstar talent, you pay for it.

[minimus]

Superstars drive the nba, and determine the course of franchises. A legit superstar is a value contract, limited in size due to that same max deal clause. I would be shocked if Taylor wouldn’t pay Jimmy the max at the end of the season,

Would you offer max to Butler of he gets injured again this season? Looking at IT4 story I am not so sure

It would probably depend on the injury, and whether it was likely to recur.

Jimmy is 29 and has missed a dozen games with injuries his last few years, but people don’t realize that he doesn’t have much wear and tear on his body. He started in the NBA late, and he was getting limited minutes off the bench for his first 1.5 seasons. Jimmy has only played about 15,000 minutes in his career, where comparable 29 year olds like Harden and a Derozan have played 22,000.

Lastly, I know that max contract to Jimmy looks scary, but that is what superstars get paid. Chris Paul is a comparable player, but four years older. He will make $41 mil at 35, and $44 mil at 36. His deal is $160 mil over 4 years). If you want superstar talent, you pay for it.

Agree. But CP3 is such a foundamental player who relies not only on his athleticism. He is very good shooter, passer and defender. Butler minus athleticism will be completely different player. Just look at his play after that injury last year. He was not as efficient and clutch as he used to be.

As for milleage, I have alreday posted that for players for play in offense AND defense, you should count milleage twice. So Butler has definetely played more that Harden or DeRozan.

[gandlogo]

With Irving saying he's going to be a Celtic long-term (who knows if he actually does next year), I think the Wolves work a deal with the Sixers. The Celtics are the class of the East. Philly isn't too far behind them. Jimmy could be the difference to get them past the Celtics. Further, they have better assets to give up than Miami. Fultz and Covington would work.

[Neeva]

Id prefer fultz and saric

With Irving saying he's going to be a Celtic long-term (who knows if he actually does next year), I think the Wolves work a deal with the Sixers. The Celtics are the class of the East. Philly isn't too far behind them. Jimmy could be the difference to get them past the Celtics. Further, they have better assets to give up than Miami. Fultz and Covington would work.

[minimus]

Id prefer fultz and saric

With Irving saying he's going to be a Celtic long-term (who knows if he actually does next year), I think the Wolves work a deal with the Sixers. The Celtics are the class of the East. Philly isn't too far behind them. Jimmy could be the difference to get them past the Celtics. Further, they have better assets to give up than Miami. Fultz and Covington would work.

Id prefer RoCo and Saric

[Dewey]

If I was modeling this, I would say:

Jimmy is a $1 asset, which is in MIN’s “25% Off” basket ... so his trade value to them is 75 cents.

Richardson is worth 25 cents
Bam is worth 25 cents
Turning Gorgui into expirings is 15 cents
A FRP in the 20’s is worth 15 cents
Winslow is 10 cents, with his impending RFA
Dragic is 5 cents

Jimmy is worth $1 to MIA. Maybe more because they are unlikely to get someone this good for the next two years.

But he’s still worth 75 cents to MIN, either to keep or trade elsewhere. When I hear MIA is only offering Whiteside (-20 cents) or Tyler Johnson (-15 cents) and Dragic and a FRP, that’s insulting. That’s offering a nickel on a guy’s dollar price asset. In fact, initially saying Richardson and Bam are off the table should have put MIA on the back burner, while MIN tried to deal with someone else.

Bottom-line ... I gamble on Butler vs. caving on a mediocre deal.

In other words, put it on Butler and his agent try to press Miami to make the deal. You make your bed - you sleep in it. Butler does not want to play cause it would be insanely awkward to want out and then end up back on the team because no one will pony up....

[old school 34]

This has frustrating & fascinating @ the same time from a negotiations standpoint....& everyone is guessing w/ what's leaked & how you interpret it---but this is where I lean on interpreting some of the stuff so far:

1. Thibs/Layden--don't talk & now that GT has quieted down & has calmed down from panic mode (at least for now)...needs to be remembered in all media reports. for instance--

A) The Simmons report w/ Philly....seems like a pretty convenient leak from Philly's side to talk their fanbase down--if ultimately, they decided that they're aren't comfortable w/ JB being the FA that they want because of his history of not getting along w/ the young guys (fair decision on their part & easy leak to not take a PR hit for a new GM (Elton Brand) w/ their fans.

2. Thibs--may be dead man walking already.....but Thibs won't believe that--nor should he....so he has to make lemonade out of the lemons dealt him.....so he needs to get the best possible deal he can that both him & GT can be happy w/ moving forward to even have a sliver of a chance to stay on board.

3. Miami---Needs to remember @ the end of the day....if they don't pay up....they don't get a star FA....they are in cap hell & this is their only avenue.

A) They've lowballed us w/ their vets.....we've countered that if that's all we're going to get is older vets....then we'll go to Hou & just live w/ Gordon/Tucker deal. And as long as that's on the table---which there's no indication that it's not....Mia has to blink to start including the young guys eventually.

B) If JB will come to practice & show that he'll play the game & practice w/ us (which we can leverage him on being difficult w/ fines, etc.).....then that again creates leverage on Mia to have to pony up.

So I get Mia fans & Riley are trying to hold out this game of blink, but if JB comes back to the team & GT doesn't panic.....I really think Riley can't go back to his fans & say no JB trade because he wasn't going to concede on Josh Richardson & Bam. I get Mia would love to keep them, but not guys still that you draw the line in the sand on for a shot to add JB.

Patience & cooperation on the Wolves side.....should allow us to at least get a deal that doesn't still make us the laughingstock of the league & immediately get Thibs terminated.

[shrink]

Id prefer fultz and saric

With Irving saying he's going to be a Celtic long-term (who knows if he actually does next year), I think the Wolves work a deal with the Sixers. The Celtics are the class of the East. Philly isn't too far behind them. Jimmy could be the difference to get them past the Celtics. Further, they have better assets to give up than Miami. Fultz and Covington would work.

Id prefer RoCo and Saric

PHI has too much riding on Fultz to trade him before they know what he is. Covington and Saric is more realistic, and Covington is certainly underrated around the league.

However, I have a feeling they aren’t answering our phone calls right now, if the story is true that someone in the Wolves asked new GM Elton Brand about Ben Simmons.

[Grubie024]

As a simple fan, I have reached the point of frustration, so I can’t imagine what it must be like to be Thibs right now.

1. His best player wants out
2. He is forced to find a trade for a player he wants to keep
3. Jimmy spreads the word that he wants to be traded and refuses to re-sign in MIN, and limits buyers with a list
4. His GM undercuts him for a while, saying “bring offers to me”
5. Other GM’s spin stories about their dealings to try to pressure him

I’ve reached the level of many fans. Don’t trade Jimmy, if other teams won’t give you a fair offer.

- Jimmy will show up to play.
- MIN will win games again - they simply have too much talent
- Jimmy listed four teams already that he would like a trade to - this guy isn’t locked in anywhere.
- Check again at the trade deadline. For offers this small, it may be better to gamble on a small chance he re-signs, since MIN can give him that fifth year he wants,

Are you sure Taylor would sign off on a 5 year max? I've been of the mind that we refuse to offer him the 5 year max which is why he wants to be traded.

It has never been said either way, but I would be shocked if he would not pay.

Taylor has always been willing to pay for talent, and it’s especially important for MIN to do so, since we have trouble drawing free agents, Taylor is a billionaire, and he is not getting any younger, moreover, he is no miser. The reason the CBA even created a max deal clause was because Taylor gave Garnett such a big contract (biggest ever, at that time), that other owners said we needed a max amount.

Taylor already offered Jimmy the max extension, but the CBA limits that to a smaller amount based on a raise to Jimmy ‘s current deal. Everyone knew he could get a higher max if he waited until the end of the season to get a higher number based on the current cap, which encorporates the new tv deal. Butler reportedly was mad that MIN didn’t clear cap space to renegotiate his contract to get that max now, however, it would have been nearly impossible - MIN is $20 mil over the cap, and they would have needed to be $30 mil under the cap to give Jimmy that deal.

Superstars drive the nba, and determine the course of franchises. A legit superstar is a value contract, limited in size due to that same max deal clause. I would be shocked if Taylor wouldn’t pay Jimmy the max at the end of the season,

You certainly could be right- Taylor is willing to pay another max.
However, this is a unique situation in franchise history and Taylor would be paying far more for his roster than ever before I imagine. Paying one massive contract to the all-time franchise player (KG) doesn't equate to paying Butler a massive contract.

3 max contracts, exorbitant lux tax, Butler would be quite old on the tail end of those five years. All factors I think reduce the liklihood we'd offer Butler that max. But it's all just a guess. That core has contender potential so maybe Taylor does pull the trigger.

Seems like Butler is either going after the max money and/or wants to play in a big market. I just don't know why he'd leave if we're willing to pay that massive deal. Maybe the rift with Wiggins and Towns is that big? The timing of KAT signing extension does seem odd.... Right when Taylor announces intentions to trade Butler.

Moral of the story- we don't know what the hell is going on. Need to just forget about Butler deal and let leadership take care of it while we enjoy watching our Wolves.

We can make a big stride this year if Wiggins' shot selection improves and Thibs is willing to change his playing style a bit.

[gandlogo]

Id prefer fultz and saric

With Irving saying he's going to be a Celtic long-term (who knows if he actually does next year), I think the Wolves work a deal with the Sixers. The Celtics are the class of the East. Philly isn't too far behind them. Jimmy could be the difference to get them past the Celtics. Further, they have better assets to give up than Miami. Fultz and Covington would work.

I would prefer Saric over Covington as well but the money doesn't work unless the Wolves take Bayless back too. Additionally, I'm guessing Philly prefers Saric over Covington so it is a compromise position to get the deal done. Looking at its roster, Philly is deep at wings and point guards. Thus more likely to deal those positions.

Fultz could (emphasis on could) become the franchise point the Wolves need. He will never reach that potential with the Sixers because of Simmons. And Covington is a great team piece on a solid contract (plus 1st team all defense).

[Kobewade11]

90% of what's being debated here is foolishness. Reports seem pretty clear that JRich has not been offered and that's probably the biggest reason no deal has been done, so we've hit an impasse. The Timberwolves are under no obligation to trade Butler to the Heat and the Heat are under no obligation to trade Richardson to the Wolves. Sounds like either Miami eventually offers him and then MAYBE a deal is worked out depending on the other pieces or Miami doesn't get Butler. There's just no incentive for the Wolves to cave and accept a package that is not worth more than Butler's expiring. I'm not saying Richardson will be offered, maybe Riley thinks he's a star and refuses to ever put him on the table. Fine. Again, Pat Riley is under no obligation to offer him for Jimmy Butler. But the Timberwolves are also under no obligation to trade Jimmy Butler to the Heat for a neutral to negative value package. It's not that he will be offered, it's that if he's not, then I don't see the Wolves ever pulling the trigger.

Spot on.

[mh_3]

My take on this whole thing is that, as a Heat fan, I understand and applaud Riley for holding out. But at some point, Richardson will have to be included. Winslow is not nearly intriguing enough as a trade piece and, to me, Bam is untouchable because he has the highest ceiling of the 3.

I think ultimately the Heat will have to move on a Whiteside/Richardson deal (possibly with the addition of the 2019 FRP) for Butler and Dieng. Ethan and his gang at 5RSN (they’ve been all over this) have been talking about Erik Spoelstra being the guy to really push for Butler (he has influence in these matters).

I also wanted to clarify something though. Been seeing people say the Heat have been leaking things. That couldn’t be more wrong. While, I understand the Wolves FO has been quiet, the Heat FO are notorious for being too secretive. It’s to the point where our fan base actually complains about it because it’s rare that Miami trade talks ever come out (unless it’s being close to finalized). I agree with the Wolves reporter that pretty much everything leaked has been from Butler’s camp.


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[gandlogo]

Id prefer fultz and saric

Id prefer RoCo and Saric

PHI has too much riding on Fultz to trade him before they know what he is. Covington and Saric is more realistic, and Covington is certainly underrated around the league.

However, I have a feeling they aren’t answering our phone calls right now, if the story is true that someone in the Wolves asked new GM Elton Brand about Ben Simmons.

I don't disagree about PHI having invested in Fultz, but he's a man without a position in that lineup. The additions of Shamet and Smith (once he's back) this year and the return of Reddick gives them the depth to deal Fultz. Selling the addition of Butler as a piece to beat the Celtics takes away the sting of moving Fultz.

Regarding the story about the Wolves asking for Simmons, who knows what is true? And where did that information came from? Most agree it was not likely leaked from the Wolves. Even if true, the front offices are grown adults in negotiations. It's just business. At the end of the day Brand needs to beat the Celtics to get to the finals. He's from Duke, so he's smart enough to realize that.

[Macwolf527]

Speculation, Speculation, Speculation, it's all just Speculation.

Fact, The Timberwolves own Jimmy Butler's Bird Rights.
Fact, Jimmy Butler can count and knows the value of $50 million dollars.
Fact, Glen Taylor is a billionaire who will pay for winning.
Fact, The Heat can't sign Jimmy Butler in the offseason for even 10 cents.
Fact, The Heat will pony up what Thibs wants or find some other team(sucker) willing to give them an NBA All-Star for Chumps and Chump-Change.
Fact, Thibs is not a Chump.

The rest is just Speculation!

and one more FACT, Layden has been operating in NBA front offices since 1999 and has played all the games. He's not a Chump either.

The rest is "All Together".......JUST SPECULATION! I'm sick of SPECULATION!

[twix2500]

You have to remember, you are getting only the MIA side of the story. Thibs and Layden don’t say anything, and have stonewalled reporters here for two years,

and I will also point out that the things you are believing wholeheartedly don’t even corroborate with themselves. Remember, MIA gave their “final offer” a few days ago, and suddenly there was more and more negotiations?

It benefits MIA to try to spin this story that they gave a final offer, then I suppose, they were making progress, and then, out of nowhere, MIN wrecked the deal by asking for more. This sounds like a second attempt to use the media to squeeze MIN, or to get Taylor to intercede.

It’s easy to believe the story that benefits you.

Huh there was never suddenly more to the offer. The JRich, Bam and FRP was the Minny request that threw everything for a loop. It's never been establish who camp is saying what. Miami has been known to never leak. That is the sequence that ESPN and main stream reporters are telling it.

It's been consistent for two weeks that how Minny is conducting these trades has been confusing to teams. And I see why.

And there nothing I said that benefits me or the Heat.

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No disrespect. As A heat fan, we (I) appreciate your input, but we don't OWE you Jimmy Butler. You want him, this is what we asked for. You think it's too much. Period. Now, we can negotiate, but we NEED and WANT JRich as the main piece. Period.
If Riley is NOT going to trade him, then there is NOTHING left to talk about. Good luck next summer. (Cap hell)

Why do some of you come at me like I'm negotiating the deal. I'm just discussing on what is possibly going on. Minny and Heat are gonna to do what ever they want to do regardless of what we want. I understand the point Minny wants to get value that's gonna improve the team in return. I understand the Heat are not gonna outbid themselves.

A lot of outlets have been saying GMs do not believe Minny is trying to trade Butler, that is one of the reason most GMs are not entertaining it. Miami is the only team actually entertaining it. IMO I can tell you why they are. One, if there is a slim possibility Minny will move him at a low cost they want to make sure they have an offer out there. That is how OKC got George and NO got Cousins. Both teams eventually gave in and said lets just take the best offer available and move on. Two, Riley has a tendency to lay crumbs to a player who may be on the move. To show him how bad they want him to make him feel wanted. So Miami becomes a desired destination to that player if and when he becomes available. They will praise that player and send message to that player on how highly they think of him. They did that with Shaq, LeBron, Mike Miller, Elton Brand, Lamar Odom, Eddie Jones, Juwan Howard, Gordon Hayward, Durant, Aldridge etc, and now Butler. Some players took the bait and some didn't. In all cases that got them to the table at the least.

The only reason the Heat have any pressure to get it done right now, is because they are negotiating Justise Winslow extension. If they are using him in a deal it's obviously gonna affect those talks and decisions. The extension has to be completed by Oct 15th.



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[thinktank]

I can't And 1 Macwolf’s post enough!

It's up to Miami to pay whatever the Wolves are asking for or not.

[KGdaBom]

Superstars drive the nba, and determine the course of franchises. A legit superstar is a value contract, limited in size due to that same max deal clause. I would be shocked if Taylor wouldn’t pay Jimmy the max at the end of the season,

Would you offer max to Butler of he gets injured againt this season? Looking at IT4 story I am not so sure

Any player can get injured. Curry and Rubio used to be injury risks. Can't live in fear.