Andrew Wiggins and the wolves future

[gandlogo]

His level of effort is laughable. He doesn't have to be a loud, fiery leader. He doesn't have to show emotion. Caring and putting forth effort sure would be nice, however. Improving his game in the offseason sure would be a plus too. Still can't shoot - still can't dribble; and all of that is compounded by playing on cruise control. At this point just give me Okogie. Same skill level, but with an actual motor in the back of his Honda.

[Rashodamus]

His level of effort is laughable. He doesn't have to be a loud, fiery leader. He doesn't have to show emotion. Caring and putting forth effort sure would be nice, however. Improving his game in the offseason sure would be a plus too. Still can't shoot - still can't dribble; and all of that is compounded by playing on cruise control. At this point just give me Okogie. Same skill level, but with an actual motor in the back of his Honda.

Know what the most wolves style move would be? Trade him for nothing, and let somebody else be intelligent and get more out of him to make us look even stupider.

We have seen him play against Cleveland.

We have seen him play against Toronto.

I read a story before he was drafted which questioned his motor and it pointed to a writer writing something about Wiggins father I believe and he went out and dropped like 55 or something that night.

So what did you gather from those 3 things? Anything? Because to me it tells me there is absolutely an emotional switch which can be flipped to bring the motor. If I am Wiggins coach I do 2 things, outlaw long pull up 2's, and intelligently try to find that switch.

Thibs will never find the switch, hes like an old man with no remote control just yelling at the TV to come on and bitching about in his day TVs had a knob to turn them on (innuendo unintentional).

Maybe its an impossible task, maybe the replacement remote you ordered from China never shows up and you always gotta try to manually turn it on with limited success. But we JUST brought it, and we gotta pay the payments for 5 years or trade it for a gamegear with TV adapter. I still think its fairly easily salvaged with a head coaching change.

[shrink]

Jazzfan bringing comedy gold over on the Trade Board, with Thibs running a Wiggins auction. Don’t miss it!

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1751930

Here is the scenario. I'm Tom Thibodeau and Glen Taylor just came to me with the following directive.

"Tom, when we move Butler it's extremely unlikely that we can continue being a playoff team. And with that in mind I believe it makes no sense to try and keep patching holes around KAT. KAT is locked up for a long time, lets use that time to rebuild in earnest. I see the Andrew Wiggins contract as a roadblock to rebuilding rather than a piece of a rebuild. Lets move him now while he still has value. Tear it down, build it up again. Make sure we are a top 4 team in the West by the time KAT's contract negotiations come up."



Make me an offer for Wiggins! Everything except KAT or our picks is on the table. (including Butler) I'm looking for rebuilding pieces.

[yojimbo]

Comedy gold indeed, complete with appropriate Thibs expressions for every mood.

[Zeitgeister]

Just for clarification, Wiggins has played 8 games against Cleveland and 8 games against Toronto in his career, easy for even a lazy person to get motivated for that many games vs the NBA grind of 82 games every season.

His averages against those teams:

Toronto
24 ppg, 4.75 rpg, 2.5 apg, .75 spg, .5 bpg, 3.1 tov

Cleveland
26.1 ppg, 2.56 rpg, 1.1 apg, 1.25 spg, .38 bpg, 1.75 tov

Wiggins career averages against all teams:
19.7 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1.0 spg, .5 bpg, 2.1 tov

So Wiggins scores more against those teams, but does everything else like his thoroughly mediocre self. We've seen Wiggins score a lot of points, he can do that but it's not something playoff offenses want to do if they want to be good.

Sure, I agree that it would be absolutely wonderful if we found that coach who cracked the code and figured out how to reach Wiggins but as we can see, even motivated Wiggins just scores more, he has to be taught how to rebound, pass the ball, play defense etc.

[Calinks]

I have been told a long time ago that you cant teach a motor and I am inclined to believe it. Maybe there is some coach who can get Wiggins to step up more consistently but at this point, its just not who Wiggins is. That doesn't change over night. His rookie year I was worried he was another Wes Johnson and he's not that but he also isn't a star player and I don't see it happening. He just does not have the it factor to get there. He has talent, he can show flashes, he can probably put up 22 PPG consistently as is, but I seriously doubt he will ever come through as a main guy who does a lot for a team.

Zach although a lot less naturally gifted, has more dog in him. Some guys just have a fire where they can work themselves into stardom. Wiggins doesn't have that. Its not even a switch that can be turned off and on. Wiggins will have good games and sparks but being the man every night is not happening. He's a wolf so I will still cheer him on and want to see his success but any hope I had for him being a great player is gone.

[KGdaBom]

I have been told a long time ago that you cant teach a motor and I am inclined to believe it. Maybe there is some coach who can get Wiggins to step up more consistently but at this point, its just not who Wiggins is. That doesn't change over night. His rookie year I was worried he was another Wes Johnson and he's not that but he also isn't a star player and I don't see it happening. He just does not have the it factor to get there. He has talent, he can show flashes, he can probably put up 22 PPG consistently as is, but I seriously doubt he will ever come through as a main guy who does a lot for a team.

Zach although a lot less naturally gifted, has more dog in him. Some guys just have a fire where they can work themselves into stardom. Wiggins doesn't have that. Its not even a switch that can be turned off and on. Wiggins will have good games and sparks but being the man every night is not happening. He's a wolf so I will still cheer him on and want to see his success but any hope I had for him being a great player is gone.

I agree with you and I wish I didn't. Four years is more than enough time to figure this out. Wiggins just doesn't have IT. Whatever IT is.

[Rashodamus]

Is a player who is driven by a motivation to be a great player any better than a player who is driven by a motivation to get a big contract? Take pride in their job? Purely for fame and money? Purely out of ego and arrogance?

Absolutely, this is how you get players who have great last years of their contracts by busting their #)($ one year and then once they sign they let off the gas.

I'll take the guy who is always wanting to be better every day then the guy who's only chasing the next contract if their abilities are somewhat the same.

I am talking about in the moment, that game, the source of the motivation which is pushing them to compete is inconsequential. What if its a one year deal and they are hoping to get paid after that, like maybe Rose this year? If you want to have piece X to help you compete that season, do you care what is motivating them to play well?

Obviously you dont want somebody with waxing and waning motivation based on factors which pop up yearly (contracts), but I dont believe that to be the criticism of Wiggins. His motivating factors appear to be things which I believe are more likely to be harnessed.

I think all this hardship, criticism, and turmoil could ultimately be positive for him. He needs a coach who wont kiss his ass but who he trusts enough to not feel like hes just being **** on. He needs teammates who will hold him accountable but arent pricks like jimmy butler. But these are things we should shoot for as a culture anyway, so I dont see it as any special accommodations for him, I see it as correcting the environmental failures weve saddled our franchise with.

[Rashodamus]

Just for clarification, Wiggins has played 8 games against Cleveland and 8 games against Toronto in his career, easy for even a lazy person to get motivated for that many games vs the NBA grind of 82 games every season.

His averages against those teams:

Toronto
24 ppg, 4.75 rpg, 2.5 apg, .75 spg, .5 bpg, 3.1 tov

Cleveland
26.1 ppg, 2.56 rpg, 1.1 apg, 1.25 spg, .38 bpg, 1.75 tov

Wiggins career averages against all teams:
19.7 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.1 apg, 1.0 spg, .5 bpg, 2.1 tov

So Wiggins scores more against those teams, but does everything else like his thoroughly mediocre self. We've seen Wiggins score a lot of points, he can do that but it's not something playoff offenses want to do if they want to be good.

Sure, I agree that it would be absolutely wonderful if we found that coach who cracked the code and figured out how to reach Wiggins but as we can see, even motivated Wiggins just scores more, he has to be taught how to rebound, pass the ball, play defense etc.

Why intentionally only show bulk numbers and no efficiency or shooting stats? Know what else a box score doesnt tell you? Activity. From watching those games he is visibly more active and engaged, he moves with more urgency on the floor. You havent argued successfully against anything I said, you back the fact he has increased output against certain teams but dishonestly chalk it up to nothing more than "scoring more" without acknowledging the effort or engagement which caused the increased scoring.

in the 16 games he shot:
51% 153/299
.418 28/67 from 3
80% 81/103 FT
Ortg 116
1.39 PPS
.601 TS%

So you would bitch if we got that for a full year? If it was only attached to 3.5/2 R/A from a 2 guard? Id be pretty content with him if he was able to perform at that level offensively for a season, thats a top notch offensive weapon. I would assume that effort could also be steered into defense, another area he has shown to have great potential when motivated.

What if he just came up between that and where he was year two, when he had a 106 Ortg and .543 TS, and he becomes a .572 TS 111 Ortg guy, is he still the anchor you need him to be?

[mplsfonz23]

It seems like I'm one of few Wolves fans that actually likes Wigs. I really think he will have a great year; you can quote me if I'm wrong by the All-Star break. But, I'm sure as Wolves fans, everyone hopes I'm right.

I am down with him. It's not that as fans we don't like him, it just frustrating to see him look so good one game and so uninterested the next. I hope he can see that when he watches film. This is probably the year he needs to take the next step. No Butler excuses now.

[AirP.]

Why intentionally only show bulk numbers and no efficiency or shooting stats? Know what else a box score doesnt tell you? Activity. From watching those games he is visibly more active and engaged, he moves with more urgency on the floor. You havent argued successfully against anything I said, you back the fact he has increased output against certain teams but dishonestly chalk it up to nothing more than "scoring more" without acknowledging the effort or engagement which caused the increased scoring.

in the 16 games he shot:
51% 153/299
.418 28/67 from 3
80% 81/103 FT
Ortg 116
1.39 PPS
.601 TS%

So you would bitch if we got that for a full year? If it was only attached to 3.5/2 R/A from a 2 guard? Id be pretty content with him if he was able to perform at that level offensively for a season, thats a top notch offensive weapon. I would assume that effort could also be steered into defense, another area he has shown to have great potential when motivated.

What if he just came up between that and where he was year two, when he had a 106 Ortg and .543 TS, and he becomes a .572 TS 111 Ortg guy, is he still the anchor you need him to be?

I too post the stats of Wiggins vs Toronto and Cleveland but my motivation for doing so is to say, "look, he can do more when motivated", well at least from the scoring perspective. Wiggins can do that most nights if he gave the effort and had the focus to do so but for some reason most nights he doesn't. Now, just think if he were motivated like that on the defensive end!

It's sad to say it but as of now, the only team I could see Wiggins stay somewhat focused with would be Toronto(hometown team) which is why I keep believing that the DeRozen trade was to prep a rebuild(Kawhi leaves for nothing, part out the older expensive vets) and them hopefully getting Wiggins for nearly nothing and then wow, Wiggins is getting effort and looks like a whole different player(which he actually would be). PR wise, no way you could trade a beloved DeRozen for Wiggins this year, that only works if you're getting a proven good/great player, but if Kawhi leaves next summer people will be on board with a rebuild and blame Kawhi, not the trade of DeRozen the year before.

[LibertyPrime]

I'm not sure why Thibs keeps playing Wiggins at small forward. He's considerably better at SG.

If you have the choice of playing Wiggins or Rose at SG, and you choose Rose, then you're digging your own grave.

[AirP.]

Know what the most wolves style move would be? Trade him for nothing, and let somebody else be intelligent and get more out of him to make us look even stupider.

We have seen him play against Cleveland.

We have seen him play against Toronto.

I read a story before he was drafted which questioned his motor and it pointed to a writer writing something about Wiggins father I believe and he went out and dropped like 55 or something that night.

So what did you gather from those 3 things? Anything? Because to me it tells me there is absolutely an emotional switch which can be flipped to bring the motor. If I am Wiggins coach I do 2 things, outlaw long pull up 2's, and intelligently try to find that switch.

You know what 4 years in the NBA and not finding that "emotional switch" tells me, he doesn't care to find it which absolutely sucks for the Timberwolves.

I am absolutely with you that Wiggins could be a game changer but at this point I think the only way Wiggins can stay focused and give good effort would be playing for Toronto where he does have emotional attachment to the area. I'm a little bit surprised that Toronto hasn't come a calling yet but I think they will next year, Kawhi leaves for nothing it's rebuild time and they may be able to get Wiggins cheap if he has another bad year for what people expect from him, not like last year, that was bad and an outlier, I'm just talking about a high scoring yet only average efficiency season for a .500 or below team.

I would not even consider trading him to Toronto, it's probably the only team that will get something out of him on a regular basis and make the team that trades him look really bad, trading him really anywhere else would be fine to me. Just expect him to have higher effort games when he plays Minnesota, Cleveland and Toronto.

[Rashodamus]

You know what 4 years in the NBA and not finding that "emotional switch" tells me, he doesn't care to find it which absolutely sucks for the Timberwolves.

I am absolutely with you that Wiggins could be a game changer but at this point I think the only way Wiggins can stay focused and give good effort would be playing for Toronto where he does have emotional attachment to the area. I'm a little bit surprised that Toronto hasn't come a calling yet but I think they will next year, Kawhi leaves for nothing it's rebuild time and they may be able to get Wiggins cheap if he has another bad year for what people expect from him, not like last year, that was bad and an outlier, I'm just talking about a high scoring yet only average efficiency season for a .500 or below team.

I would not even consider trading him to Toronto, it's probably the only team that will get something out of him on a regular basis and make the team that trades him look really bad, trading him really anywhere else would be fine to me. Just expect him to have higher effort games when he plays Minnesota, Cleveland and Toronto.

I agree its not a good sign he hasnt found it on his own, I just dont think that dooms it from ever happening.

I honestly think if we traded Wiggins to Toronto they would get the same Wiggins after 10 games. I think his switch revolves around making him come to the conclusion that:

#1. he isnt going all out. He has to accept the premise before he changes it.
#2. It is in his best interests to go all out.

#1 will come with maturity and criticism, #2 is trickier. It doesnt matter why you think its important for him to play hard, or why you think he should, they key is finding a reason HE finds important. You cant make anybody want anything, but if youre smart you can make them realize that they want something.

[vagelis]

Thibs does not want to involve Wiggins in the game.
I think it is clear.
And Wiggins has not the personality to demand the ball, I think it is also clear.
The best case scenario for Wiggins would be if he moved to sg position and Teague was traded.
Teague ignores him and Towns but maybe it is just Thibs system

[AirP.]

#1 will come with maturity and criticism, #2 is trickier. It doesnt matter why you think its important for him to play hard, or why you think he should, they key is finding a reason HE finds important. You cant make anybody want anything, but if youre smart you can make them realize that they want something.

Well, hopefully someone smart will enter his life since all the different coaches at different levels, trainers(even the ones he employees), teammates and possibly family members haven't been smart enough to "unlock" his effort.

[walk with me]

Dangle Wiggins to all 29 teams. Accept first yes, regardless of the deal. Resign jimmy.

[Nick K]

I have been told a long time ago that you cant teach a motor and I am inclined to believe it. Maybe there is some coach who can get Wiggins to step up more consistently but at this point, its just not who Wiggins is. That doesn't change over night. His rookie year I was worried he was another Wes Johnson and he's not that but he also isn't a star player and I don't see it happening. He just does not have the it factor to get there. He has talent, he can show flashes, he can probably put up 22 PPG consistently as is, but I seriously doubt he will ever come through as a main guy who does a lot for a team.

Zach although a lot less naturally gifted, has more dog in him. Some guys just have a fire where they can work themselves into stardom. Wiggins doesn't have that. Its not even a switch that can be turned off and on. Wiggins will have good games and sparks but being the man every night is not happening. He's a wolf so I will still cheer him on and want to see his success but any hope I had for him being a great player is gone.

Sadly, I can't agree more. He is what I thought he was when we traded K Love. After we made the trade I naturally put my rose colored optimistic glasses on and tried to see him in a new light. Each offseason I expected him to get bigger and improve some part of his game. He really hasn't done that. That ticks me off more than anything. The kid has absolutely no fire except when he was told he didn't deserve a max contract. Then he showed plenty of attitude.

He misses too many shots and way too many free throws. The free throws really kill me. I was willing to give him one more year, this year to break out but I'm not seeing it. I see the exact same player I've seen in the past. He's been told all his life how great he is he believes it. Somehow he doesn't believe he has to play up to that standard.

Zach was my guy. I was thrilled Flip picked him. He was my sleeper. Right now I'd trade wigs for Zach anyday. Zach wants it. At least Zach can shoot.

I'm rapidly losing any hope of Wigs being a difference maker on this team.

Put the bong down Andrew. What else could it be?

[minimus]

Funny that MIA benched Whiteside for same things we see in Wiggins.

[immortalone23]

Funny that MIA benched Whiteside for same things we see in Wiggins.

It’s because our culture. Was he ever benched at all his beginning years for bad defense??


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