Andrew Wiggins and the wolves future

[Slim Tubby]

I have been one of the biggest supporters on here of Wiggins and have been hiding behind my magical "potential" shield. No more...he just isn't very good at basketball. Poor basketball IQ, complete lack of motor and drive, softer than a bunny's a$$...it's really quite simple and I can see it clearly now...Wiggins just isn't very good at basketball.

Some people might laugh at this concept but I would happily trade our unprotected 2019 1st to dump Wiggins for nothing more than expiring coming back. SAC appears to be the only potential suitor here:

SAC In: Wiggins ($25M) & 2019 Unprotected 1st (MIN)

MIN In: Randolph ($12M), Koustos ($8M) & McLemore ($5M)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kidfozzy]

Maple Jordan.

But that Jordan is not Michael.

[Neeva]

If he has another season like last season I do not wanna hear his age brought up at all by all his apologists!!!

[gandlogo]

How long until the Wolves can make him available for the 2025 expansion draft?

[Zeitgeister]

Maple Jordan.

But that Jordan is not Michael.

Is it one of Jordan's kids that played DIII basketball? That would make sense.

[big3_8_19_21]

Wiggins + Protected FRP for Otto Porter Jr. Also way overpaid on a max deal, but it's 2 years shorter and at least he fills his role and shoots efficiently.

[KGdaBom]

Wiggins + Protected FRP for Otto Porter Jr. Also way overpaid on a max deal, but it's 2 years shorter and at least he fills his role and shoots efficiently.

I really don't get the people who think Porter is overpaid. He is amazingly efficient and does everything well. So he doesn't score 20 points a game. BFD, I would be thrilled to have Porter on our team and if we could get him for Wiggins and an FRP that would be highway Robbery.

[shangrila]

A different coach could get more from Wiggins. I really don't think Thibs knows how to handle him.

Since he got here, Wiggins has seen a decrease in attempts from 0-3ft (i.e. the rim), a decrease in FT rate and a significant increase in 3pt attempt rate. For a so-so shooter with good percentages around the rim and a rookie season where he thrived getting to the line, it's tough to see this as playing to Wigg's strengths. They need to get him post touches, give and goes with KAT, back door cuts, anything other than spotting up and ISO plays which seems to be all he does with Thibs. And that isn't mentioning the pace the team plays at (24th last season, 25th the year before) which should be much higher given the athletic ability of guys like Wiggins and having the near perfect trail guy in Towns.

And no, I don't think that would make him any less overpaid. But we're stuck with him whether we (or even the team) likes it, so we might as well get what we can out of him.

[Zeitgeister]

A different coach could get more from Wiggins. I really don't think Thibs knows how to handle him.

Since he got here, Wiggins has seen a decrease in attempts from 0-3ft (i.e. the rim), a decrease in FT rate and a significant increase in 3pt attempt rate. For a so-so shooter with good percentages around the rim and a rookie season where he thrived getting to the line, it's tough to see this as playing to Wigg's strengths. They need to get him post touches, give and goes with KAT, back door cuts, anything other than spotting up and ISO plays which seems to be all he does with Thibs. And that isn't mentioning the pace the team plays at (24th last season, 25th the year before) which should be much higher given the athletic ability of guys like Wiggins and having the near perfect trail guy in Towns.

And no, I don't think that would make him any less overpaid. But we're stuck with him whether we (or even the team) likes it, so we might as well get what we can out of him.

I think it's possible that Wiggins might be struggling a bit more with getting to the rim because the book is out on him and teams know his tendencies. I mean, let's be real here, we're not talking about a guy that has much creativity around the rim.

If we strictly compare his second season with his third season (first year under Thibs), we can judge a bit where his offense was coming from.

% of Field Goal Attempts by distance
2015-2016:
0-3 feet: 32%
3-10 feet: 16%
10-16 feet: 13%
16 < 3pt: 24%
3pt: 15%

and then his free throw rate (FTr) was 44%.

% of Field Goal Attempts by distance
2016-2017
0-3 feet: 29%
3-10 feet: 13%
10-16 feet: 14%
16 < 3 feet: 25%
3pt: 18%

FTr was: 35%

So there was a drop in his shot attempts from 0-3 feet, but I'm not so sure that is substantial. His free throw rate drop was pretty dramatic though, most free throws are going to be drawn from 0-3 feet. Not sure how true that is for Wiggins and quite honestly, Wiggins was getting the benefit of the doubt on a lot of free throw calls in my opinion, that's not a totally unique thing to him but I'm curious too whether the officiating on him had changed at all. I don't know that there is a definitive answer to why his free throw rate dropped in that season, it of course fell dramatically the next season too and so did his shot attempts at 0-3 feet.

To me, if you're looking at last season though, I think when you're not the #1 or #2 option on your team, you're going to be put in a corner so to speak and be asked to hit open jumpers, that's just the reality of today's NBA. Wiggins has not shown the capability of being good enough to be a #1 or #2 option on a good team so in my mind it's highly important that he learn to adapt his skillset to the needs of the team at that point.

As to transition buckets, I don't recall many transition plays by Wiggins over the years. Recently Zach Lowe had an article where Wiggins measured as one of the slowest players in the league, just ahead of a few centers. He plays lazy and he doesn't have the skillset to makeup for that.

I mean, I agree that a better offensive coach could get more out of him, maybe give him a few post ups a game, or more off ball actions to give him easier looks at the rim. But I think we need to always look at the productivity and efficiency that a player has through the lens of their role on a team. Wiggins is not good as a primary option on a good team, and he's not good as an off-ball option on a good team, I think it's mostly up to Wiggins to change that.

[southern wolf]

I have been one of the biggest supporters on here of Wiggins and have been hiding behind my magical "potential" shield. No more...he just isn't very good at basketball. Poor basketball IQ, complete lack of motor and drive, softer than a bunny's a$$...it's really quite simple and I can see it clearly now...Wiggins just isn't very good at basketball.

Some people might laugh at this concept but I would happily trade our unprotected 2019 1st to dump Wiggins for nothing more than expiring coming back. SAC appears to be the only potential suitor here:

SAC In: Wiggins ($25M) & 2019 Unprotected 1st (MIN)

MIN In: Randolph ($12M), Koustos ($8M) & McLemore ($5M)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jesus...

He's been disappointing, sure, but he was also a 23 point per game scorer before Butler came to town. We're not going to dump him for expirings.

[shangrila]

A different coach could get more from Wiggins. I really don't think Thibs knows how to handle him.

Since he got here, Wiggins has seen a decrease in attempts from 0-3ft (i.e. the rim), a decrease in FT rate and a significant increase in 3pt attempt rate. For a so-so shooter with good percentages around the rim and a rookie season where he thrived getting to the line, it's tough to see this as playing to Wigg's strengths. They need to get him post touches, give and goes with KAT, back door cuts, anything other than spotting up and ISO plays which seems to be all he does with Thibs. And that isn't mentioning the pace the team plays at (24th last season, 25th the year before) which should be much higher given the athletic ability of guys like Wiggins and having the near perfect trail guy in Towns.

And no, I don't think that would make him any less overpaid. But we're stuck with him whether we (or even the team) likes it, so we might as well get what we can out of him.

I think it's possible that Wiggins might be struggling a bit more with getting to the rim because the book is out on him and teams know his tendencies. I mean, let's be real here, we're not talking about a guy that has much creativity around the rim.

If we strictly compare his second season with his third season (first year under Thibs), we can judge a bit where his offense was coming from.

% of Field Goal Attempts by distance
2015-2016:
0-3 feet: 32%
3-10 feet: 16%
10-16 feet: 13%
16 < 3pt: 24%
3pt: 15%

and then his free throw rate (FTr) was 44%.

% of Field Goal Attempts by distance
2016-2017
0-3 feet: 29%
3-10 feet: 13%
10-16 feet: 14%
16 < 3 feet: 25%
3pt: 18%

FTr was: 35%

So there was a drop in his shot attempts from 0-3 feet, but I'm not so sure that is substantial. His free throw rate drop was pretty dramatic though, most free throws are going to be drawn from 0-3 feet. Not sure how true that is for Wiggins and quite honestly, Wiggins was getting the benefit of the doubt on a lot of free throw calls in my opinion, that's not a totally unique thing to him but I'm curious too whether the officiating on him had changed at all. I don't know that there is a definitive answer to why his free throw rate dropped in that season, it of course fell dramatically the next season too and so did his shot attempts at 0-3 feet.

To me, if you're looking at last season though, I think when you're not the #1 or #2 option on your team, you're going to be put in a corner so to speak and be asked to hit open jumpers, that's just the reality of today's NBA. Wiggins has not shown the capability of being good enough to be a #1 or #2 option on a good team so in my mind it's highly important that he learn to adapt his skillset to the needs of the team at that point.

As to transition buckets, I don't recall many transition plays by Wiggins over the years. Recently Zach Lowe had an article where Wiggins measured as one of the slowest players in the league, just ahead of a few centers. He plays lazy and he doesn't have the skillset to makeup for that.

I mean, I agree that a better offensive coach could get more out of him, maybe give him a few post ups a game, or more off ball actions to give him easier looks at the rim. But I think we need to always look at the productivity and efficiency that a player has through the lens of their role on a team. Wiggins is not good as a primary option on a good team, and he's not good as an off-ball option on a good team, I think it's mostly up to Wiggins to change that.

Nice post and fair points. I know I'm probably trying to make lemonade out of a lemon. Still, I think changing his role will be far easier than changing his attitude or skillset. And since we're stuck with him for the short term at least I'd at least try that before anything more drastic.

I think our best bet is to surround him and Towns with 3pt shooters and other do-stuff guys. Basically give him the "role" of volume scoring. It's not ideal but it's likely the best value we can squeeze out of him. And maybe he develops a little more in that scenario? We can hope. And worst case we're back where we are now, so nothing lost.

[minimus]

I have only one hope. I hope that Okogie or KBD develops into solid 3&D and Wiggins gets benched in second half of this season. There two things that are important for an athlete. First is money. Here we dont have any leverage. Second is pride. It looks like Wiggins has some pride when he played against Cleveland and Toronto. If he gets benched in favor of rookie this would be a great lesson for him.

P.S. I assume that we acquire a solid starter wing in Butler trade.

[Worm Guts]

I have been one of the biggest supporters on here of Wiggins and have been hiding behind my magical "potential" shield. No more...he just isn't very good at basketball. Poor basketball IQ, complete lack of motor and drive, softer than a bunny's a$$...it's really quite simple and I can see it clearly now...Wiggins just isn't very good at basketball.

Some people might laugh at this concept but I would happily trade our unprotected 2019 1st to dump Wiggins for nothing more than expiring coming back. SAC appears to be the only potential suitor here:

SAC In: Wiggins ($25M) & 2019 Unprotected 1st (MIN)

MIN In: Randolph ($12M), Koustos ($8M) & McLemore ($5M)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jesus...

He's been disappointing, sure, but he was also a 23 point per game scorer before Butler came to town. We're not going to dump him for expirings.

Even when he was scoring 23 per game, he wasn't good.

[Slim Tubby]

I have been one of the biggest supporters on here of Wiggins and have been hiding behind my magical "potential" shield. No more...he just isn't very good at basketball. Poor basketball IQ, complete lack of motor and drive, softer than a bunny's a$$...it's really quite simple and I can see it clearly now...Wiggins just isn't very good at basketball.

Some people might laugh at this concept but I would happily trade our unprotected 2019 1st to dump Wiggins for nothing more than expiring coming back. SAC appears to be the only potential suitor here:

SAC In: Wiggins ($25M) & 2019 Unprotected 1st (MIN)

MIN In: Randolph ($12M), Koustos ($8M) & McLemore ($5M)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jesus...

He's been disappointing, sure, but he was also a 23 point per game scorer before Butler came to town. We're not going to dump him for expirings.

The fact that SAC probably rejects this offer is all you need to know about Wiggins.

If you would rather roll with Wiggins and his average $29M salary for the next 5 years rather than use that cap space on a better player(s) then I guess we'll have to strongly disagree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KGdaBom]

A different coach could get more from Wiggins. I really don't think Thibs knows how to handle him.

Since he got here, Wiggins has seen a decrease in attempts from 0-3ft (i.e. the rim), a decrease in FT rate and a significant increase in 3pt attempt rate. For a so-so shooter with good percentages around the rim and a rookie season where he thrived getting to the line, it's tough to see this as playing to Wigg's strengths. They need to get him post touches, give and goes with KAT, back door cuts, anything other than spotting up and ISO plays which seems to be all he does with Thibs. And that isn't mentioning the pace the team plays at (24th last season, 25th the year before) which should be much higher given the athletic ability of guys like Wiggins and having the near perfect trail guy in Towns.

And no, I don't think that would make him any less overpaid. But we're stuck with him whether we (or even the team) likes it, so we might as well get what we can out of him.

I think it's possible that Wiggins might be struggling a bit more with getting to the rim because the book is out on him and teams know his tendencies. I mean, let's be real here, we're not talking about a guy that has much creativity around the rim.

If we strictly compare his second season with his third season (first year under Thibs), we can judge a bit where his offense was coming from.

% of Field Goal Attempts by distance
2015-2016:
0-3 feet: 32%
3-10 feet: 16%
10-16 feet: 13%
16 < 3pt: 24%
3pt: 15%

and then his free throw rate (FTr) was 44%.

% of Field Goal Attempts by distance
2016-2017
0-3 feet: 29%
3-10 feet: 13%
10-16 feet: 14%
16 < 3 feet: 25%
3pt: 18%

FTr was: 35%

So there was a drop in his shot attempts from 0-3 feet, but I'm not so sure that is substantial. His free throw rate drop was pretty dramatic though, most free throws are going to be drawn from 0-3 feet. Not sure how true that is for Wiggins and quite honestly, Wiggins was getting the benefit of the doubt on a lot of free throw calls in my opinion, that's not a totally unique thing to him but I'm curious too whether the officiating on him had changed at all. I don't know that there is a definitive answer to why his free throw rate dropped in that season, it of course fell dramatically the next season too and so did his shot attempts at 0-3 feet.

To me, if you're looking at last season though, I think when you're not the #1 or #2 option on your team, you're going to be put in a corner so to speak and be asked to hit open jumpers, that's just the reality of today's NBA. Wiggins has not shown the capability of being good enough to be a #1 or #2 option on a good team so in my mind it's highly important that he learn to adapt his skillset to the needs of the team at that point.

As to transition buckets, I don't recall many transition plays by Wiggins over the years. Recently Zach Lowe had an article where Wiggins measured as one of the slowest players in the league, just ahead of a few centers. He plays lazy and he doesn't have the skillset to makeup for that.

I mean, I agree that a better offensive coach could get more out of him, maybe give him a few post ups a game, or more off ball actions to give him easier looks at the rim. But I think we need to always look at the productivity and efficiency that a player has through the lens of their role on a team. Wiggins is not good as a primary option on a good team, and he's not good as an off-ball option on a good team, I think it's mostly up to Wiggins to change that.

I find the talk that Thibs doesn't know how to use Wiggins amusing. Wiggins was a 23 PPG scorer under Thibs. However, he still was a crappy player. Thibs was smart enough to want to move on.

[Grubie024]

I have been told a long time ago that you cant teach a motor and I am inclined to believe it. Maybe there is some coach who can get Wiggins to step up more consistently but at this point, its just not who Wiggins is. That doesn't change over night. His rookie year I was worried he was another Wes Johnson and he's not that but he also isn't a star player and I don't see it happening. He just does not have the it factor to get there. He has talent, he can show flashes, he can probably put up 22 PPG consistently as is, but I seriously doubt he will ever come through as a main guy who does a lot for a team.

Zach although a lot less naturally gifted, has more dog in him. Some guys just have a fire where they can work themselves into stardom. Wiggins doesn't have that. Its not even a switch that can be turned off and on. Wiggins will have good games and sparks but being the man every night is not happening. He's a wolf so I will still cheer him on and want to see his success but any hope I had for him being a great player is gone.

Sadly, I can't agree more. He is what I thought he was when we traded K Love. After we made the trade I naturally put my rose colored optimistic glasses on and tried to see him in a new light. Each offseason I expected him to get bigger and improve some part of his game. He really hasn't done that. That ticks me off more than anything. The kid has absolutely no fire except when he was told he didn't deserve a max contract. Then he showed plenty of attitude.

He misses too many shots and way too many free throws. The free throws really kill me. I was willing to give him one more year, this year to break out but I'm not seeing it. I see the exact same player I've seen in the past. He's been told all his life how great he is he believes it. Somehow he doesn't believe he has to play up to that standard.

Zach was my guy. I was thrilled Flip picked him. He was my sleeper. Right now I'd trade wigs for Zach anyday. Zach wants it. At least Zach can shoot.

I'm rapidly losing any hope of Wigs being a difference maker on this team.

Put the bong down Andrew. What else could it be?

I've wondered if he's on Valium or something. Still doesn't explain him doing jack **** in the offseason though...

[Rashodamus]

#1 will come with maturity and criticism, #2 is trickier. It doesnt matter why you think its important for him to play hard, or why you think he should, they key is finding a reason HE finds important. You cant make anybody want anything, but if youre smart you can make them realize that they want something.

Well, hopefully someone smart will enter his life since all the different coaches at different levels, trainers(even the ones he employees), teammates and possibly family members haven't been smart enough to "unlock" his effort.

You say that like it isnt true, but its 100% fact.

He hasnt had his motivation unlocked. So if somebody attempted, they failed, and if they didnt attempt then they werent smart enough to attempt, and failed. You cant use the lack of success to imply that its an impossible task, especially when his entire NBA career has been spent under coaches more well suited to 1980's basketball and 80's player mindsets.

So yes, they all failed, thats a fact. Wiggins has failed to do so as well, thats also a fact, hes not without blame.

[AirP.]

#1 will come with maturity and criticism, #2 is trickier. It doesnt matter why you think its important for him to play hard, or why you think he should, they key is finding a reason HE finds important. You cant make anybody want anything, but if youre smart you can make them realize that they want something.

Well, hopefully someone smart will enter his life since all the different coaches at different levels, trainers(even the ones he employees), teammates and possibly family members haven't been smart enough to "unlock" his effort.

You say that like it isnt true, but its 100% fact.

He hasnt had his motivation unlocked. So if somebody attempted, they failed, and if they didnt attempt then they werent smart enough to attempt, and failed. You cant use the lack of success to imply that its an impossible task, especially when his entire NBA career has been spent under coaches more well suited to 1980's basketball and 80's player mindsets.

So yes, they all failed, thats a fact. Wiggins has failed to do so as well, thats also a fact, hes not without blame.

Great! Can't wait for this mysterious person to "unlock" Wiggins' motivation.

Don't forget college too! There were questions about his effort there also. Almost like scouts talked about this before he was drafted and 4 years later nothings changed other then being rewarded by Glen Taylor.

Weird, that 80s basketball got 2 starters from Minnesota on the all-nba team and Wiggins, well, nowhere close.

[Rashodamus]

Great! Can't wait for this mysterious person to "unlock" Wiggins' motivation.

Don't forget college too! There were questions about his effort there also. Almost like scouts talked about this before he was drafted and 4 years later nothings changed other then being rewarded by Glen Taylor.

Youre ignoring logic for emotional whining. What I said was fact, if you want to dispute it then do so. But all you are doing is what I called you out for initially, implying that its impossible to get more from him because his previous coaches didnt. Again, their failure doesnt prove anything other than their failure. We agree they failed, you simply dont want to apply responsibility for the failure because you apparently believe its impossible. I disagree and point to proven times when hes shown to play harder, such as Tor/Cle games.

Your "mysterious person to unlock wiggins motivation!" sounds just like kgdabombs "crystal ball to know the butler trade would be a disaster!". Since you are unable to quantify what would be needed to accomplish the goal you simply chalk it up to magic, no different than his inability to critically evaluate the trade so he determined a crystal ball was needed to make such a prediction.

Crystal balls and mystery men...I will just rely on logic if you dont mind.

[Alwaysrightguy]

you can fix the Jimmy situation by trading him. you can fix KAT's bad defense by adding a strong defensive minded Power forward along side him but you cannot fix Wiggz. An absolute bum that Taylor extended because that is what bad owners do.