Butler has requested a trade (Part II)

[Nick K]

Shaq and Kobe weren't best buds. Didn't matter. They were grown up enough to realize they had a job to do.

That's true espicially for the first year. Not long after that they substantially reconciled but into year 3 they were tight. They both realized how good they each were.

[shrink]

So will the people that want to believe this theory blame every loss on chemistry, and ignore all the wins (like last year?). You know, how most of our losses came when KAT and Butler WEREN’T on the team together?

What possible criteria are you going to use to say, “See, this prove this loss was due to chemistry! That’s what I blame!”

[King Malta]

So will the people that want to believe this theory blame every loss on chemistry, and ignore all the wins (like last year?). You know, how most of our losses came when KAT and Butler WEREN’T on the team together?

What possible criteria are you going to use to say, “See, this prove this loss was due to chemistry! That’s what I blame!”

Personally, no. Chemistry/culture is just one part of a number of factors that go into whether a team is successful or not.

I also think that the existing culture of a team doesn't just change when a member of the team sits injured for a certain period. Maybe we're talking about two different things, I'm not so worried about the chemistry between two players on the court but rather the culture in the locker room and organisation overall.

[minimus]

So will the people that want to believe this theory blame every loss on chemistry, and ignore all the wins (like last year?). You know, how most of our losses came when KAT and Butler WEREN’T on the team together?

What possible criteria are you going to use to say, “See, this prove this loss was due to chemistry! That’s what I blame!”

What I believe is that players can perform better when they play within an offensive, defensive system AND they fit together as group. Thibs tried to bring here hardworkers + best talent available and make it work. Sometimes he ignored chemistry or fit question at all. How much passing game we saw last season? It was basically ISO Butler, ISO KAT, ISO Teague and ISO JC. And when we speak about Rubio, Thibs traded him right after his best stint with us. But fans forget that last season with Rubio was a tale of two parts: Wiggins as point forward and Rubio running the point guard at full time, full game speed. Why all of Thibs players played best year here, just after they joined MIN? Rose, Butler, Gibson? Why all new to Thibs players struggled mighty? Teague and entire roster that Flip assembled.

So no, not every game is lost because of lack of chemistry. But as long as basketball is team sport, chemistry is the most important context if we speak about team and not individual talent.

[Klomp]

Teams like the Heat and Rockets, two that will not have cap space to chase free agents next summer, have to acquire a star via trade if they want to add another one at all. That gives the Wolves a little bit of leverage in these talks, even if everyone believes that keeping Butler is an untenable option.

Thibodeau’s well-known stubbornness could be playing in the Wolves’ favor here. By digging in the way that he has, he could be sowing a little bit of doubt into the minds of owners and GMs in the hunt. He wouldn’t really hold on to Butler this season, would he?

If anyone in the league would give it a try, Thibodeau rolling the dice with Butler would rank pretty high on the gambler’s list. The Wolves front office of Thibodeau and GM Scott Layden have been known for two years as one of the most difficult to engage with, according to agents and executives around the league. So in many ways they are staying on brand in this scenario.

And if Butler wasn’t that good, most teams would have hung up the phone and not come back to deal with the perceived headaches that Thibodeau and Layden are allegedly bringing.

But talks are expected to resume this week.

https://theathletic.com/575838/2018/10/08/jimmy-butler-standoff-timberwolves-tom-thibodeau-scott-layden-heat-clippers/

[Pillendreher]

Sources tell me that Pat Riley has just made Rodney Mcgruder "untouchable"

He's a like a son to him.

[Rookie-Mistake]

Dig in, make him honour his contract, the season is doomed anyway, adding crumbs from Miami wont make us a playoff team.

[twix2500]

It's interesting, that Miami and Minnesota are two of the worse teams in fastbreak points last year. I figure it's due to your guys not getting stops and turnovers.

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[minimus]

It's interesting, that Miami and Minnesota are two of the worse teams in fastbreak points last year. I figure it's due to your guys not getting stops and turnovers.

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Better opponent team scores = less fastbreak points you get.

[KGdaBom]

That Teague quote is great. It bothers me so much that our team is not cohesive while we got these other teams being super buddy buddy and clicking on all cylinders. We look so dysfunctional and poor chemistry wise.

Remember when we had KAT, Wigs, and LaVine plus Ricky...? Those guys loved playing together......wistfully. Hung out and had fun. How good is that?

That was Flip's vision. Pretty sad Thibs destroyed that in 2 seconds.

Destroying that was good. They had a lot of fun losing together.

[KGdaBom]

Shaq and Kobe weren't best buds. Didn't matter. They were grown up enough to realize they had a job to do.

Exactly. And neither were Magic and Kareem, or Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman. As long as they play well together and don't hate each other, it's not a big concern.

Ricky, Zach, Wiggins, and KAT were great friends.... on objectively terrible teams.

Phil Jackson was there for MJ and Rodman and both of them only played on the court, Rodman wouldn't even be in the locker room a lot of the time.

PJax was also there for Kobe and Shaq. Thibs is heavens away from PJax.

Magic and Kareems relationship only turned sour at the end of their tenure together. Butler and KAT lasted barely a season.

Butler and KAT was a winning combination.

[shrink]

Sources tell me that Pat Riley has just made Rodney Mcgruder "untouchable"

He's a like a son to him.

And there’s a rumor that Jimmy is like a son to Michael Jordan....!

[minimus]

All-Star forward Jimmy Butler has returned to Minnesota and once again informed the Timberwolves of his desire to be traded, according to Shams Charania and Jon Krawczynski of The Athletic. Butler, who was away from the team during their West Coast trip, had yet to return to Minnesota, now forced to return and make his desire known to president/head coach Tom Thibodeau once again, given how slowly talks have moved with inquiring teams.

https://clutchpoints.com/timberwolves-news-jimmy-butler-once-again-reiterates-desire-to-be-traded/

Vivat Thibs GM!

[Pillendreher]

This is Thibs right now

[minimus]

This is Thibs right now

I have one hope. That Glen and Thibs are playing good and bad cop in order to create a bidding war.

[SO_MONEY]

My best guess in all this is the framework of the players is generally agreed on "if" a deal is to ever happen. I think that is Dragic, Richardson and Winslow. I think there are two holdups.

1. Minnesota may also want Bam. Which would still add up capwise in a Butler/Dieng trade.

2. Minnesota wants a FRP. Miami wants to use the FRP to unload Gorgi or someone else. Miami doesn't want to give MN a pick and use a second to unload Gorgi. Miami likely views their picks or any use of them as the only way shed salary to bring in players around Butler.

Both teams cannot get what they want. Either MN needs to drop the need for a pick and/or Bam or MIA needs to drop the need to use a pick to shed Dieng or someone in the future. I think these are critical issues that may be difficult to overcome. It would be hard and make little sense to budge for either team.

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[minimus]

My best guess in all this is the framework of the players is generally agreed on "if" a deal is to ever happen. I think that is Dragic, Richardson and Winslow. I think there are two holdups.

1. Minnesota may also want Bam. Which would still add up capwise in a Butler/Dieng trade.

2. Minnesota wants a FRP. Miami wants to use the FRP to unload Gorgi or someone else. Miami doesn't want to give MN a pick and use a second to unload Gorgi. Miami likely views their picks or any use of them as the only way shed salary to bring in players around Butler.

Both teams cannot get what they want. Either MN needs to drop the need for a pick and/or Bam or MIA needs to drop the need to use a pick to shed Dieng or someone in the future. I think these are critical issues that may be difficult to overcome. It would be hard and make little sense to budge for either team.

Sent from my LGMS428 using Tapatalk

I prefer Bam over pick. Altough I think MIA wants to keep both. Pick and Bam

[dean456]

My best guess in all this is the framework of the players is generally agreed on "if" a deal is to ever happen. I think that is Dragic, Richardson and Winslow. I think there are two holdups.

1. Minnesota may also want Bam. Which would still add up capwise in a Butler/Dieng trade.

2. Minnesota wants a FRP. Miami wants to use the FRP to unload Gorgi or someone else. Miami doesn't want to give MN a pick and use a second to unload Gorgi. Miami likely views their picks or any use of them as the only way shed salary to bring in players around Butler.

Both teams cannot get what they want. Either MN needs to drop the need for a pick and/or Bam or MIA needs to drop the need to use a pick to shed Dieng or someone in the future. I think these are critical issues that may be difficult to overcome. It would be hard and make little sense to budge for either team.

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Minny getting Dragic, JRich, Winslow and Bam is unrealistic, Miami isn't going to sacrifice their young core and only point guard for Butler and Dieng's awful contract. That's 4 great value assets for one player who doesn't want to be on your team anymore and 15mil less cap for us to spend for the next 3 years. I'd rather wait till he leaves.

[Mattya]

My best guess in all this is the framework of the players is generally agreed on "if" a deal is to ever happen. I think that is Dragic, Richardson and Winslow. I think there are two holdups.

1. Minnesota may also want Bam. Which would still add up capwise in a Butler/Dieng trade.

2. Minnesota wants a FRP. Miami wants to use the FRP to unload Gorgi or someone else. Miami doesn't want to give MN a pick and use a second to unload Gorgi. Miami likely views their picks or any use of them as the only way shed salary to bring in players around Butler.

Both teams cannot get what they want. Either MN needs to drop the need for a pick and/or Bam or MIA needs to drop the need to use a pick to shed Dieng or someone in the future. I think these are critical issues that may be difficult to overcome. It would be hard and make little sense to budge for either team.

Sent from my LGMS428 using Tapatalk

Minny getting Dragic, JRich, Winslow and Bam is unrealistic, Miami isn't going to sacrifice their young core and only point guard for Butler and Dieng's awful contract. That's 4 great value assets for one player who doesn't want to be on your team anymore and 15mil less cap for us to spend for the next 3 years. I'd rather wait till he leaves.

And do what?

[dean456]

My best guess in all this is the framework of the players is generally agreed on "if" a deal is to ever happen. I think that is Dragic, Richardson and Winslow. I think there are two holdups.

1. Minnesota may also want Bam. Which would still add up capwise in a Butler/Dieng trade.

2. Minnesota wants a FRP. Miami wants to use the FRP to unload Gorgi or someone else. Miami doesn't want to give MN a pick and use a second to unload Gorgi. Miami likely views their picks or any use of them as the only way shed salary to bring in players around Butler.

Both teams cannot get what they want. Either MN needs to drop the need for a pick and/or Bam or MIA needs to drop the need to use a pick to shed Dieng or someone in the future. I think these are critical issues that may be difficult to overcome. It would be hard and make little sense to budge for either team.

Sent from my LGMS428 using Tapatalk

Minny getting Dragic, JRich, Winslow and Bam is unrealistic, Miami isn't going to sacrifice their young core and only point guard for Butler and Dieng's awful contract. That's 4 great value assets for one player who doesn't want to be on your team anymore and 15mil less cap for us to spend for the next 3 years. I'd rather wait till he leaves.

And do what?

Make a trade with someone else to shed cap and sign him. Or forget about him and continue building. Having Jimmy Butler and no cap and no assets to build around him is pointless for us.