Doc Rivers REALLY doesn't play rookies much.

[Harry Garris]

Meh, most coaches tend to play rookies less. If I am not mistaken, the worst used to be George Karl, being rookie on his team was a bench sentence.

Pop, Stevens, Spoelstra, and Snyder have all given rookies plenty of meaningful minutes, even in clutch playoff situations. The best coaches play their best guys.

Most rookies aren't good.

That was the belief for a long time but it's becoming more and more common for guys to make an impact during their first year. So maybe these coaches need to do a better job of helping them improve. The talent is obviously there.

[nolang1]

Recently this has become an area of debate with media as they have called him out, and he's passionately denied this claim, often saying he just hasn't had many good rookie or young players. Mind you this statistic is just rookies, I'm willing to bet even 2nd and 3rd year players get underplayed by Doc.



"Rivers has tried to refute the idea that he doesn’t play his rookies. He doesn’t. In 19 seasons as an NBA head coach, here’s the list of rookies to play more than 1,400 total minutes and average more than 24 minutes per game under Rivers:

Mike Miller.

That’s it.

Avery Bradley, a former Celtics first-round pick and current Clipper, played just 162 minutes under Rivers in his rookie season."

Per D.J Foster on The Ringer.


Doc better break that pattern this year or he could find himself out of a job next season.

Not very many rookies average 24 mpg in general, so perhaps we should point out which rookies clearly deserved this type of mpg under Doc over the years?

After a little research it’s pretty clear these parameters were created solely to make Doc look bad. Both Tyrone Wallace (undrafted) ans Drew Golden played 28 mpg as rookies and Gorden Giricek played 35 mpg but none of them hit the 1400 minute threshold.

Also being ignored is the part where he coached a contending Celtic team followed by a contending Clipper team which has taken up most of his career. That means you have late first round picks vying for minutes on teams with quality veterans already in place, on teams that are trying to win games instead of develop players.

I just did a quick search and Al Jefferson was a rotation player as an 18 year old playing 15 mpg. Sullinger played 20 mpg in the rotation. Ryan Gomes was in the rotation as a 2nd round pick played 23 mpg. Rondo averaged 23.5 mpg as a rookie (these last 2 make it clear why 24 mpg was used as the cut off here just to make Doc look bad). The Clippers have rarely drafted in the first round the last few seasons, only Reggie Bullock and Brice Johnson were first round picks so I’m not sure who he should have been playing big minutes.

A quick glance at Greg Popovich and I don’t see a single rookie with >24.0 mpg since Tony Parker in 2001-02. Ginobili fell short. Kawhi played 23.96 mpg. Same issue it seems.

Anyways, I think this is clearly a whole bunch of nothing. A myth.

This is a great counter argument that may cause me to adjust my expectations, thank you. I guess much of this could be me imposing my own philosophies towards development in an unrealistic way. My thinking is... when you have a non contender, pretty much everything should be geared around playing and developing young guys.

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Last year was the first year since 2007 Doc coached a non-contending team. The Clippers didn't have a first-round pick but were acclaimed for utilizing the two-way contracts to get a lot out of rookie players who helped keep the team afloat despite injuries.

[sule]

Not very many rookies average 24 mpg in general, so perhaps we should point out which rookies clearly deserved this type of mpg under Doc over the years?

This was my initial impression regarding minutes. I can see how someone could settle on 24 as a benchmark since it's half the available game minutes. But I'd be curious to see how many of Doc's rookies play above the mean for rookie minutes. I think that would be more telling.

Then we'd have to see how that distribution of minutes relates to rookies on other teams with similar records over the span of his career, and how that minute distribution relates to other players picked at those positions. And only after all that, would we be able to apply context to those rookie minutes, like "did the team have a more reliable player at the same position?", "was the team aiming to win games or develop players?", and "did the player show flashes of potential when given minutes, or did the player improve in subsequent years?", among other situational contexts to be considered.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Not very many rookies average 24 mpg in general, so perhaps we should point out which rookies clearly deserved this type of mpg under Doc over the years?

After a little research it’s pretty clear these parameters were created solely to make Doc look bad. Both Tyrone Wallace (undrafted) ans Drew Golden played 28 mpg as rookies and Gorden Giricek played 35 mpg but none of them hit the 1400 minute threshold.

Also being ignored is the part where he coached a contending Celtic team followed by a contending Clipper team which has taken up most of his career. That means you have late first round picks vying for minutes on teams with quality veterans already in place, on teams that are trying to win games instead of develop players.

I just did a quick search and Al Jefferson was a rotation player as an 18 year old playing 15 mpg. Sullinger played 20 mpg in the rotation. Ryan Gomes was in the rotation as a 2nd round pick played 23 mpg. Rondo averaged 23.5 mpg as a rookie (these last 2 make it clear why 24 mpg was used as the cut off here just to make Doc look bad). The Clippers have rarely drafted in the first round the last few seasons, only Reggie Bullock and Brice Johnson were first round picks so I’m not sure who he should have been playing big minutes.

A quick glance at Greg Popovich and I don’t see a single rookie with >24.0 mpg since Tony Parker in 2001-02. Ginobili fell short. Kawhi played 23.96 mpg. Same issue it seems.

Anyways, I think this is clearly a whole bunch of nothing. A myth.

This is a great counter argument that may cause me to adjust my expectations, thank you. I guess much of this could be me imposing my own philosophies towards development in an unrealistic way. My thinking is... when you have a non contender, pretty much everything should be geared around playing and developing young guys.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Last year was the first year since 2007 Doc coached a non-contending team. The Clippers didn't have a first-round pick but were acclaimed for utilizing the two-way contracts to get a lot out of rookie players to keep the team afloat despite injuries.

Yea. Last year though Harrell+Thornwell should of played a lot more. As you said though he hasn't had a ton of opportunities to play young guys.

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[Effigy]

It's really weird to wrap my head around, but Doc Rivers is almost always coaching good teams. Good teams don't get high draft picks, and you can't play young guys right away.

[Capn'O]

One of my favorite, relevant segments on playing rookies:

Watch on YouTube

[Wammy Giveaway]

The main worry about Doc and rookies is that, if he plays them significant minutes, they're automatic losses. Playing rookies is a symptom of a team predicted to miss the playoffs instantly, whereas veterans lead you to wins and a playoff appearance. Doc is all about playoffs and winning - he has no time to develop players.

ESPN radio personality and play-by-play man John Ireland recalled a remark from Phil Jackson where he described rookies as being "lower than pond scum." One of my biggest gripes with Doc was that when he defeated somebody in the playoffs, he would "absorb" one of their egos. By defeating Phil in the 2008 NBA Finals, Doc believed he became Phil, thus absorbing his personality. Let's see if we could put that to the test.

I will have a later post on this, but at least one reader provided a list of rookies who Doc played which I will go over with some help. Some qualifiers that would be looked at are:

1. Games Of Significance: Which games did the rookies play within the 20 minute range or greater where they exclusively weren't restricted to garbage time? Did the player help or hurt his team simply by participating - how many points did he allow when he was on the court? What were the records when he had 20 minutes or more of playing time?

2. Opportunity Vs. Experience: More often than not, Doc lets injury be the determinant factor to a rookie's playing time. The more players that are injured, the higher the probability of a rookie seeing the floor; this was pretty evident last year with the Clippers. How many players were needed to be injured before a rookie got playing time? Was the injury to a superstar or a bench player? Doc Rivers forced Jared Dudley to play through an injury, but did he do so because of Reggie Bullock, a rookie, and the fear of automatic losses?

3. Placement Of Draft: What was their draft selection? Who else was out that the team should have taken? Who drafted them? The third question is important, as you will recall Doc Rivers took the GM job when he became Clippers coach. Part of Doc's reasoning for total say had to do with the shrewd Donald Sterling, and how he had a history of always screwing things up.

4. Before and after the 2008 NBA Finals: Was Doc more welcome to playing rookies when he first started out? After winning his first championship with Celtics (as coach), did veterans become Doc's new top priority? What was the minutes played average for rookies before and after 2008? What was the percentage weight between rookies and veterans before and after 2008? Did not playing in the 1994 NBA Finals (he was injured) and losing to the Rockets had anything to do with his habit of ring chasing - is that what Doc's doing at this point?

5. The coach's son: Doc Rivers traded for Austin Rivers in 2014-15 using Bullock in a three-team trade; Bullock was a Doc Rivers selection at 25. Bullock (9.2 in 2013-14, 10.5 in 2014-15), C.J. Wilcox (4.8 in 2014-15 and 7.3 in 2015-16) and Branden Dawson (4.8 in 2015-16) had less minutes per game than Austin's first year with Clippers (19.3 in 2014-15) in a mid-season trade - while on a rookie scale contract that was guaranteed to be declined. If Doc detests playing rookies for fear of losses and a lottery team impression, why didn't Austin get the same treatment as the others? That's part of the outlier.

[cuyankees]

Lol. AB barely played in his rookie season. Those stats are wrong. Rondo came close at about 23.5 mpg as a rookie

Exactly the reason the Foster guy who wrote that article used minimum 24min , to exclude Rondo from the list , that's the beauty of number , you can use some random stats to promote your agenda.

Or it could coincidentally be exactly half of an NBA game

[The_Hater]

This is a great counter argument that may cause me to adjust my expectations, thank you. I guess much of this could be me imposing my own philosophies towards development in an unrealistic way. My thinking is... when you have a non contender, pretty much everything should be geared around playing and developing young guys.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

Last year was the first year since 2007 Doc coached a non-contending team. The Clippers didn't have a first-round pick but were acclaimed for utilizing the two-way contracts to get a lot out of rookie players to keep the team afloat despite injuries.

Yea. Last year though Harrell+Thornwell should of played a lot more. As you said though he hasn't had a ton of opportunities to play young guys.

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Thornwell likely played more than he should have, he was pretty awful. 1150 minutes seems like a lot of run in his case. Evans got about 800 minutes and he was even worse. But he did play Wallace, CJ Williams and Teodosic played big minutes when they were available. You still have to play those who deserve and earn minutes, not just give a marginal prospect like Thornwell starters minutes.

[og15]

Lol. AB barely played in his rookie season. Those stats are wrong. Rondo came close at about 23.5 mpg as a rookie

Exactly the reason the Foster guy who wrote that article used minimum 24min , to exclude Rondo from the list , that's the beauty of number , you can use some random stats to promote your agenda.

Or it could coincidentally be exactly half of an NBA game

It's the combination of 24 mpg AND over 1400 minutes. If it just 24 mpg you get more players in there. If it is just 1400 minutes you get more players in there. You put both and it is just the right combo to knockout every rookie Doc has coached except Miller. Seems very convenient. Why 1400 minutes? Why is half of an NBA game the mark for getting minutes for a rookie? Also just because the writer suggests those cut offs, we don't need to accept them as the right markers unless there's a great convincing explanation as to why this are due, which there isn't