Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[youngWizzy]

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Bye bye 1st round pick.

I knew this was far more than just soreness from the start. Wouldn't be surprised if this injury occurs later in the season.

[payitforward]

A. We disagree on measuring a given player's performance so while you suggest Rondo is STILL a very good player, I see him as non-descript middle-of-the-road PG who still passes pretty well but doesn't score, hurts spacing and only defends when he's inspired to do so. I see AD, Holiday & Mirotic as the big driving forces in the Pelicians success, not Rondo. Apparently neither did the Pels because they saw fellow bricklayer Elfrid Payton as a better option at PG going forward.

But we had this argument a few years ago when Chicago experimented with a non-shooting lineup featuring Rondo, Wade & Butler. A roster so talented they couldn't help but be good according to you even though I screamed it was a horrible fit due to ball dominant non-spacers but fit never mattered much to you.

B. I'm not making a list based on who's did what in the past. My list takes that into consideration but is based on what I expect to happen next year. Obviously, I expect Wall to have a pretty good year.

C. Playoffs matter. I have no idea why more stats gurus don't take this into account. Obviously the reason we play games is to have a playoffs to determine a champion. So how come whenever we discuss which player is better than who, we only throw out regular season numbers? So while it's good to know the RPM, WS48 or PER of a player during the regular season, these numbers take even more significance in the post season as the games are far more important. As to coming up with a specific measurement or formula to determine how much it should count, I'll leave that up to the math geeks, but a guy like Lillard, who has come up short in the playoffs 3 years in a row has to be dinged. Same with Lowry & DeRozan.

D. It's always a numbers game with you which makes debating you somewhat hard because again, you view your particular measurement tool which such certainty as if it's the only clear way to determine a player's standing when there's so much not captured by these basic stats. I've argued the absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence but that's fallen on deaf ears.

1. Rondo -- I asked (skeptically, it's true) whether you didn't have him in the top 20. Not the same as thinking he's still an elite PG. Yet, even though many of your criticisms may be accurate, you completely ignore the fact that last year per 40 minutes Rajon Rondo was #1 in the league in assists. He was also among the top dozen rebounding PGs. & he's also a good 2pt shooter not a bad one. & if relying 100% on numbers doesn't work for you, I'd say it's more likely to reveal something than describing a guy who scores 4 fewer points per 40 minutes than an average PG while using 5 fewer possessions than an average PG by saying he "doesn't score." Or, for that matter to characterize the league leader in assists by saying that he "still passes pretty well." Come on. It's fair to ask whether he fits in the top 20.

2. You were right: the Bulls weren't as good in 2016-17 as I thought they might be. They went 41-41. The Celtics beat them in 6 games in R1 (before beating us in R2 in 7). But, tell me this: do you also remember all the times I'm right?

3. Your "list" of who you expect to do well in the coming year -- that's great. There can be a lot of reasons to expect someone to do better than in the past. Why not? Or worse for that matter.

To take one example, Darren Collison had a tremendous year last year. How would you or I know whether he will or won't repeat that? Or, for that matter, get better? Or, get worse? The only place to look is to his past.

If we don't, if instead we say something like "I know how good a player X is, so I'm confident he'll be good this year," then -- I hope this is obvious, Dat -- what we are saying is that a player is good because he's good. I.e. we aren't saying anything at all.

It's what a player does on the court that makes him good. It's not the opposite. You may not like to see what a player does on the court expressed in numbers, but I'm still waiting for a better measure. That can be relied on.

As to playoff performance, sure -- if there's a player who's better in the playoffs than he is in the regular season, lets get him & lets play him a lot in the playoffs! Duh.

When you say that Lillard fell off in the playoffs, I'm guessing you mean that his numbers fell off. If you like John in the playoffs, I'm guessing you like the numbers he puts up. In fact, I believe you've actually said just that: praised him b/c come playoff time he can be counted on for "26 & 13."

So... I guess numbers are the decider after all, huh?

[NatP4]

If minny really is only asking for PJ Tucker and Eric Gordon, why would we not offer up Oubre+1st round pick?

Wall Sato
Beal Rivers
Butler Brown Jr
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

[NatP4]

It’s jimmy f’ing Butler...

[JWizmentality]

If minny really is only asking for PJ Tucker and Eric Gordon, why would we not offer up Oubre+1st round pick?

Wall Sato
Beal Rivers
Butler Brown Jr
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Sigh...that would be awesome.

[pcbothwel]

If minny really is only asking for PJ Tucker and Eric Gordon, why would we not offer up Oubre+1st round pick?

Wall Sato
Beal Rivers
Butler Brown Jr
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Sigh...that would be awesome.

1) We dont know if this is true
2) Thibs has zero foresight and probably values Gordon more than a 1st and Tucker more than Oubre.

Thibs would want Beal or Otto.
I love Otto, and really question how the team dynamic changes with Butler in for Otto... Dont think it works.
Also, I think Otto loves DC and really has a great role here. I think he would opt out and sign a new 4/100M deal after next year if things are going well.

No way I trade Beal. I think our new pace and a healthy Wall will bring back the player we saw two years ago offensively...
And defensively, Brooks always said he was incredibly impressed by Beal. Some Scoffed at that, but you can see the improvement last year and more so now.
I think this year he cements himself as the 3rd best SG in the NBA (Dipo and Butler)... Top 5 at worst

Again, Im buying this team. I think our new found pace will be the biggest boom that is not really talked about. Our Stars compliment each other and like the city, our young guys are basketball players that see the floor and make high IQ plays (Brown/Sato), and our vets are all expiring... Besides the GOAT Sniper that is Ian Hibachi

[verbal8]

If minny really is only asking for PJ Tucker and Eric Gordon, why would we not offer up Oubre+1st round pick?

Wall Sato
Beal Rivers
Butler Brown Jr
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Sigh...that would be awesome.

Yeah that would be great.

I would think the Rockets would be adding picks(swaps at the very least).

I think it would be slightly more than Oubre and a pick since Heat's package of Josh Richardson and a pick was turned down.

[dangermouse]

If minny really is only asking for PJ Tucker and Eric Gordon, why would we not offer up Oubre+1st round pick?

Wall Sato
Beal Rivers
Butler Brown Jr
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

I honestly think that its just a bit of fake news put out by the Twolves to set the market for what they want in return, since the Heat package reportedly fell through.

[rl25g]

If minny really is only asking for PJ Tucker and Eric Gordon, why would we not offer up Oubre+1st round pick?

Wall Sato
Beal Rivers
Butler Brown Jr
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

Sigh...that would be awesome.

Yeah that would be great.

I would think the Rockets would be adding picks(swaps at the very least).

I think it would be slightly more than Oubre and a pick since Heat's package of Josh Richardson and a pick was turned down.

The thing about a proposed Miami deal is that Miami would also have to send out a bad contract (heard it was the hurt waiters who has 3 years left on his deal) to get a deal done.

In an Oubre/First deal we would be sending back expiring contracts.

So in some respect, an Oubre/Morris/Smith/First for Butler deal is not that bad of an offer and one I would do today.

[NatP4]

The wizards probably wouldn't put together any non Otto porter centered packages for Butler, they really actually think Morris is good and wouldn't want him to lose his place in the starting lineup.

[verbal8]

Sigh...that would be awesome.

Yeah that would be great.

I would think the Rockets would be adding picks(swaps at the very least).

I think it would be slightly more than Oubre and a pick since Heat's package of Josh Richardson and a pick was turned down.

The thing about a proposed Miami deal is that Miami would also have to send out a bad contract (heard it was the hurt waiters who has 3 years left on his deal) to get a deal done.

In an Oubre/First deal we would be sending back expiring contracts.

So in some respect, an Oubre/Morris/Smith/First for Butler deal is not that bad of an offer and one I would do today.

Rivers is an easy piece to include as a filler.

[NatP4]

We NEED Jimmy Butler on this team. This guy is 100% no bull. He would either change the culture completely, or get sick of it within the first 2 weeks and trigger a blow up in DC when he sees that people aren’t serious about winning.

Every team needs a leader like that.

[pcbothwel]

We NEED Jimmy Butler on this team. This guy is 100% no bull. He would either change the culture completely, or get sick of it within the first 2 weeks and trigger a blow up in DC when he sees that people aren’t serious about winning.

Every team needs a leader like that.

Man... a Mahinmi, Oubre, 1st package would be amazing... But never happen.
Celtics and Toronto have the names... but there are serious concerns with Leonard and Hayward.
Leonard is 6'7 with long arms and missed two dunks the other night... he is not the same player as two years ago.
Im not sure how much better he is than Demar + Poetl package

Then you consider that Lowry is turning 33 in a few months. Outside of Stockton, here is a list of the greatest PG's and when they fell off:
Isiah Thomas: 31/32
Payton: 35/36
Billups: 34
Oscar: 33
KJ: 32
Hardaway: 32
Kidd: 36/37
Nash: 36/37
CP3: 32 and counting

The players who were good into their mid 30's (Payton, Billups, Kidd) were all 6'4, long, athletic, etc. Now Nash and CP3 are the opposite, but they might be a cut above Lowry as far as talent...And Nash's Defense fell off pretty bad in his 30's.

All the smaller guys who are in Lowrys class of talent all fell off at 32ish. IT, Tim Hardaway, Deron Williams, Kevin Johnson, etc.
So we'll see

[WallToWall]

Regarding Butler... nothing like gettin' crazed in practice in order to force a trade.
He saw no movement on his trade request and decided to force the hand. Good news for the Wizards is that Butler may have lowered his perceived value to the point where he can be attained by the Wizards.

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[Dark Faze]

We NEED Jimmy Butler on this team. This guy is 100% no bull. He would either change the culture completely, or get sick of it within the first 2 weeks and trigger a blow up in DC when he sees that people aren’t serious about winning.

Every team needs a leader like that.

Would be embarrassing to lose him to the rumored deal of Waiters + Richardson + Protected first. The Waiters contract is basically Mahinmi.

[Ruzious]

We NEED Jimmy Butler on this team. This guy is 100% no bull. He would either change the culture completely, or get sick of it within the first 2 weeks and trigger a blow up in DC when he sees that people aren’t serious about winning.

Every team needs a leader like that.

Thing is, he's being the opposite of a leader right now because of one thing - he's still demanding a trade. It makes his crazy I'm the man act an epic fail. Why should his teammates even want to play with him when they know he doesn't want to be there?

[pcbothwel]

We NEED Jimmy Butler on this team. This guy is 100% no bull. He would either change the culture completely, or get sick of it within the first 2 weeks and trigger a blow up in DC when he sees that people aren’t serious about winning.

Every team needs a leader like that.

Would be embarrassing to lose him to the rumored deal of Waiters + Richardson + Protected first. The Waiters contract is basically Mahinmi.

Zero question. Rather have Mahinmi. Shorter contract and he knows his role. does it well.
Waiters is a low IQ chucker that will give you one great game, yet kill you in the next 3

[payitforward]

Yeah that would be great.

I would think the Rockets would be adding picks(swaps at the very least).

I think it would be slightly more than Oubre and a pick since Heat's package of Josh Richardson and a pick was turned down.

The thing about a proposed Miami deal is that Miami would also have to send out a bad contract (heard it was the hurt waiters who has 3 years left on his deal) to get a deal done.

In an Oubre/First deal we would be sending back expiring contracts.

So in some respect, an Oubre/Morris/Smith/First for Butler deal is not that bad of an offer and one I would do today.

Rivers is an easy piece to include as a filler.

Nobody wants Austin Rivers. Unless they're getting rid of someone with a "must go today" sign on him (like the one Ernie put on Gortat).

[payitforward]

We NEED Jimmy Butler on this team. This guy is 100% no bull. He would either change the culture completely, or get sick of it within the first 2 weeks and trigger a blow up in DC when he sees that people aren’t serious about winning.

Every team needs a leader like that.

Would be embarrassing to lose him to the rumored deal of Waiters + Richardson + Protected first. The Waiters contract is basically Mahinmi.

Zero question. Rather have Mahinmi. Shorter contract and he knows his role. does it well.
Waiters is a low IQ chucker that will give you one great game, yet kill you in the next 3

Waiters is a terrible player, always has been.

There's no point in our acquiring Jimmy Butler, however, unless we can move either Beal or Wall in the deal (or Otto... but no thanks). He's not going to pick up his option, & even if he did we'd be way over the cap w/ 5 players. We certainly couldn't afford to sign him to a new contract.

[DCZards]

Regarding Butler... nothing like gettin' crazed in practice in order to force a trade.
He saw no movement on his trade request and decided to force the hand. Good news for the Wizards is that Butler may have lowered his perceived value to the point where he can be attained by the Wizards.

Butler no doubt hurt his trade value with his behavior and remarks this week. Yes, some teams and GMs will see what Butler did as leadership but others will want no part of his attitude.