(#1) Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

We vote the #1 best defensive shooting guard of all time.
EVERYBODY CAN PARTECIPATE.

Those are the links for the Point Guards.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

And this is where it started
Idea

And this is where we listed the candidates. I opened a poll where butler, thabo, andre roberson and dan majerle came out as SGs. Iguodala, Bowen, Stepehn Jackson are SFs

Candidates list

What do you think about how this is going so far? Well obviously for the last spots the partecipation dropped (well, I hope that was the reason), but I think this is going well.

Anyway these are the candidates

Bill Sharman (Washington Capitols, 1951/1961, All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Tom Gola (Philadelphia Warriors, San Francisco Warriors, Knicks, 1956/1966 All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Jerry Sloan (Bullets, Bulls, 1966/1976, X6 All-Defensive)

Don Chaney (Lakers, St.Louis Spirits, 1969/1980, X5 All-Defensive)

Lionel Hollins (Blazers, 76ers, San Diego Clippers, Pistons, Rockets, 1976/1985, X2 All-Defensive)

Eddie Johnson (Hawks, Cavs, Supersonics, 1978/1987, X2 All-Defensive)

T.R. Dunn (Portland, Denver, Phoenix, 1978/1991, X3 All-Defensive)

Michael Cooper (Lakers, 1979-1990, X8 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Sidney Moncrief (Bucks, Hawks, 1980-1991, X5 All-Defensive, X2 DPOY)

Fat Lever (Blazers, Nuggets, Mavs, 1983/1994, X1 All-Defensive)

Alvin Robertson (Spurs, Bucks, Pistons, Raptors, 1985/1996 X6 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Michael Jordan (Bulls, Wizards, 1985/2003, X9 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Joe Dumars (Pistons, 1986/1999, X5 All-Defensive)

Dan Majerle (Suns, Cavs, Heat, 1989/2002, X2 All-Defensive)

John Starks (Warriors, Knicks, Bulls, Jazz, 1989/2002, X1 All-Defensive)

Vernon Maxwell (Spurs, Rockets, 76ers, Magic, Hornets, Kings, SuperSonics, Mavs, 1989/2001)

Mitch Richmond (Warriors, Kings, Wizards, Lakers, 1989/2002)

Jaren Jackson Sr (Nets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Rockets, Bullets, Spurs, Magic, 1990/2002)

Nick Anderson (Magic, Kings, Grizzlies, 1990/2002)

Bobby Phills (Cavs, Hornets, 1992/2000, X1 All-Defensive)

Stacey Augmon (Hawks, Pistons, Blazers, Hornets, Magic, 1992/2006)

Latrell Sprewell (Warriors, Knicks, Timberwolves, 1993/2005, X1 All-Defensive)

Doug Christie (Lakers, Knicks, Raptors, Kings, Magic, Mavs, Clippers, 1993/2007, X4 All-Defensive)

Aaron Mckie (Blazers, Pistons, 76ers, Lakers, 1995/2007)

Eddie Jones (Lakers, Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies, Mavs, 1995/2008, X3 All-Defensive)

Kobe Bryant (Lakers, 1997/2016, X12 All-Defensive)

Raja Bell (76ers, Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Hornets, Warrios, 2001-2012, X2 All-Defensive)

Manu Ginobili (Spurs, 2003/2018)

Wade (Heat, Bulls, Cavs, 2004/2018, X3 All-Defensive)

Tony Allen (Celtics, Grizzlies, Pelicans, 2005/2018, X6 All-Defensive)

Thabo Sefolosha (Bulls, OKC, Atlanta, Utah, 2007/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Danny Green (Cavs, Spurs, 2010/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Avery Bradley (Celtics, Pistons, Clippers, 2011/2018, X2 All-Defensive)

Jimmy Butler (Bulls, Timberwolves, 2012/2018, X4 All-Defensive)

Klay Thompson (Warriors, 2012/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Victor Oladipo (Orlando, Okc, Indiana, 2014/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Marcus smart (Boston Celtics, 2015/2018)

Andre Roberson (OKC, 2015/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

[Gibson22]

Hi guys, we arrived to the number one spot for the second role, the shooting guards. I'd be happy if some of you wanted to partecipate. Please read the rules, even if the title alone tells you enough about the project

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[Dr Positivity]

Vote Michael Jordan

I have him and Moncrief as the highest peaks. So longevity decides it

[mdonnelly1989]

I'm pretty certain this is going to be a 3 way between Tony Allen, MJ and Moncrief

[OdomFan]

Michael Jordan is the number 1 Shooting Guard period.

[Luigi]

I'm voting Tony Allen. It's hard to beat a specialist of his caliber on this. He was absolutely oppressive.

[SHAQ32]

Tony Allen is sort of in the same boat as Nate McMillan for me. Great impact stats and while they were out on the floor they might be the best at their position, but I just can't put them ahead of other defensive greats that were playing 10+ minutes more per game for longer periods of time.

So it comes down to Robertson, Moncrief and Jordan for me. Going Michael Jordan for 2 reasons -- he has the DPOY like Sid and the advanced metrics like Alvin, but he has the size advantage at 6'6 to their listed 6'3; and he also was putting up those godly offensive stats. I know this is just about defense, but at the same time that can't completely be ignored.

[Dr Positivity]

Per minute he has a case but Tony Allen only plays like 25 minutes and his prime is like 5-6 years. I think MJ defensive value for his career is higher

I have read that Robertson's style of defense is gambling. It makes sense the nearly 4 steals would impress people to get DPOY but unless proven otherwise I'm going to be a bit lower on his style of D.

[penbeast0]

From the eye test, I will go with Sidney Moncrief. Sid was the best shutdown man defender I've ever seen, adept at closing out on shooters, strong enough to deal with post up wings, and quick enough to stay with even the jet PGs. He didn't play the passing lanes like some of the other great wings but, despite his offensive responsibilities as the leading scorer on some very good Bucks teams, he was relentless defensively, not coasting or using defense to rest. During his prime, he led a Bucks team with mediocre defensive bigs to the best defense in the league. The Bucks used a center by committee with Bob Lanier or Paul Mokeski as the offensive platoon and Harvey Catchings or Alton Lister as the defensive platoon and yet, in that 5 year stretch, were the best defense twice and the 2nd best twice for Don Nelson, one of the first open advocates of small ball.

Moncrief's healthy prime was short, only about 5 years, and occasional players like Michael Jordan could step up and play Moncrief level man defense for stretches but even peak Jordan failed to maintain the consistent relentless aggression Moncrief exhibited. Part of it was because even though Moncrief was the leading scorers on his teams in his prime, Jordan's offensive burden was appreciably heavier. But part of it was Jordan's mentality; he needed a challenge to get his juices flowing and if he didn't feel that aggression, he would slack off defensively. Moncrief's mentality was different, he stayed at a much more constant level and though Jordan could psych himself up to that level (and was better in the passing lanes), Sid was at peak Jordan level in man coverage all the time where Michael only got there occasionally (though more often in the playoffs which should matter as well).

[penbeast0]

How much greater than Tony Allen you think he was?

I like Moncrief significantly better for man defense which to me is the key to guarding the 2 since that's traditionally been the shooter spot in the league (not necessarily the scorer spot but most often the best shooter). Quicker, longer (his reach was ridiculously long for his height, he played more like a 6-6 type of wing), more chest to chest; Allen is stronger, more physical, and gambles more for steals which can lead to fast breaks or burns.

[Johnny Firpo]

Sidney Moncrief for me.

[iggymcfrack]

Voting for Sidney Moncrief. It’s tough to tell exactly how good defensively the guys were pre-impact stats, but the picture adds up to pretty elite impact for Sid.

-Bucks were always at least Top 6 in defense every season while he was playing heavy minutes.

-Won back-to-back DPOY awards.

-Ranks 6th overall on Backpicks WOWY despite a mediocre offensive resume.

Seems like a pretty unassailable resume to me. Only thing that he’s really missing is longevity, but he’s still got more MP than Tony Allen and he really wouldn’t be that far behind Jordan if you take out the last years when he wasn’t really playing D.

[Lost92Bricks]

Michael Jordan. Whenever you can, as a basketball fan you should watch his playoff runs when he was at his peak. He was everywhere. His lateral quickness is amazing, he gets a ton of steals and deflections, and he is the best shotblocking guard ever.

And resume-wise, he made 9 All-Defensive teams, won a DPOY and led the league in steals 3 times.

[KTM_2813]

Tony Allen gets my vote. Certainly the best defensive guard I have ever seen. Perhaps not the logical choice due to number of minutes played, but I will go with my gut regardless.

P.S. Thank you for inviting me to this project!

[Samurai]

My vote is for Sidney Moncrief. He is the only player on this list of candidates with more than one DPOY award. Moncrief, Rodman and Leonard are the only non-centers in the history of the DPOY award to win back-to-back awards. And if such an award existed, I think he would have had a good chance of winning in 82, which would have made him a 3-peat winner.

[PistolPeteJR]

Moncrief for reasons mentioned. Struggled between him and Alvin Robertson. The latter will get my vote for #2.

Guys, we all know MJ was an excellent defender. But enough already. Definitely not #1 or #2.

[PistolPeteJR]

Why is Oladipo on the poll lmaoo

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Jordan was not in full defensive mode all of the time. If I was judging peak crunch time defense I would probably pick Jordan.

Was Moncrief in in full effort defense mode more than Jordan? jordan had offensive responibilities and needed to pace himself some. Moncrief also had offensive responsibilities but I think Moncrief had more help on offense.

Moncrief was smaller than Jordan.

Edit, I see That Penbeast addressed these point. I could not remember whether Moncrief was always on his defensive game.

Vote Moncrief

[cecilthesheep]

I vote for Sidney Moncrief. People up the thread have outlined why really well, to the point where I don't feel like I'd be adding anything by repeating stuff. I will say, the way he played perfect shutdown man defense without taking any cheap gambles is specifically what puts him head and shoulders above everyone else.

Tony Allen is recency bias imo. Moncrief was just better, as was Cooper, and probably Robertson and Jordan too. Look up some film of Moncrief if you don't know much about him.