2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread

[jinxed]

Can someone tell me why Doncic is seen as "unathletic"? Everytime I see him play, Doncic is getting to his spots on the floor and driving to the rim in transistion with ease. He gets plenty of separation on his step-back jumpshot too. His defense is pretty bad off-ball (he gambles too much for steals like every other rookie), but that has nothing to do with athleticism.

It will be interesting to see what kind of athlete he can become if he slims down. The Mavs say he could lose 15 pounds .

[Kabookalu]

Can someone tell me why Doncic is seen as "unathletic"? Everytime I see him play, Doncic is getting to his spots on the floor and driving to the rim in transistion with ease. He gets plenty of separation on his step-back jumpshot too. His defense is pretty bad off-ball (he gambles too much for steals like every other rookie), but that has nothing to do with athleticism.

His lack of athleticism is definitely overrated, the same way it was for Larry Bird and Steve Nash. I've always valued coordination and body control more than vertical and speed, and those two aforementioned excelled at that. While a guy like Kendall Marshall was really slow, what really inhibited him was that he had zero fluidity and coordination for an NBA player. The guy moved like a tank.

[edit] ugh, I meant to say overstated not overrated.

[perempe20]

who are the suprise keepers before the start of the season? not just rookies count. (didn't want to make a new thread.)

[Kabookalu]

who are the suprise keepers before the start of the season? not just rookies count. (didn't want to make a new thread.)

I've decided to skip out on fantasy this year, so I don't know where players are ranked, though I expect big things out of Jerami Grant this year now that Melo is gone. He had an underwhelming preseason, but he had a solid season last year. If he was available he'd be someone I'd stash on my bench.

[Dundalis]

Can someone tell me why Doncic is seen as "unathletic"? Everytime I see him play, Doncic is getting to his spots on the floor and driving to the rim in transistion with ease. He gets plenty of separation on his step-back jumpshot too. His defense is pretty bad off-ball (he gambles too much for steals like every other rookie), but that has nothing to do with athleticism.

I personally think the opposite about his defense. Every great ball thief gambles too much and causes gaps in the defense, this is not in any way restricted to rookies. He's very disruptive as an off ball defender, which is fantastic. That's absolutely what you want and I would absolutely classify his on ball defense as a plus. You can argue about getting the balance right, but I think he's been pretty smart about it on the whole. His on ball defense is much less impressive, but given everyone thought he'd be a revolving door, it's been adequate, which is something to be encouraged by.

Can someone tell me why Doncic is seen as "unathletic"? Everytime I see him play, Doncic is getting to his spots on the floor and driving to the rim in transistion with ease. He gets plenty of separation on his step-back jumpshot too. His defense is pretty bad off-ball (he gambles too much for steals like every other rookie), but that has nothing to do with athleticism.

he has trouble beating people off the dribble in half-court sets. athletic wing defenders give him trouble at times. his stepback is a great tool, but there were times at real madrid that he was forced into relying on it too much and forcing bad shots because of his inability to take someone off the dribble. his craftiness can make up for a great deal of that, and it's might be overstated at this point, but it is something to watch with him going forward.

I don't think the beating defenders off the dribble thing is a problem, because it's not like he can't do it, he just can't do it consistently. Given the fact that he won't be relied on to iso anywhere near as much as in Europe, garnering a lot more spot up looks, plus the fact that he should improve as a shooter, which should make that step back 3 more consistent, not to mention the arsenal of other offensive moves he hasn't really shown off much like the mid range and the floater, I can't see it hindering him that much. Plus I'm hoping he has the body tranformation after 2 or 3 years like some other European prospects have had, which should only give him a little more explosion athletically.

[alessandrux]

who are the suprise keepers before the start of the season? not just rookies count. (didn't want to make a new thread.)

I've decided to skip out on fantasy this year, so I don't know where players are ranked, though I expect big things out of Jerami Grant this year now that Melo is gone. He had an underwhelming preseason, but he had a solid season last year. If he was available he'd be someone I'd stash on my bench.

As an OKC fan I partly disagree.
He might be awesome (I hope so), but for me he seems like a huge risk (depending where you pick him; he will definitely see a lot of minutes though). In my opinion most of what he does has a very small margin of error, and when/if defensive schemes are able to figure him out/disrupt him slightly but enough to offset him he might be bad, really bad. He plays very unorthodox, so that might cloud my opinion of him and he (and his unorthodoxness) might be impossible to defend.


Regarding rookies and keepers, Hamidou Diallo(OKC) might be a keeper (also depending where you pick him and what you expect out of him).
Roberson is out until at least december, Westbrook might have decreased minutes at the beginning of the season, which means Schröder will see most of his minutes at the point guard spot. Therefore we have to fill the minutes at the 2 somehow and Diallo has shown something in pre-season. If he keeps playing good he will receive minutes (and with Westbrook out he will also get some touches of the ball).

By the way I would appreciate it, if you (prempe20) make a thread regarding 'surprise keepers', there will be a lot of interest.

[Sactowndog]

Can someone tell me why Doncic is seen as "unathletic"? Everytime I see him play, Doncic is getting to his spots on the floor and driving to the rim in transistion with ease. He gets plenty of separation on his step-back jumpshot too. His defense is pretty bad off-ball (he gambles too much for steals like every other rookie), but that has nothing to do with athleticism.

he has trouble beating people off the dribble in half-court sets. athletic wing defenders give him trouble at times. his stepback is a great tool, but there were times at real madrid that he was forced into relying on it too much and forcing bad shots because of his inability to take someone off the dribble. his craftiness can make up for a great deal of that, and it's might be overstated at this point, but it is something to watch with him going forward.

Long athletic defenders who press him have given him challenges. Given he is playing the four it will be interesting to see him matched up against Bagley. I think he is showing enough talent teams will plan for him defensively and not give him space. It will be interesting how he reacts and if he has the ability to get by them.

[John Murdoch]

He looks like a cross between Gallinari and Rubio

[petebraun0]

Seems like Ayton will win roy. doncic 2nd, and I'd love to see Carter third. With Lopez sucking, Carter will start and get huge amounts of playing time. He will find his game quickly. Dunn just needs to learn how to feed Carter.

[PhilBlackson]

Wendell Carter quietly looks like he'll be one of the best picks in this draft, something very "Horford-like" about him.

[BAMAFREAK]

Wendell Carter quietly looks like he'll be one of the best picks in this draft, something very "Horford-like" about him.

He looks about as expected, as do many other rookies, on a limited/barely even registering sample size. Looks like he got picked in about the right spot. Everybody knew he was going to be a solid player, with less risk but lower ceiling than the guys above him. I’d say that still holds true.
Ayton was the top dog and is playing as such.
Bagley pick was questioned and will be for a while.
Doncic looks great, not much explosion but he doesn’t rely on that. Great player
JJJ is raw but probably has the highest ceiling of any guy here. Has shown he can score inside and out and alter any bodies shot. Has to stop fouling.
Young is showing big time playmaking skills and we know he can shoot.
Haven’t heard much on Bamba but his potential is through the roof.
Outside of Bagley I doubt many Gms would trade any of those guys for Carter

[nolang1]

Wendell Carter quietly looks like he'll be one of the best picks in this draft, something very "Horford-like" about him.

He looks about as expected, as do many other rookies, on a limited/barely even registering sample size. Looks like he got picked in about the right spot. Everybody knew he was going to be a solid player, with less risk but lower ceiling than the guys above him. I’d say that still holds true.
Ayton was the top dog and is playing as such.
Bagley pick was questioned and will be for a while.
Doncic looks great, not much explosion but he doesn’t rely on that. Great player
JJJ is raw but probably has the highest ceiling of any guy here. Has shown he can score inside and out and alter any bodies shot. Has to stop fouling.
Young is showing big time playmaking skills and we know he can shoot.
Haven’t heard much on Bamba but his potential is through the roof.
Outside of Bagley I doubt many Gms would trade any of those guys for Carter

Per 36 in preseason:
Carter/Bagley
points: 11.7 / 19.5
rebounds: 9.3 / 10.3
assists: 3.7 / 1.3
steals: 1.3 / 0.8
blocks: 0.7 / 1.3
fouls: 5.7 / 1.8
turnovers: 2.0 / 1.5

This 'Bagley is a bust' narrative is really gonna persist in the face of actual evidence.

[Dan Z]

Wendell Carter quietly looks like he'll be one of the best picks in this draft, something very "Horford-like" about him.

He looks about as expected, as do many other rookies, on a limited/barely even registering sample size. Looks like he got picked in about the right spot. Everybody knew he was going to be a solid player, with less risk but lower ceiling than the guys above him. I’d say that still holds true.
Ayton was the top dog and is playing as such.
Bagley pick was questioned and will be for a while.
Doncic looks great, not much explosion but he doesn’t rely on that. Great player
JJJ is raw but probably has the highest ceiling of any guy here. Has shown he can score inside and out and alter any bodies shot. Has to stop fouling.
Young is showing big time playmaking skills and we know he can shoot.
Haven’t heard much on Bamba but his potential is through the roof.
Outside of Bagley I doubt many Gms would trade any of those guys for Carter

Per 36 in preseason:
Carter/Bagley
points: 11.7 / 19.5
rebounds: 9.3 / 10.3
assists: 3.7 / 1.3
steals: 1.3 / 0.8
blocks: 0.7 / 1.3
fouls: 5.7 / 1.8
turnovers: 2.0 / 1.5

This 'Bagley is a bust' narrative is really gonna persist in the face of actual evidence.

What does Wendell Carter Jr have to do with Bagley being a bust or not?

Also, where did you get those stats? I'm curious to see their FG% and non per 36 stats.

[nolang1]

He looks about as expected, as do many other rookies, on a limited/barely even registering sample size. Looks like he got picked in about the right spot. Everybody knew he was going to be a solid player, with less risk but lower ceiling than the guys above him. I’d say that still holds true.
Ayton was the top dog and is playing as such.
Bagley pick was questioned and will be for a while.
Doncic looks great, not much explosion but he doesn’t rely on that. Great player
JJJ is raw but probably has the highest ceiling of any guy here. Has shown he can score inside and out and alter any bodies shot. Has to stop fouling.
Young is showing big time playmaking skills and we know he can shoot.
Haven’t heard much on Bamba but his potential is through the roof.
Outside of Bagley I doubt many Gms would trade any of those guys for Carter

Per 36 in preseason:
Carter/Bagley
points: 11.7 / 19.5
rebounds: 9.3 / 10.3
assists: 3.7 / 1.3
steals: 1.3 / 0.8
blocks: 0.7 / 1.3
fouls: 5.7 / 1.8
turnovers: 2.0 / 1.5

This 'Bagley is a bust' narrative is really gonna persist in the face of actual evidence.

What does Wendell Carter Jr have to do with Bagley being a bust or not?

Also, where did you get those stats? I'm curious to see their FG% and non per 36 stats.

Doesn't seem like you are reading too well. Let me explain the thread of comments in greater detail: first, someone stated that Carter looked like one of the best picks in the draft. Then, someone stated that Carter and the rookies drafted above him have looked about as expected so far and that other than Bagley (who they asserted was a questionable pick/bust in the making), most GMs would rather have the guys taken above Carter - in other words, that Carter looks like he'll become a very good player but it'd be hard to consider him much of a 'steal' as his standing among other rookies is more or less in line with where he was drafted. Then, I posted some actual stats from preseason that showed that Bagley is doing quite alright and that the perception of him being a potential bust is more due to the organization that drafted him than how he actually produces on the court compared to the other rookies.

Wendell Carter had a TS% of .491 and Bagley's was .506; both players shot about 45% from the field but Bagley got to the line much more frequently. Carter averaged 21 minutes per game in preseason and Bagley averaged 24 minutes. I found these numbers by typing 'wendell carter preseason stats' and 'marvin bagley preseason stats' into Google, clicking on a page that had those stats, and doing some basic arithmetic to convert their numbers to per 36.

[getrichordie]

It’s hard to see WCJ putting up better numbers than Ayton.

Only real competition I see for Ayton is going to be Doncic and maybe Young. Only reason I say Young is because if he can catch fire hitting his 3s this year, he suddenly looks like the next Curry. Young’s vision is underrated but he’s also undersized so he needs to his 3s because he’s going to get toasted on defense.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[Dan Z]

Per 36 in preseason:
Carter/Bagley
points: 11.7 / 19.5
rebounds: 9.3 / 10.3
assists: 3.7 / 1.3
steals: 1.3 / 0.8
blocks: 0.7 / 1.3
fouls: 5.7 / 1.8
turnovers: 2.0 / 1.5

This 'Bagley is a bust' narrative is really gonna persist in the face of actual evidence.

What does Wendell Carter Jr have to do with Bagley being a bust or not?

Also, where did you get those stats? I'm curious to see their FG% and non per 36 stats.

Doesn't seem like you are reading too well. Let me explain the thread of comments in greater detail: first, someone stated that Carter looked like one of the best picks in the draft. Then, someone stated that Carter and the rookies drafted above him have looked about as expected so far and that other than Bagley (who they asserted was a questionable pick/bust in the making), most GMs would rather have the guys taken above Carter - in other words, that Carter looks like he'll become a very good player but it'd be hard to consider him much of a 'steal' as his standing among other rookies is more or less in line with where he was drafted. Then, I posted some actual stats from preseason that showed that Bagley is doing quite alright and that the perception of him being a potential bust is more due to the organization that drafted him than how he actually produces on the court compared to the other rookies.

Wendell Carter had a TS% of .491 and Bagley's was .506; both players shot about 45% from the field but Bagley got to the line much more frequently. Carter averaged 21 minutes per game in preseason and Bagley averaged 24 minutes. I found these numbers by typing 'wendell carter preseason stats' and 'marvin bagley preseason stats' into Google, clicking on a page that had those stats, and doing some basic arithmetic to convert their numbers to per 36.

PhilBlackson said "Wendell Carter quietly looks like he'll be one of the best picks in this draft, something very "Horford-like" about him."

Nothing in his post specifically mentions Bagley.

Then BAMBAFREAK said this about Carter Jr.: "He looks about as expected".

When he gets to Bagley he said: "Bagley pick was questioned and will be for a while. "

Nobody was comparing the two until you did.

As for their stats I did a Google search too and the first 5 results came up with nothing. However NBA.com has stats for both players on different pages of their website (both without per 36 stats). That's why I asked you were you got your information.

[nolang1]

What does Wendell Carter Jr have to do with Bagley being a bust or not?

Also, where did you get those stats? I'm curious to see their FG% and non per 36 stats.

Doesn't seem like you are reading too well. Let me explain the thread of comments in greater detail: first, someone stated that Carter looked like one of the best picks in the draft. Then, someone stated that Carter and the rookies drafted above him have looked about as expected so far and that other than Bagley (who they asserted was a questionable pick/bust in the making), most GMs would rather have the guys taken above Carter - in other words, that Carter looks like he'll become a very good player but it'd be hard to consider him much of a 'steal' as his standing among other rookies is more or less in line with where he was drafted. Then, I posted some actual stats from preseason that showed that Bagley is doing quite alright and that the perception of him being a potential bust is more due to the organization that drafted him than how he actually produces on the court compared to the other rookies.

Wendell Carter had a TS% of .491 and Bagley's was .506; both players shot about 45% from the field but Bagley got to the line much more frequently. Carter averaged 21 minutes per game in preseason and Bagley averaged 24 minutes. I found these numbers by typing 'wendell carter preseason stats' and 'marvin bagley preseason stats' into Google, clicking on a page that had those stats, and doing some basic arithmetic to convert their numbers to per 36.

PhilBlackson said "Wendell Carter quietly looks like he'll be one of the best picks in this draft, something very "Horford-like" about him."

Nothing in his post specifically mentions Bagley.

Then BAMBAFREAK said this about Carter Jr.: "He looks about as expected".

When he gets to Bagley he said: "Bagley pick was questioned and will be for a while. "

Nobody was comparing the two until you did.

As for their stats I did a Google search too and the first 5 results came up with nothing. However NBA.com has stats for both players on different pages of their website (both without per 36 stats). That's why I asked you were you got your information.

And then he went on to say "Outside of Bagley I doubt many Gms would trade any of those guys for Carter." Again, actually reading helps.

[Dan Z]

Doesn't seem like you are reading too well. Let me explain the thread of comments in greater detail: first, someone stated that Carter looked like one of the best picks in the draft. Then, someone stated that Carter and the rookies drafted above him have looked about as expected so far and that other than Bagley (who they asserted was a questionable pick/bust in the making), most GMs would rather have the guys taken above Carter - in other words, that Carter looks like he'll become a very good player but it'd be hard to consider him much of a 'steal' as his standing among other rookies is more or less in line with where he was drafted. Then, I posted some actual stats from preseason that showed that Bagley is doing quite alright and that the perception of him being a potential bust is more due to the organization that drafted him than how he actually produces on the court compared to the other rookies.

Wendell Carter had a TS% of .491 and Bagley's was .506; both players shot about 45% from the field but Bagley got to the line much more frequently. Carter averaged 21 minutes per game in preseason and Bagley averaged 24 minutes. I found these numbers by typing 'wendell carter preseason stats' and 'marvin bagley preseason stats' into Google, clicking on a page that had those stats, and doing some basic arithmetic to convert their numbers to per 36.

PhilBlackson said "Wendell Carter quietly looks like he'll be one of the best picks in this draft, something very "Horford-like" about him."

Nothing in his post specifically mentions Bagley.

Then BAMBAFREAK said this about Carter Jr.: "He looks about as expected".

When he gets to Bagley he said: "Bagley pick was questioned and will be for a while. "

Nobody was comparing the two until you did.

As for their stats I did a Google search too and the first 5 results came up with nothing. However NBA.com has stats for both players on different pages of their website (both without per 36 stats). That's why I asked you were you got your information.

And then he went on to say "Outside of Bagley I doubt many Gms would trade any of those guys for Carter." Again, reading helps.

Sorry that I missed that. I don't see why either player should be compared. Bagley was ranked higher than Carter throughout college and into the draft. It makes sense that he went #2 overall.

I agree that Bagley gets unfair criticism, but one reason for that is because the Kings picked him over Doncic.

[KrisPol]

In my opinion Ayton is a clear number one pick for the award, he'll get the minutes, the opportunity, he looks ready, he looks like he can stuff the statsheet.

[Catchall]

He looks like a cross between Gallinari and Rubio

Actually, he looks like he's got some James Harden in him, imo.