trex_8063 wrote:SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:
Wilt had more offensive impact than anybody.
I feel like this statement needs some qualifying. Unless we're conflating offensive
production with offensive
impact. If you're using the terms interchangeably, then I semantically disagree but otherwise would not argue against you. But if you indeed mean "impact" as most of us interpret the word, then I just don't see it (or even close to it).
In '60, with the addition of rookie (MVP) Wilt Chamberlain, the Warriors's rORTG improves by only a modest +1.1 (from -3.5 to a still pretty poor -2.4--->ranked 7th of 8 teams). They had basically the exact same roster as in '59, except that Wilt was added. And on paper, the offensive supporting cast doesn't appear awful. I mean, they were still allowing a fair number of minutes and shots to Woody Sauldsberry (who was horrid offensively), but they otherwise had Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, and Guy Rodgers (admittedly, I'm not near as high on Guy Rodgers as some appear to be, but just putting his name out there). If we're truly talking about the single greatest offensive impact player that basketball has EVER seen, how on Earth is he not able to lead an average offense (or even particularly close to it) with this cast? And why do they improve only a small amount by adding him?
In '61 they manage to improve by +1.5, to a still somewhat poor -0.9 rORTG. They'd gotten rid of Woody Sauldsberry (which might have a lot to do with the improvement, frankly); still have Arizin, Gola, and Rodgers (and no one as sapping of offense effectiveness as Sauldsberry was).......still a below average offense (ranked 6th of 8).
'
In ‘62, with Paul Arizin (aging, final season), Guy Rodgers, Tom Gola (a little banged up this year), 2nd-year Al Attles, and rookie Tom Mescherry, they go heavily to Wilt (his 50 ppgf season) and they finally manage an offense that is above average [barely] at +0.9 rORTG (4th of 9 teams).
In ‘63, Arizin has retired and Gola misses much of the year. They have a fair bit of roster shake-up as a result, adding in rookie Wayne Hightower, a half-season of Willie Naulls, a new bench wings in Gary Phillips and George Lee, and also some limited minutes from the offensively gifted forward Kenny Sears. And they still have Guy Rodgers, Al Attles, and Tom Mescherry as consistent big-minute players carried over from the previous year. The team rORTG again dips below average at -0.7 (5th of 9).
In ‘64 they have the same roster as in ‘63 except that Gola is now gone (he’d missed most of ‘63 anyway), and they’ve obtained rookie Nate Thurmond. The team does very well this year, but NOT on account of its offense (the basis of our discussion here). No, in fact, the offense was [again] a rather poor -1.6 rORTG (7th of 9 teams).
In ‘65, with largely the same roster, the quality of their play goes down the toilet, especially on offense. For the year, they were a -5.9 rORTG (dead last in the league). Now, Wilt was only around for half of that season, though it should be noted they were 11-33 in the 44 games before the trade (on pace for 20 wins), 10-28 in the 38 games he actually played in a Warriors uniform that year (on pace for 21 wins). They did average +4.9 ppg before the trade, though.
The Sixers, who Wilt was traded to mid-season, were 21-21 before the trade, 19-19 after the trade. They averaged 112.2 ppg before obtaining Wilt, 112.9 ppg after. The Sixers overall were a +0.5 rORTG (5th of 9 teams).
In ‘66---with a supporting cast of Hal Greer, Chet Walker, rookie Billy Cunningham, as well as minutes from passable offensive players such as Luke Jackson and Dave Gambee----Wilt led a barely above average +0.4 rORTG (though ranked just 6th of 9 teams).
****We’re now halfway thru his entire career, and yet to see any evidence that he is even a potential top 10 all-time in offensive impact, much less the GOAT in this respect.*****
In ‘67, with much the same supporting cast as in ‘66 (except they added some limited bench minutes from savvy veteran Larry Costello), we FINALLY see a legit elite Wilt-led offense: +5.4 rORTG. So it’s elite, and arguably even in an all-time sense: although it doesn’t even crack top 25 all-time, as measured by rORTG, it is the highest rORTG seen in the league prior to ‘71). Although it’s the first time we’ve seen something historic or elite offensively around Wilt, and with a pretty darn good offensive supporting cast, too (Greer/Walker/Cunningham is a heck of a trio for being #2-4 on the team).
The same basic cast would manage only a +1.3 rORTG in ‘68.
In ‘69, the Sixers trade Wilt away, getting Archie Clark and Darrall Imhoff in return…..and their rORTG
improves by +1.3 (to +2.6, 4th of 14 teams). It would remain just marginally better than their ‘68 rORTG for the following two seasons as well.
The Lakers were the team that received Wilt in ‘69 (again, trading away Archie Clark and Darrall Imhoff for him); they also got rid of Gail Goodrich, and obtained Keith Erickson and Johnny Egan that year. Perhaps also worth noting that they got 61 games out of Jerry West in ‘69, vs just 51 in ‘68. Their offense gets worse by -1.9 (dropping from +4.9 to +3.0); given all the player turnover, I’m not exactly sure how to interpret that. I will say it doesn’t even remotely suggest all-time great level offensive impact for Wilt.
In ‘70 Wilt misses most of the year. They obtained Happy Hairston this year (most of the season, too), and a rookies Dick Garrett and Rick Roberson also got serious playing time. It does reflect well on Wilt that their offense fell to a +0.1 rORTG (not reflective of anywhere near all-time greatest offensive impact, but still good).
In ‘71 Wilt is back for the full season (yes, I know we’re not really talking about truly prime-level Wilt anymore). An aging Baylor misses the whole year, but on the flip-side Gail Goodrich is back with the team. Roster is otherwise same as ‘70, except for limited minutes for rookie Jim McMillan. Their offense improves to +1.6 rORTG.
In ‘72 they have the same roster as in ‘71, except a somewhat improved 2nd-year McMillan is playing mroe. We again (for the 2nd and final time in Wilt’s career) see an elite-level offense (though not exactly one that is “led by” Wilt: he’s only 4th on the team in ppg and 3rd in apg [despite being first in mpg]).
And in his final season they’d be a +2.6 rORTG.
So certainly there’s [usually] indication of positive impact on offense (occasionally even substantially so); just nothing remotely close to GOAT offensive impact player.
LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad 
