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Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#41 » by IllMagic04 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:46 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:
YosemiteSam wrote:Josh Robbins answered my question in his mailbag:

https://theathletic.com/592443/ (subscription required)


My question to you is this... and maybe you can ask Josh Robbins his thoughts...

If they don't draft Bamba at 5, who would've been your pick?

If they don't draft Isaac at 7, who would've been your pick?

If they don't draft Gordon at 4, who would've been your pick?

Seems like based on your wishes in shooting, you would've taken that chance on Hezonja... but I don't like how that turned out.


Exactly. People love to evaluate in a vacuum and forget what is actually available when we were on the clock any given year.

With Luka and Young gone, who do you take over Bamba? There is no clear answer. We can all have opinions but there is no clear reason to hate his pick or say anyone else was a better option.

You can (and many did) say Lauri or DSJ we’re better options than Isaac. I HATE HATE HATE Lauri but that is a style preference. You can flip a coin between Isaac and DSjr for me.

But look at the names behind Gordon that year. Exum, Smart, Randle, Stouskas, Vonleh, Elf ... wow. AG isn’t perfect but who on there would you want over him?

———————————————

I think we have a shot at finding a good SG prospect in the draft and there are some interesting PGs in free agency next summer. I like the idea of clearing out some vets and going with:

2019 free agent DJ
2019 draft, Frazier
Isaac, Simmons
AG, Martin
Bamba, Birch

Then slowly build up better backups. Maybe hang on to Ross or Evan?
I 1000 percent agree. With the way the draft turned out Bamba was the pick. No question. But issue I have... and I said this the day before the draft. The second you hear about the ATL/DAL trade you get on the phone with the Grizz and start working on a way to break up the trade. The threat of our trade may have been enough to make ATL just take Doncic. Or maybe they take Young at 3. Who knows. Force thier hand. But what we did was sit on our hands. To be honest even if Young and Bamba are on the board I believe we take Bamba. Our GM has a thing for long arms and no offense. Offense can and will improve but a team with no high level offensive players cannot win in todays NBA. Last years draft we had 4 picks. This past year we had 3. So 7 picks in the last 2 drafts and we have not gotten a single player who walking through the door can put the ball in the basket. Thats a failure.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#42 » by MagicFan101 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:50 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Skin wrote:My question to you is this... and maybe you can ask Josh Robbins his thoughts...

If they don't draft Bamba at 5, who would've been your pick?

If they don't draft Isaac at 7, who would've been your pick?

If they don't draft Gordon at 4, who would've been your pick?

Seems like based on your wishes in shooting, you would've taken that chance on Hezonja... but I don't like how that turned out.


Exactly. People love to evaluate in a vacuum and forget what is actually available when we were on the clock any given year.

With Luka and Young gone, who do you take over Bamba? There is no clear answer. We can all have opinions but there is no clear reason to hate his pick or say anyone else was a better option.

You can (and many did) say Lauri or DSJ we’re better options than Isaac. I HATE HATE HATE Lauri but that is a style preference. You can flip a coin between Isaac and DSjr for me.

But look at the names behind Gordon that year. Exum, Smart, Randle, Stouskas, Vonleh, Elf ... wow. AG isn’t perfect but who on there would you want over him?

———————————————

I think we have a shot at finding a good SG prospect in the draft and there are some interesting PGs in free agency next summer. I like the idea of clearing out some vets and going with:

2019 free agent DJ
2019 draft, Frazier
Isaac, Simmons
AG, Martin
Bamba, Birch

Then slowly build up better backups. Maybe hang on to Ross or Evan?
I 1000 percent agree. With the way the draft turned out Bamba was the pick. No question. But issue I have... and I said this the day before the draft. The second you hear about the ATL/DAL trade you get on the phone with the Grizz and start working on a way to break up the trade. The threat of our trade may have been enough to make ATL just take Doncic. Or maybe they take Young at 3. Who knows. Force thier hand. But what we did was sit on our hands. To be honest even if Young and Bamba are on the board I believe we take Bamba. Our GM has a thing for long arms and no offense. Offense can and will improve but a team with no high level offensive players cannot win in todays NBA. Last years draft we had 4 picks. This past year we had 3. So 7 picks in the last 2 drafts and we have not gotten a single player who walking through the door can put the ball in the basket. Thats a failure.

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I think Atlanta was happy with Luka or Young. I really can’t imagine anyone near the top not being happy with “settling” for Luka.

I don’t think they would have traded him to us within their division had we made such a move. They would have sat on the pick and moved forward.

We then could draft Young but while I talked myself into being comfortable with Young at 6 I would have been pretty pissed off about trading up to #4 to get Young.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#43 » by fendilim » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:56 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
fendilim wrote:
Catledge wrote:
That's my point. You draft size + length + athleticism because those things bring star potential and let other crappy franchises chase the Adam Morrisons of the world.
True, but the problem is we prioritize length over anything else.


What's the co-relation between athletics or lenght to stardom?

Harold Miner, Shannon Brown, Darrell Griffith were some of most athletic players that this league has ever seen, non of them was really good.

Lenght, same story, Jason Maxiell, Biyombo had super impressive wingspan to their size ( 12% above nba average) ,yet sucked. Manute Bol was human lenght, sucked badly.

wiggins has elite athletics and elite lenght, can't defend for **** and sucks as a player despite all that.
Copy past same for Lavine.
Klay Thompson has miserable vertical, medicore wingspan, plays great defense and is overall better than two of them by wide margin .Won 3 rings in process.
Could say same for Curry, at 6'4 guy can bearly dunk.
You need a combination of all. But whats more difficult to find are athletic scorers.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#44 » by pepe1991 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:59 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
OrlChamps2030 wrote:I don’t think anyone wants the best “specialty” shooter in the lottery.

People wanted skilled scorers/shooters. When you have guys that are still struggling to handle the ball at a NBA wing caliber level I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect those same guys to eventually be your go to guy on offense.

Look at Tatum year 1 vs Aaron Gordon year 4


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Again, it’s cute to compare Tatum to Gordon and say we made poor draft choices.

But Tatum was never available when Orlando was on the clock. Without reach late into the draft and picking a surprise passed on by everyone, show me a real candidate who we passed on in recent years who would have changed our fortunes.

Maybe DSjr over Isaac? But both show a lot of promise while still having a lot of question marks. Hard to make that claim already.

Other than that ... it just doesn’t exist.

The only argument you can make is we should have been more aggressive in moving up in the draft but you have to find a willing trade partner. ... or that we should have tanked harder to not need such a deal.



Actually that draft is best example why they should have tanked hard.

Magic 29 wins 6th pick
Lakers 26 wins - 2# pick
Philly 28 wins-3# pick
Nets /Celtics- worst record- first pick -20 wins

Additional 3 wins costed Magic top 3 pick.
Worst scenario was for Suns ,who with second worst record drafted 4th. But for 3 of worst 4 teams sucking payed off.

Where things went wrong? They beat Pistons on last night of a season ( would tie them with Philly and even odds ), they beat Nets in last week . That two worthless wins ( where Magic played to win, with Gordon and Vuc getting over 30 mpg ) were thing that blocked them from Tatum ,who ,by all accounds looks like 2017 crown jewel of lottery.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#45 » by IllMagic04 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:08 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Exactly. People love to evaluate in a vacuum and forget what is actually available when we were on the clock any given year.

With Luka and Young gone, who do you take over Bamba? There is no clear answer. We can all have opinions but there is no clear reason to hate his pick or say anyone else was a better option.

You can (and many did) say Lauri or DSJ we’re better options than Isaac. I HATE HATE HATE Lauri but that is a style preference. You can flip a coin between Isaac and DSjr for me.

But look at the names behind Gordon that year. Exum, Smart, Randle, Stouskas, Vonleh, Elf ... wow. AG isn’t perfect but who on there would you want over him?

———————————————

I think we have a shot at finding a good SG prospect in the draft and there are some interesting PGs in free agency next summer. I like the idea of clearing out some vets and going with:

2019 free agent DJ
2019 draft, Frazier
Isaac, Simmons
AG, Martin
Bamba, Birch

Then slowly build up better backups. Maybe hang on to Ross or Evan?
I 1000 percent agree. With the way the draft turned out Bamba was the pick. No question. But issue I have... and I said this the day before the draft. The second you hear about the ATL/DAL trade you get on the phone with the Grizz and start working on a way to break up the trade. The threat of our trade may have been enough to make ATL just take Doncic. Or maybe they take Young at 3. Who knows. Force thier hand. But what we did was sit on our hands. To be honest even if Young and Bamba are on the board I believe we take Bamba. Our GM has a thing for long arms and no offense. Offense can and will improve but a team with no high level offensive players cannot win in todays NBA. Last years draft we had 4 picks. This past year we had 3. So 7 picks in the last 2 drafts and we have not gotten a single player who walking through the door can put the ball in the basket. Thats a failure.

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I think Atlanta was happy with Luka or Young. I really can’t imagine anyone near the top not being happy with “settling” for Luka.

I don’t think they would have traded him to us within their division had we made such a move. They would have sat on the pick and moved forward.

We then could draft Young but while I talked myself into being comfortable with Young at 6 I would have been pretty pissed off about trading up to #4 to get Young.
I hear you but you gotta get your guy. Do we value offense and playmaking or not? Im taking Parsons contract if I can get Doncic or Young. Im not trying to rehash the draft and Im not trying to diss Bamba cause I like him. My overall point is I think our front office are morons and no better then Henny. 7 drafts picks. No PG no shooting. Is that acceptable?

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#46 » by pepe1991 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:13 pm

fendilim wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
fendilim wrote:True, but the problem is we prioritize length over anything else.


What's the co-relation between athletics or lenght to stardom?

Harold Miner, Shannon Brown, Darrell Griffith were some of most athletic players that this league has ever seen, non of them was really good.

Lenght, same story, Jason Maxiell, Biyombo had super impressive wingspan to their size ( 12% above nba average) ,yet sucked. Manute Bol was human lenght, sucked badly.

wiggins has elite athletics and elite lenght, can't defend for **** and sucks as a player despite all that.
Copy past same for Lavine.
Klay Thompson has miserable vertical, medicore wingspan, plays great defense and is overall better than two of them by wide margin .Won 3 rings in process.
Could say same for Curry, at 6'4 guy can bearly dunk.
You need a combination of all. But whats more difficult to find are athletic scorers.


Ofc, but there is no pattern between lenght and stardom.
Athletics, fast running, long arms , fast first step, good ballhandling are all nice tools to have but don't really mean that xy player will,because of them become star. Helpful ,indeed.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#47 » by Xatticus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:18 pm

pepe1991 wrote:Shooting is final, or measurable problem with Magic offense. But not main issue.

Magic main issues are:

1) lack of star player. This is most repeated thing on this forum but also it continues to be main wound.
Star players ( talking about clear cut stars, not 1 time allstar by accident ) , draw attention from shooters, force double teams and keep defense honest. They also prevent zone type of defense or any type of hording in paint.
Their effect is simple,they open game for shooters. Shooters get practice level looks and knock them down at much better clip.

I call it Lebron effect. Whenever he goes shooters have great years. Him, Harden,Durant isolate on one side , if other side stays put, they go 1 on 1 or use pick&roll to play 2 v2 . If defense shifts one or more players form other side it means somebody is wide open on top of key or in corner. Simple basketball,yet so effective.


2) Drafting projects on offense. As Xatticus pointed, shooting does not make great offensive player. Stauskas and McDurmott can shoot ,but they are not good offensive players. But Magic never really drafted anybody with great feeling for offense. Nobody they got is good dribbler, nobody is good at passing ,nobody is good slasher. Nothing comes naturally on offense for this guys.
There were and still are prospects that team had to teach how to handle a ball at age of 20. I won't name anybody because i have zero will to argue.

3). Putting players in positions to fail.
This is kind a missfit problem but Magic did this with lot of guys. I can't even name all the WTF moves team did. Starting from Dipo at PG, Gordon at SF ( x2), Simmons at semi PG ( main ballhandler off bench ), Harris as 4, Hezonja as 4, Nicholson as strach 4, Meeks as SF, Evan as SF , Ilyasova at SF. If i missed somebody out of position, my bad.
Just bunch of experiments that never resulted anything positive but created confusion and probably irritation of players.

Oladipo at PG was first time i got super annoyed by Magic as fan. Even freaking GM went in public to confrim that he will play PG, he practiced whole summer for PG, played whole SL and preseason as PG, season starts and Nelson is starter as PG. So why lie? Why go through all that media circus? Let him play or don't say anything, nobody forced you to go in public and confirm it.


I liked the idea of Oladipo at PG at the time because I thought it could only be a positive for his development in the long-term, though I never thought he would stick there.

I read an article many years back that detailed how rookie point guards with high turnover rates demonstrated more long-term growth than those with lower turnover rates. There could be confounding factors here and it could be irrelevant, but I tend to believe it is true. I expect that the same is true to some extent for other positions as well, but that the results are magnified by the possession intensive role of the point guard.

My point in all of this is in that I don't see mistakes as being indicative of a problem, but rather that they are a consequence of the development process. I don't really care if a young player struggles so much, but rather that they have the right approach to the game and learn from their mistakes.

I think basketball is just beginning to recover from a stagnation that set in during the superstar heavy era that came on the heels of Jordan's dominance. I'm a basketball purist at heart, so it was a sort of slow torture having to watch an entire era driven by faux superstars in constant isolation sets. I appreciate the value of isolation plays when it can force the opposition into a double team, but for a long stretch it was just lazy offensive schemes that catered to the desires of players whose purpose was to become stars; as opposed to actually being great basketball players. I'm not going to list names because that will just rile people up, but I'm sure you know what players I am referring to.

The Warriors teams of this dominant run are highlighted by exceptional shooting, but their ball movement is amazing as well. I'm really excited about watching Luka Doncic. To me, he is very reminiscent of Magic and Bird of the 80s. They weren't dominant because they were superior athletes, but because they had an incredible understanding of the game, read defenses, and made quick decisions. I'm hopeful that these are signs that we are transitioning back to a previous era where ball movement and constant motion is what characterized the elite offenses.

I was rather critical of the Clifford hire, but I've been pleasantly surprised by what I've seen from our offense in the preseason. I don't want to get ahead of myself in praising it, but the movement seems improved. It's still disjointed and lacks any semblance of cohesion, but it is better. What I absolutely don't want to see is the ball sticking in Fournier or Gordon's hands while they survey the court or try to break down their defender. I don't want to see Vucevic calling for and receiving the ball when he posts someone up 15+ feet from the basket.

I know there has been a lot of pessimism around here as the season is about to kick off, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I don't mean that I'm expecting us to compete for the playoffs. I would probably take the under on 35 wins right now. But I am just so damned happy that Vogel is gone and that Clifford seems more concerned with rewarding effort than feeding that hierarchical bullsh*t that we have endured the last few years.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#48 » by PennytoShaq » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:24 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:I 1000 percent agree. With the way the draft turned out Bamba was the pick. No question. But issue I have... and I said this the day before the draft. The second you hear about the ATL/DAL trade you get on the phone with the Grizz and start working on a way to break up the trade. The threat of our trade may have been enough to make ATL just take Doncic. Or maybe they take Young at 3. Who knows. Force thier hand. But what we did was sit on our hands. To be honest even if Young and Bamba are on the board I believe we take Bamba. Our GM has a thing for long arms and no offense. Offense can and will improve but a team with no high level offensive players cannot win in todays NBA. Last years draft we had 4 picks. This past year we had 3. So 7 picks in the last 2 drafts and we have not gotten a single player who walking through the door can put the ball in the basket. Thats a failure.

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I think Atlanta was happy with Luka or Young. I really can’t imagine anyone near the top not being happy with “settling” for Luka.

I don’t think they would have traded him to us within their division had we made such a move. They would have sat on the pick and moved forward.

We then could draft Young but while I talked myself into being comfortable with Young at 6 I would have been pretty pissed off about trading up to #4 to get Young.
I hear you but you gotta get your guy. Do we value offense and playmaking or not? Im taking Parsons contract if I can get Doncic or Young. Im not trying to rehash the draft and Im not trying to diss Bamba cause I like him. My overall point is I think our front office are morons and no better then Henny. 7 drafts picks. No PG no shooting. Is that acceptable?

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I am pretty sure we asked about Doncic in a trade, based on the rumors that were out.

Two things - we know they worked out Young. And we also know that they were all over Doncic early in the process (flew to EU twice to scout him).

What we don’t know is how much they valued him and if they see him in the same light as some fans do.They very well likely thought that of Doncic/Young and Bamba - that Bamba has the biggest star potential. They also probably did not like the ask for Doncic. Assuming it was just taking back Parsons is just a guess and not necessarily the case.

I wanted Doncic too. Took me a few days to accept that we did not get him, but it may work out quite well for us. Bamba looks like a winner for us.

Weltman said one thing today that was telling. He said - “we have a bunch of concerns, areas where we can improve”. What I take from that is when he got here, he saw a team that need a brand new starting lineup and bench. And based on what he could get and the players with the highest ceilings, I think he made the choice to build the frontcourt first.

Even if they got Young instead, we’d have a hole at the 5 and we just have not had frountcourt defense in years. I don’t see Isaac as a full time 5.

Anyway, I firmly expect to see us start adding more skill players around this frontcourt next.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#49 » by MagicFan101 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:29 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:I 1000 percent agree. With the way the draft turned out Bamba was the pick. No question. But issue I have... and I said this the day before the draft. The second you hear about the ATL/DAL trade you get on the phone with the Grizz and start working on a way to break up the trade. The threat of our trade may have been enough to make ATL just take Doncic. Or maybe they take Young at 3. Who knows. Force thier hand. But what we did was sit on our hands. To be honest even if Young and Bamba are on the board I believe we take Bamba. Our GM has a thing for long arms and no offense. Offense can and will improve but a team with no high level offensive players cannot win in todays NBA. Last years draft we had 4 picks. This past year we had 3. So 7 picks in the last 2 drafts and we have not gotten a single player who walking through the door can put the ball in the basket. Thats a failure.

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I think Atlanta was happy with Luka or Young. I really can’t imagine anyone near the top not being happy with “settling” for Luka.

I don’t think they would have traded him to us within their division had we made such a move. They would have sat on the pick and moved forward.

We then could draft Young but while I talked myself into being comfortable with Young at 6 I would have been pretty pissed off about trading up to #4 to get Young.
I hear you but you gotta get your guy. Do we value offense and playmaking or not? Im taking Parsons contract if I can get Doncic or Young. Im not trying to rehash the draft and Im not trying to diss Bamba cause I like him. My overall point is I think our front office are morons and no better then Henny. 7 drafts picks. No PG no shooting. Is that acceptable?

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I’m asking if Young was our guy...

I question if he is someone we wanted at all. At 6 you can settle for him but trading up for a guy with a lot of bust potential is scary. I’m not enough of a believer in Trae Young to make that decision.

If Luka was offered? I’ll give them #6, a future protected 1st and take a bad deal.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#50 » by Xatticus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:38 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
fendilim wrote:
Catledge wrote:
That's my point. You draft size + length + athleticism because those things bring star potential and let other crappy franchises chase the Adam Morrisons of the world.
True, but the problem is we prioritize length over anything else.


What's the co-relation between athletics or lenght to stardom?

Harold Miner, Shannon Brown, Darrell Griffith were some of most athletic players that this league has ever seen, non of them was really good.

Lenght, same story, Jason Maxiell, Biyombo had super impressive wingspan to their size ( 12% above nba average) ,yet sucked. Manute Bol was human lenght, sucked badly.

wiggins has elite athletics and elite lenght, can't defend for **** and sucks as a player despite all that.
Copy past same for Lavine.
Klay Thompson has miserable vertical, medicore wingspan, plays great defense and is overall better than two of them by wide margin .Won 3 rings in process.
Could say same for Curry, at 6'4 guy can bearly dunk.


The evidence is actually pretty clear when you look at the population of the NBA as a subset of the population at large. The NBA population is clearly composed of outliers as it relates to both height and wingspan.

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/05/nba_wingspans_forget_height_basketball_players_wingspans_are_absurd_and.html

I don't think we really need to have a conversation regarding the benefits of athleticism in basketball, but I think height is clearly more important. It's not as if taller people are better athletes than their shorter brethren, but it is exceptionally rare that anyone shorter than 6'0" ever reaches the NBA.

I think it is pretty obvious why exceptional height, length, or athleticism are beneficial for a basketball player, but the equation for success is far more complex than that and comprised of far more than physical characteristics. If I were running a team though, it would absolutely be a consideration when evaluating prospects.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#51 » by IllMagic04 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:43 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
I think Atlanta was happy with Luka or Young. I really can’t imagine anyone near the top not being happy with “settling” for Luka.

I don’t think they would have traded him to us within their division had we made such a move. They would have sat on the pick and moved forward.

We then could draft Young but while I talked myself into being comfortable with Young at 6 I would have been pretty pissed off about trading up to #4 to get Young.
I hear you but you gotta get your guy. Do we value offense and playmaking or not? Im taking Parsons contract if I can get Doncic or Young. Im not trying to rehash the draft and Im not trying to diss Bamba cause I like him. My overall point is I think our front office are morons and no better then Henny. 7 drafts picks. No PG no shooting. Is that acceptable?

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I’m asking if Young was our guy...

I question if he is someone we wanted at all. At 6 you can settle for him but trading up for a guy with a lot of bust potential is scary. I’m not enough of a believer in Trae Young to make that decision.

If Luka was offered? I’ll give them #6, a future protected 1st and take a bad deal.
I am a believer so we just disagree there. But forget about that. Doncic sounds like was your guy. So would you agree that you call the Grizz? The Hawks valued Young over Doncic. If we leak a trade they would have to assume its to take Young and ruin their deal. So they would take who they really want who is Young. Your Doncic trade can now happen. Maybe it doesnt work out but just sitting around waiting for another long arm player with limited offense isnt the right move either. That was our most important draft with the talent there. You gotta be aggresive and think outside the box IMO.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#52 » by PennytoShaq » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:49 pm

Agree with X. It absolutley matters.
Do you want the rare guy with a long wingspan and raw basketball skills that can be elite or do you want the guy who displays next level skills in college but is undersized?

If the latter, you want Trae Young, a guy who many people ironically did not want because he had short arms. I remember this being an issue with some of the folks calling the FO for drafting for length.

Everyone likes Tatum now. Many did not think he would translate during that summer. He has a 6’11 wingspan. Does that not help him? I would say it definitely does.

Donavan Mitchell..same thing.

If you can get the mutant with rawer basketball skill over the smaller guy who is a little more developed , you have to take him in today’s NBA if it comes down to a close call between two players. That’s at least what most GM’s subscribe to. The C’s taking Tatum goes with that theory. In fact the reason they took Tatum without hesitation is they saw the rare combo of both - a guy with NBA ready offense AND length.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#53 » by Xatticus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:53 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:I hear you but you gotta get your guy. Do we value offense and playmaking or not? Im taking Parsons contract if I can get Doncic or Young. Im not trying to rehash the draft and Im not trying to diss Bamba cause I like him. My overall point is I think our front office are morons and no better then Henny. 7 drafts picks. No PG no shooting. Is that acceptable?

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I’m asking if Young was our guy...

I question if he is someone we wanted at all. At 6 you can settle for him but trading up for a guy with a lot of bust potential is scary. I’m not enough of a believer in Trae Young to make that decision.

If Luka was offered? I’ll give them #6, a future protected 1st and take a bad deal.
I am a believer so we just disagree there. But forget about that. Doncic sounds like was your guy. So would you agree that you call the Grizz? The Hawks valued Young over Doncic. If we leak a trade they would have to assume its to take Young and ruin their deal. So they would take who they really want who is Young. Your Doncic trade can now happen. Maybe it doesnt work out but just sitting around waiting for another long arm player with limited offense isnt the right move either. That was our most important draft with the talent there. You gotta be aggresive and think outside the box IMO.

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I didn't actually get worked up about Doncic until draft day because I didn't believe there was any way we could land him. Once it became clear that the Hawks were willing to trade their pick and that their target was Young, I started to get excited.
Unfortunately, we will never know how it played out. All we can do is trust that our management team tried to do what they could to put this team in the best position going forward.

If we want to assign blame to them for not landing Doncic, it would be for not tearing down the roster and committing to the tank when they arrived. The difference between us and the Hawks and Mavericks ended up being one win.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#54 » by IllMagic04 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:06 pm

PennytoShaq wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
I think Atlanta was happy with Luka or Young. I really can’t imagine anyone near the top not being happy with “settling” for Luka.

I don’t think they would have traded him to us within their division had we made such a move. They would have sat on the pick and moved forward.

We then could draft Young but while I talked myself into being comfortable with Young at 6 I would have been pretty pissed off about trading up to #4 to get Young.
I hear you but you gotta get your guy. Do we value offense and playmaking or not? Im taking Parsons contract if I can get Doncic or Young. Im not trying to rehash the draft and Im not trying to diss Bamba cause I like him. My overall point is I think our front office are morons and no better then Henny. 7 drafts picks. No PG no shooting. Is that acceptable?

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I am pretty sure we asked about Doncic in a trade, based on the rumors that were out.

Two things - we know they worked out Young. And we also know that they were all over Doncic early in the process (flew to EU twice to scout him).

What we don’t know is how much they valued him and if they see him in the same light as some fans do.They very well likely thought that of Doncic/Young and Bamba - that Bamba has the biggest star potential. They also probably did not like the ask for Doncic. Assuming it was just taking back Parsons is just a guess and not necessarily the case.

I wanted Doncic too. Took me a few days to accept that we did not get him, but it may work out quite well for us. Bamba looks like a winner for us.

Weltman said one thing today that was telling. He said - “we have a bunch of concerns, areas where we can improve”. What I take from that is when he got here, he saw a team that need a brand new starting lineup and bench. And based on what he could get and the players with the highest ceilings, I think he made the choice to build the frontcourt first.

Even if they got Young instead, we’d have a hole at the 5 and we just have not had frountcourt defense in years. I don’t see Isaac as a full time 5.

Anyway, I firmly expect to see us start adding more skill players around this frontcourt next.
Sure we would still have a hole a 5. Thats fair. Personally Id rather have the hole at 5. Plus we could have held on to Biz. We moved him to get Bamba time. So its a hole from the standpoint that Biz sucks but not as glaring as we have at pg right now. I like Bamba. Hes gonna be a very good defensive player. Same with Issac

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#55 » by MagicFan101 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:06 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:I hear you but you gotta get your guy. Do we value offense and playmaking or not? Im taking Parsons contract if I can get Doncic or Young. Im not trying to rehash the draft and Im not trying to diss Bamba cause I like him. My overall point is I think our front office are morons and no better then Henny. 7 drafts picks. No PG no shooting. Is that acceptable?

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I’m asking if Young was our guy...

I question if he is someone we wanted at all. At 6 you can settle for him but trading up for a guy with a lot of bust potential is scary. I’m not enough of a believer in Trae Young to make that decision.

If Luka was offered? I’ll give them #6, a future protected 1st and take a bad deal.
I am a believer so we just disagree there. But forget about that. Doncic sounds like was your guy. So would you agree that you call the Grizz? The Hawks valued Young over Doncic. If we leak a trade they would have to assume its to take Young and ruin their deal. So they would take who they really want who is Young. Your Doncic trade can now happen. Maybe it doesnt work out but just sitting around waiting for another long arm player with limited offense isnt the right move either. That was our most important draft with the talent there. You gotta be aggresive and think outside the box IMO.

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Be careful there. The Hawks valued Young + a 2019 first round pick over Doncic.

Without that pick included in any such offer we have no clue what Atlanta would have done had they kept their pick.

For all we know there was a hand shake deal in place between Orlando and Memphis should Doncic be available at 4. We will never know.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#56 » by IllMagic04 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:16 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
I’m asking if Young was our guy...

I question if he is someone we wanted at all. At 6 you can settle for him but trading up for a guy with a lot of bust potential is scary. I’m not enough of a believer in Trae Young to make that decision.

If Luka was offered? I’ll give them #6, a future protected 1st and take a bad deal.
I am a believer so we just disagree there. But forget about that. Doncic sounds like was your guy. So would you agree that you call the Grizz? The Hawks valued Young over Doncic. If we leak a trade they would have to assume its to take Young and ruin their deal. So they would take who they really want who is Young. Your Doncic trade can now happen. Maybe it doesnt work out but just sitting around waiting for another long arm player with limited offense isnt the right move either. That was our most important draft with the talent there. You gotta be aggresive and think outside the box IMO.

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Be careful there. The Hawks valued Young + a 2019 first round pick over Doncic.

Without that pick included in any such offer we have no clue what Atlanta would have done had they kept their pick.

For all we know there was a hand shake deal in place between Orlando and Memphis should Doncic be available at 4. We will never know.
We will never know. But I dont buy that. With the 3rd pick would you trade to get a player you dont like the best for a future 1st that you dont know when you'll get? Or what will be availible. Thats a tough sell. I think they wanted Young but knew they could get the guy they wanted AND get a future asset. If nobody wanted to trade with Boston then they would took Tatum at 1. Same concept here.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#57 » by MagicFan101 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:25 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:I am a believer so we just disagree there. But forget about that. Doncic sounds like was your guy. So would you agree that you call the Grizz? The Hawks valued Young over Doncic. If we leak a trade they would have to assume its to take Young and ruin their deal. So they would take who they really want who is Young. Your Doncic trade can now happen. Maybe it doesnt work out but just sitting around waiting for another long arm player with limited offense isnt the right move either. That was our most important draft with the talent there. You gotta be aggresive and think outside the box IMO.

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Be careful there. The Hawks valued Young + a 2019 first round pick over Doncic.

Without that pick included in any such offer we have no clue what Atlanta would have done had they kept their pick.

For all we know there was a hand shake deal in place between Orlando and Memphis should Doncic be available at 4. We will never know.
We will never know. But I dont buy that. With the 3rd pick would you trade to get a player you dont like the best for a future 1st that you dont know when you'll get? Or what will be availible. Thats a tough sell. I think they wanted Young but knew they could get the guy they wanted AND get a future asset. If nobody wanted to trade with Boston then they would took Tatum at 1. Same concept here.

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Hang on. lol.

No one said they dislike Young.

But clearly Young + a first round pick is different than just Young. Right?

So the measure of “like the best” as you put it becomes important. How close was it for them?
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#58 » by pepe1991 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:28 pm

Xatticus wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
fendilim wrote:True, but the problem is we prioritize length over anything else.


What's the co-relation between athletics or lenght to stardom?

Harold Miner, Shannon Brown, Darrell Griffith were some of most athletic players that this league has ever seen, non of them was really good.

Lenght, same story, Jason Maxiell, Biyombo had super impressive wingspan to their size ( 12% above nba average) ,yet sucked. Manute Bol was human lenght, sucked badly.

wiggins has elite athletics and elite lenght, can't defend for **** and sucks as a player despite all that.
Copy past same for Lavine.
Klay Thompson has miserable vertical, medicore wingspan, plays great defense and is overall better than two of them by wide margin .Won 3 rings in process.
Could say same for Curry, at 6'4 guy can bearly dunk.


The evidence is actually pretty clear when you look at the population of the NBA as a subset of the population at large. The NBA population is clearly composed of outliers as it relates to both height and wingspan.

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/05/nba_wingspans_forget_height_basketball_players_wingspans_are_absurd_and.html

I don't think we really need to have a conversation regarding the benefits of athleticism in basketball, but I think height is clearly more important. It's not as if taller people are better athletes than their shorter brethren, but it is exceptionally rare that anyone shorter than 6'0" ever reaches the NBA.

I think it is pretty obvious why exceptional height, length, or athleticism are beneficial for a basketball player, but the equation for success is far more complex than that and comprised of far more than physical characteristics. If I were running a team though, it would absolutely be a consideration when evaluating prospects.


Most nba players are indeed outliners for average man, that's why i picked Biyombo and Maxell ,who were outliners even by nba standards with wingspan. DIdn't help them.

http://dribbleanalytics.blogspot.com/2018/04/wingspan-height-defense.html

There is huge in depth analytic outlook of hight and lenght ( wingspan) based on guards,forwards and centers in nba. Only centers had really big adventage relative to raise of wingspan and lenght

3 months ago Nylon Calculus had huge article does wingspan help guards and forwards and simple answer was -no.

article below
https://fansided.com/2018/07/03/nylon-calculus-wingspan-defense/

In general we all here agree that lottery is crapshoot but some teams draft really well ( Celtics last few years) and have good enough development system where they make players they drafted useful.

There is nothing wrong with drafting long athletic guys as long as their addition to a team gives them chance to grow and team chance to have benefit from it. I'm not sure all Magic picks last 2 years were benefitial for both parties. Also i think to Hammond drafting lenght is just gimmick. He added so many players that had not a single nba skill but lenght:
Ton Maker, Henson, Plumlee, Carter Williams,Rashad Vaughn, Sanders,Jeff Adrien... that's just on top of my head i can remember right now.
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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#59 » by IllMagic04 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:38 pm

MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
Be careful there. The Hawks valued Young + a 2019 first round pick over Doncic.

Without that pick included in any such offer we have no clue what Atlanta would have done had they kept their pick.

For all we know there was a hand shake deal in place between Orlando and Memphis should Doncic be available at 4. We will never know.
We will never know. But I dont buy that. With the 3rd pick would you trade to get a player you dont like the best for a future 1st that you dont know when you'll get? Or what will be availible. Thats a tough sell. I think they wanted Young but knew they could get the guy they wanted AND get a future asset. If nobody wanted to trade with Boston then they would took Tatum at 1. Same concept here.

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Hang on. lol.

No one said they dislike Young.

But clearly Young + a first round pick is different than just Young. Right?

So the measure of “like the best” as you put it becomes important. How close was it for them?
What Im saying is you take the player you like the best. A protected future first aint making me take my 2nd fav prospect that high. Would you have traded the 6th pick to lets say the Cavs for their pick and a future top 10 protected pick? I know I wouldnt.

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Re: Official Speculation Thread ‘18-19’: XIX: Rise of the BIG 

Post#60 » by MagicFan101 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:01 pm

IllMagic04 wrote:
MagicFan101 wrote:
IllMagic04 wrote:We will never know. But I dont buy that. With the 3rd pick would you trade to get a player you dont like the best for a future 1st that you dont know when you'll get? Or what will be availible. Thats a tough sell. I think they wanted Young but knew they could get the guy they wanted AND get a future asset. If nobody wanted to trade with Boston then they would took Tatum at 1. Same concept here.

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Hang on. lol.

No one said they dislike Young.

But clearly Young + a first round pick is different than just Young. Right?

So the measure of “like the best” as you put it becomes important. How close was it for them?
What Im saying is you take the player you like the best. A protected future first aint making me take my 2nd fav prospect that high. Would you have traded the 6th pick to lets say the Cavs for their pick and a future top 10 protected pick? I know I wouldnt.

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You’re generalizing and pushing opinion as a one true strategy.

These things must be treated on a case by case basis.

Look at last year for Orlando. We kept our pick and did not make a trade. Clearly Isaac was our #1 guy among those available. But if someone offered DSjr + a 2018 first rounder for Isaac I believe we would be taken it. The margins on their grades are very thin for me. Flip a coin and I’m happy with either. If one includes an extra pick then there you go.

But two names went off the board between JI and DSjr. I would NOT have made that deal for Lauri or Frank.

Point being, this is entirely player specific. You can’t inset arbitrary draft positions. It’s about your grade on the players involved and that changes from one evaluator (GM, scout, coach or fan) to the next.

We have absolutely no idea whatsoever how Atlanta felt about Doncic or Orlando felt about Young or Doncic. We can’t make any conclusions.

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