The Twilight Zone (Denver Nuggets black hole at the end of the 3rd and start of the 4th quarter)

[THE J0KER]

This dangerous and straange issue start at our last February game vs Clippers. Late in 3rd, we have big and comfortable lead (+19 at one point), but then it happens: about 3 minutes before the end of the 3rd quarter result are 86-70 in Denver favor, but just 5 minutes latter Clippers lead 88-89 after 19-2 run. We lose at the end that game vs direct playoff race rival 120-122.

Very next game is vs Memphis, the weak team involved in deep tanking process lately, and we have 95-80 lead at the beginning of the 4th quarter, everything is ready for an easy routine win, but it happens once again, the opponent has shocking 11-0 run, but we survive that 95-91 scare vs opponent which not even wanted to win.

Next easy opponent (tanker) is game vs Dallas. In the middle of the 3rd quarter, we lead just 4 points, 75-71, but still, everything seems OK and we expected another routine win vs really bad team... but it happens once again! In the next 3 minutes, Mavs have shocking 17-3 run, and we never recover from that 78-88 ten points deficit, and we lose that "must win" game at the end.

In last 7 days, we have two matches vs Lakers. The first game we won in Denver, but still, don't forget that we lead about 4 minutes before the end of the 3rd quarter 90-83, but just two and half minutes later it was 90-93 in Lakers favor after 0-10 run... but fortunately we won that match at the end. But in the 2nd game against Lakers, we do not survive this fatal end3-start4 issue. Less than 2 minutes before the end of the 3rd quarter Nuggets has the comfortable 82-70 lead, but less than 4 minutes later it was 84-83 after Lakers 2-13 run, and which is worse our team never recovered from that shock in the 4th quarter and we lose this important game.

Today we played vs weak Detroit, everything was perfect and ready for a blowout win when we lead 96-70 about 3 minutes before the end of the 3rd quarter... but it happens again, so with these late 3rd quarter collapses we are not sure to win even with 26+ lead vs non-playoff team which doesn't care about result, so Pistons have 18-2 run in the next 5 minutes and at one point in the middle of the 4th we are just +5 with Harris out because injury and Jokic played with 5 fouls. But we survive somehow.

Please note, I'm here talking about 6 total collapses from our last 9 games!?!! Not in our last 99 games which such things should happen about 5 times. And we are the team which is part of West Conference playoff dead race where every loss can be fatal. So in the same particular period of the game (end of the 3rd quarter and the start of the 4th) in this 6 games, opponents have 88-9 run in just about 25 minutes (accumulated)!? 88-9 in 25 minutes would be embarrassing even for under-17 boys or mediocre WNBA team against 2017 playoff Golden State or 1993 Jordan Bulls!

And don't ask me who to blame about this...

[SoCalNuggsFan]

Our bench mostly sucks. Barton is extremely hit or miss. Lyles lost his aggressiveness when millsap got back, and plumlee and Harris aren’t rotation players on a contender.

[THE J0KER]

Our bench mostly sucks. Barton is extremely hit or miss. Lyles lost his aggressiveness when millsap got back, and plumlee and Harris aren’t rotation players on a contender.

I understand your point, and why we are destined little bit to struggle with our 2nd unit (despite Barton, Lyles, Plumlee are actually very respectable bench players for NBA standards)... but we talking here about the accumulated 9-88 run from 6 out of last 9 games with a highest possible level of importance. I can't find words to explain how unreal it is when The Twilight Zone starts somewhere at the end of the 3rd quarter so often since that tragic loss vs Clippers.

[NuggetsWY]

Coming into the season, everyone and I do mean everyone, was talking about the great depth on the Nuggets. Why do we now doubt our bench? The answer seems apparent: poor management of the bench. Specifically; Malone's inconsistent usage of his bench. The biggest example is using Barton as a starter off-and-on. He has started 27 out of 68 and he was a 6th man-of-the-year candidate. He is not NBA starter quality but he is a great bench player. With all of his starts, it disrupts not just the bench stats but their style of play and chemistry. A second example is the loss of Mudiay and not just the trade but his inefficiency. Then there is Malone's refusal to use Faried (and perhaps Arthur) - there is no depth if the players aren't used.

With great depth, why not identify 3 or 4 players that are the core of the bench and when a starter needs to be replaced, use someone from deeper of the bench? Some, not all, teams do this and it works. But it takes a deep team to make it work.

Look at the Nuggets' roster and you will see unused players that are of similar talent to players that are indeed playing: Jefferson & Faried especially. Do they need to start? Probably not. Do they need to play tons of bench minutes? Probably not. But they have no value and are not part of the vaunted depth, if they aren't used.

[The Rebel]

Too me it seems like Devin Harris is the issue with the bench. He waived off Jokic several times last night, and then shot a terrible shot or made a bad pass. It almost seems like he cares more about being a traditional PG while not being able to find guys in their spots than he does winning.

[NuggetsWY]

Too me it seems like Devin Harris is the issue with the bench. He waived off Jokic several times last night, and then shot a terrible shot or made a bad pass. It almost seems like he cares more about being a traditional PG while not being able to find guys in their spots than he does winning.

Reminds me of a PG from last year

[Mickey8]

It all comes down to Malone's coaching and the substitution pattern. He's giving some players on this team so much freedom that they don't deserve , while other players are in his dog house, this team should have more players in the rotation , get in Faried ,Juancho , Beasley etc. let them play with Jokic and some other starters, they would bring in more energy to this team.

[MidMountain]

Too me it seems like Devin Harris is the issue with the bench. He waived off Jokic several times last night, and then shot a terrible shot or made a bad pass. It almost seems like he cares more about being a traditional PG while not being able to find guys in their spots than he does winning.

Our bench struggles started long before D. Harris ever got here.

[NuggetsWY]

Too me it seems like Devin Harris is the issue with the bench. He waived off Jokic several times last night, and then shot a terrible shot or made a bad pass. It almost seems like he cares more about being a traditional PG while not being able to find guys in their spots than he does winning.

Our bench struggles started long before D. Harris ever got here.

True, our bench struggles started long before D.Harris ever got here - except, it's the new guy's job to fit into the team and he just doesn't seem to be doing very well at that IMO. Rebel's example is probably the most significant issue I have with D.Harris on offense. The Nuggets do not need a ball-dominant PG and that's why Murray is such a good fit. I will say that D.Harris fits a little better than Nelson did. --- His defense reminds me a lot of Barton's defense.

[skywalker33]

See I think our bench HAS the talent, but the mins and rotation need to be more consistent.

[SoCalNuggsFan]

Coming into the season, everyone and I do mean everyone, was talking about the great depth on the Nuggets. Why do we now doubt our bench? The answer seems apparent: poor management of the bench. Specifically; Malone's inconsistent usage of his bench. The biggest example is using Barton as a starter off-and-on. He has started 27 out of 68 and he was a 6th man-of-the-year candidate. He is not NBA starter quality but he is a great bench player. With all of his starts, it disrupts not just the bench stats but their style of play and chemistry. A second example is the loss of Mudiay and not just the trade but his inefficiency. Then there is Malone's refusal to use Faried (and perhaps Arthur) - there is no depth if the players aren't used.

With great depth, why not identify 3 or 4 players that are the core of the bench and when a starter needs to be replaced, use someone from deeper of the bench? Some, not all, teams do this and it works. But it takes a deep team to make it work.

Look at the Nuggets' roster and you will see unused players that are of similar talent to players that are indeed playing: Jefferson & Faried especially. Do they need to start? Probably not. Do they need to play tons of bench minutes? Probably not. But they have no value and are not part of the vaunted depth, if they aren't used.

We have a lot of guys that would be nice rotation pieces for like the nets. But you put them in a big game late in the year and they just don’t cut it. We have 6.5 good rotation players on a contender. (Chandler is the .5) and like 14 that would be rotation players on a bad team. That’s good depth until the expectations arrive.

[NuggetsWY]

Coming into the season, everyone and I do mean everyone, was talking about the great depth on the Nuggets. Why do we now doubt our bench? The answer seems apparent: poor management of the bench. Specifically; Malone's inconsistent usage of his bench. The biggest example is using Barton as a starter off-and-on. He has started 27 out of 68 and he was a 6th man-of-the-year candidate. He is not NBA starter quality but he is a great bench player. With all of his starts, it disrupts not just the bench stats but their style of play and chemistry. A second example is the loss of Mudiay and not just the trade but his inefficiency. Then there is Malone's refusal to use Faried (and perhaps Arthur) - there is no depth if the players aren't used.

With great depth, why not identify 3 or 4 players that are the core of the bench and when a starter needs to be replaced, use someone from deeper of the bench? Some, not all, teams do this and it works. But it takes a deep team to make it work.

Look at the Nuggets' roster and you will see unused players that are of similar talent to players that are indeed playing: Jefferson & Faried especially. Do they need to start? Probably not. Do they need to play tons of bench minutes? Probably not. But they have no value and are not part of the vaunted depth, if they aren't used.

We have a lot of guys that would be nice rotation pieces for like the nets. But you put them in a big game late in the year and they just don’t cut it. We have 6.5 good rotation players on a contender. (Chandler is the .5) and like 14 that would be rotation players on a bad team. That’s good depth until the expectations arrive.

It depends on how you look at "quality of rotation pieces". I tend to consider value of bench players compared to the player that is starting in their position. If you have a bench player almost as good as the starter, that's depth - but that's just my opinion.

Depth for the Nuggets:
Plumlee - adequate
Lyles - adequate with potential improvement
Barton - hot-n-cold-frustrating

So your assessment of 6.5 is probably fairly close IMO.

So-called depth that some thought we had before the season started.
Faried, Arthur, Hernangomez, Lyles
Beasley
Mudiay

But they aren't "depth" if Malone won't use them.

Add in Lydon & Jefferson and there's a lot of talent cheering more than they are playing.

[SoCalNuggsFan]

Coming into the season, everyone and I do mean everyone, was talking about the great depth on the Nuggets. Why do we now doubt our bench? The answer seems apparent: poor management of the bench. Specifically; Malone's inconsistent usage of his bench. The biggest example is using Barton as a starter off-and-on. He has started 27 out of 68 and he was a 6th man-of-the-year candidate. He is not NBA starter quality but he is a great bench player. With all of his starts, it disrupts not just the bench stats but their style of play and chemistry. A second example is the loss of Mudiay and not just the trade but his inefficiency. Then there is Malone's refusal to use Faried (and perhaps Arthur) - there is no depth if the players aren't used.

With great depth, why not identify 3 or 4 players that are the core of the bench and when a starter needs to be replaced, use someone from deeper of the bench? Some, not all, teams do this and it works. But it takes a deep team to make it work.

Look at the Nuggets' roster and you will see unused players that are of similar talent to players that are indeed playing: Jefferson & Faried especially. Do they need to start? Probably not. Do they need to play tons of bench minutes? Probably not. But they have no value and are not part of the vaunted depth, if they aren't used.

We have a lot of guys that would be nice rotation pieces for like the nets. But you put them in a big game late in the year and they just don’t cut it. We have 6.5 good rotation players on a contender. (Chandler is the .5) and like 14 that would be rotation players on a bad team. That’s good depth until the expectations arrive.

It depends on how you look at "quality of rotation pieces". I tend to consider value of bench players compared to the player that is starting in their position. If you have a bench player almost as good as the starter, that's depth - but that's just my opinion.

Depth for the Nuggets:
Plumlee - adequate
Lyles - adequate with potential improvement
Barton - hot-n-cold-frustrating

So your assessment of 6.5 is probably fairly close IMO.

So-called depth that some thought we had before the season started.
Faried, Arthur, Hernangomez, Lyles
Beasley
Mudiay

But they aren't "depth" if Malone won't use them.

Add in Lydon & Jefferson and there's a lot of talent cheering more than they are playing.

There’s the key. I won’t put the bench being terrible in second halves recently on Malone, they know they’re coming in end of the 3rd and all they have to to is be solid because the starters are good, but they’ve been awful. The question is, should faried or Arthur be getting lyles or plumlee’s minutes? Would they be any better/worse? Should one of Craig/Beasley/Juancho be getting minutes with the bench and cut out the bench/starter intermingling? Malone seems pretty set with Harris/Barton/Lyles/Plumlee as the bench unit, so we probably won’t get to know if there’s a fix already on the roster.

[NuggetsWY]

Spoiler:

We have a lot of guys that would be nice rotation pieces for like the nets. But you put them in a big game late in the year and they just don’t cut it. We have 6.5 good rotation players on a contender. (Chandler is the .5) and like 14 that would be rotation players on a bad team. That’s good depth until the expectations arrive.

It depends on how you look at "quality of rotation pieces". I tend to consider value of bench players compared to the player that is starting in their position. If you have a bench player almost as good as the starter, that's depth - but that's just my opinion.

Depth for the Nuggets:
Plumlee - adequate
Lyles - adequate with potential improvement
Barton - hot-n-cold-frustrating

So your assessment of 6.5 is probably fairly close IMO.

So-called depth that some thought we had before the season started.
Faried, Arthur, Hernangomez, Lyles
Beasley
Mudiay

But they aren't "depth" if Malone won't use them.

Add in Lydon & Jefferson and there's a lot of talent cheering more than they are playing.

There’s the key. I won’t put the bench being terrible in second halves recently on Malone, they know they’re coming in end of the 3rd and all they have to to is be solid because the starters are good, but they’ve been awful. The question is, should faried or Arthur be getting lyles or plumlee’s minutes? Would they be any better/worse? Should one of Craig/Beasley/Juancho be getting minutes with the bench and cut out the bench/starter intermingling? Malone seems pretty set with Harris/Barton/Lyles/Plumlee as the bench unit, so we probably won’t get to know if there’s a fix already on the roster.

Yeah, Malone doesn't experiment much, a little, but mostly when he gets his mind set on something, he doesn't change much. Maybe it's just plain stubbornness, maybe it's fear they'll screw up, maybe he doesn't like their personality. Who knows?

As Rebel has pointed out in the past, Faried with Jokic has been very effective.

[The Rebel]

Spoiler:

We have a lot of guys that would be nice rotation pieces for like the nets. But you put them in a big game late in the year and they just don’t cut it. We have 6.5 good rotation players on a contender. (Chandler is the .5) and like 14 that would be rotation players on a bad team. That’s good depth until the expectations arrive.

It depends on how you look at "quality of rotation pieces". I tend to consider value of bench players compared to the player that is starting in their position. If you have a bench player almost as good as the starter, that's depth - but that's just my opinion.

Depth for the Nuggets:
Plumlee - adequate
Lyles - adequate with potential improvement
Barton - hot-n-cold-frustrating

So your assessment of 6.5 is probably fairly close IMO.

So-called depth that some thought we had before the season started.
Faried, Arthur, Hernangomez, Lyles
Beasley
Mudiay

But they aren't "depth" if Malone won't use them.

Add in Lydon & Jefferson and there's a lot of talent cheering more than they are playing.

There’s the key. I won’t put the bench being terrible in second halves recently on Malone, they know they’re coming in end of the 3rd and all they have to to is be solid because the starters are good, but they’ve been awful. The question is, should faried or Arthur be getting lyles or plumlee’s minutes? Would they be any better/worse? Should one of Craig/Beasley/Juancho be getting minutes with the bench and cut out the bench/starter intermingling? Malone seems pretty set with Harris/Barton/Lyles/Plumlee as the bench unit, so we probably won’t get to know if there’s a fix already on the roster.

It depends heavily on how you view the young guys one the bench. If you view it that the talent is lacking on the bench than that is on the front office, If you think the young guys are talented but need development minutes, than that is on Malone.

I like what I have seen from Beasley, Hernangomez, and Craig, they are not superstars, but they have potential to be very good rotation guys. With Juancho's health being questionable, we are forced to give Malone a pass on him, but there is no reason the other two did not get some kind of minutes early in the season. Malone is the one that decided at one point to have a 7 man rotation, and there is no reason that someone as streaky as Barton should be 2nd on the team for minutes played. Beasley and Criag should have been fighting over 12 mpg between the 2 of them all season long, and now at least one of them should be more than capable of playing important minutes down the stretch, but instead we have no idea if we really have anything with any of the 3. That is on Malone.

Morris has looked like a solid backup NBA PG in the Dleague, not super flashy, but he takes care of the ball, plays within himself, and makes his guys better. He has played a total of 25 minutes in the NBA this season. He should have been our 3rd PG from the start, and when Mudiay was injured he should have been called up and given 12 mpg, he would have been better than playing Barton in that role, but Malone did not want to play a rookie, so he stayed in the Dleague, and now that Harris is faltering we are watching Barton basically be the defacto backup PG and we all know that is terrible for the team and not Barton's game.

Faried is a great fit next to Jokic, and a terrible fit next to Plumlee, Plumlee is a terrible fit next to Jokic, but a good fit next to Lyles, Arthur, and Chandler. When Millsap went down the right move would have been to put Faried as the starter for 15-20 mpg, Plumlee as backup Center for 15 mpg, Lyles as backup PF for 25 mpg, and Chandler sliding over for 3-8 mpg depending on matchups. Instead we get the Plumlee Jokic lineup that we all know does not work, then we get Chandler at the 4 and Barton at the 3, and Faried is left on the bench. Faried and Plumlee does not work, so I can see the reasoning on leaving him on the bench now, but don't you think him playing more minutes earlier in the season would have left the other bench guys less worn down?

Arthur and Jefferson are veterans, and while they may not be able to play extended minutes at this point, they very easily could come in during those collapses an stabilize things for a few minutes and slow down the collapse. Yet they only get in during garbage time.

Now let's talk about the guys who needed to lose minutes this year. 2/3rds of the season Wilson Chandler was pouting and not even coming close to putting in max effort, yet he played over 31 mpg this year (weird part is that his minutes have actually gone down now that he is putting in effort). Barton is 2nd on the team with 32.4 MPG yet is by far the streakiest of the players who get minutes on this team. Harris has been playing nearly 35 mpg, while playing our 2nd deepest position. You could easily take 5 mpg from Chandler, 8 mpg on the bad nights from barton, and 2 or 3 mpg from Harris, and give those minutes to Beasley/ Craig/ Hernangomez, and have had development time with little to no affect on the actual record. As we all know that when Chandler did not care and Barton has his bad nights that they were costing us points and games.

Now I know Malone's whole point this year was to win games, but reality is that we would be winning more games if Malone knew how to use his players correctly. Using a 7 man rotation early in the season, to the point that even fans are noticing that guys are getting tired is just plain dumb. Not developing a guy like Beasley while sitting him on the bench for basically 2 years now is stupid when he has shown the potential to be a good contributor. Bringing Craig up from the Dleague, starting him a couple of games and then throwing him to the end of the bench when he has a bad game was a waste of a roster spot. Ignoring the young PG we have on the roster to play Barton out of position screwed the team, yet you don't want to blame Malone for the problems with the bench?

Sorry but to me the results have not matched the talent on this team for the last 3 years, part of it has been Malone trying to force guys into roles and systems that do not match their talent, but another large part of it is that Malone has never figured out how to use his roster to get the best out of his players. The recent bench struggles are just another example.

[THE J0KER]

Our famous losing choke formula was back already in the first game of the new 2018-19 season. Right before the end of the 3rd quarter, Denver has solid +7 lead (73-66) vs Clippers, but couple minutes later, in the middle of the final quarter, the result was -8 (84-92) thanks to our 11-26 trademark collapse.

But unlike what we see last season so many times, our team this time fight back in the final 5 minutes with an impressive 23-6 run, so we win this game at the end. Also, to be fair to our bench players, they faced this time one of the best benches in NBA, and we played without Isaiah Thomas, a player which we sign this summer to solve our bench problem, and which is also well known in the league as "expert" for the 4th quarter, so maybe we will not bump this thread this season so often at all. And also, Morris seems like a good addition to our bench, Lyles seems to finally learn to live with his limited minutes role, and Plumlee seems to be in great physical shape.

[skywalker33]

Wow. already after ONE game into the season......

[THE J0KER]

Just for the records:

first loss of the 2018-19 season vs Lakers, in the middle of the 4th quarter Denver lead 106-98, but just about 3 minutes latter result was 108-113 after Lakers 15-2 run.

[THE J0KER]

Nuggets win the game vs Pelicans at home today, but I must report this same issue once again. About 4 minutes before the end of the 3rd quarter result was 74-56 in Denver favor, but just about 4 minutes after the start of the 4th quarter Denver lead just 88-84, and all that in the game where opponent played without their by far best player, Anthony Davis.