#2 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

Moncrief 9 (iggymcfrack, SuperDario, penbeast0, samurai, cecilthesheep, BAMBA5, pandrade83. SinceGatlingWasaRookie, knickfan33)
Tony Allen 7 (Dr Positivity, homecourtloss, lebron3-14-3. HeartBreakkid, electricmayhem, mddonnelly1989, LAbird)
Michael Cooper 2 (kendogg, trex)

[trex_8063]

Moncrief 9 (iggymcfrack, SuperDario, penbeast0, samurai, cecilthesheep, BAMBA5, pandrade83. SinceGatlingWasaRookie, knickfan33)
Tony Allen 7 (Dr Positivity, homecourtloss, lebron3-14-3. HeartBreakkid, electricmayhem, mddonnelly1989, LAbird)
Michael Cooper 1 (kendogg)

Just a slight correction: Coop had TWO votes (I voted for him somewhere toward the mid-bottom of page 3).

[bledredwine]

Hmmmm I soubt that longetivity is much of a factor just because many defensive players have had significant longetivity. Current players that are better, we have Kawhi, Butler........ maybe PG depending on his longetivity.

then you have the defensive monsters/specialists of the past - Battier, Artest, Bowen, Tayshaun, Marion, Rodman, Pippen, Bobby Jones, Worthy and DeBusschere.

Of those I just named, I’ll give Lebron benefit of the doubt over the to-be-determined, but he would likely not be considered over any of Pippen, Kawhi, Bowen, Rodman, Artest, Jones, Tayshaun, Marion, DeBusschere. And I’m probably forgetting a couple.

I mean..you think that lebron is not close to being the greatest driver of all time despite evidence indicating otherwise
You think lebron is not clutch despite evidence indicating he is one of the top 2 clutchest ever (with jordan), or surely one of the cluthcest ever (no, those post linked in your signature is not evidence).

You think lebron isn't even a top 10 SF defender ever (!!!!!!!, but, for the matter, it is not like there's a gap on jordan's favour over lebron on the defensive end, you can legitimately pick either of the two, I would pick jordan, but you can't go wrong picking one or the other. Ben taylor for example has lebron over jordan on defense. The undisputable truth is that they are close.

Do you even consider lebron better than kobe as a player? Are you sure you are not biased? I would like to keep this project unbiased

I don’t think you (and many) understand that Jordan dominated his matchups on both ends of the court, limiting them significantly (even shutting down at times) and pummeling them offensively. Lebron frequently lets players put up 20+ on him, and we’ve seen what happens with Kawhi/Durant, Melo in his prime and so on. Look up head-to-head numbers if you don’t believe me.

1. I consider Lebron somewhere in the 9-12 spot of best SF defender, which is fair. Go ahead Andretti the defenders that I named, and tell me which you honestly think are not better than Lebron. I consider it a bit wild if you genuinely have Lebron above even the 6 spot because Kawhi, Rodman, Pippen, Artest, Bowen, Marion, Butler are all much better at limiting their matchups. After that, sure I would consider Lebron. I haven’t seen enough of DeBusschere but know enough that he was a monster defender as well. That’s 8 right there. It’s unreasonable to call me biased for not considering Lebron one of the top SF defenders in the history of the game. He doesn’t exactly have a stunning resume for it either. 5 time 1st team defense is very good, though.

I will tell you now that I do not find Lebron’s man-to-man defense good. What am impressed with is how players fear him when on a fast break and his ability to dominate smaller guys. That, he is good at. But his impact on the game defensively does not matchup IMO to the top 7-8. If he can choose to check KD in the final moments of the finals games, I would gain respect, but he doesn’t even do that.... because he’s not effective against KD. Kawhi as well.

2. No Lebron is not a better driver. That’s actually insane. When people post this, I see “I don’t remember pre-94 Jordan” and it indicates clear bias or Lebron-worship. I’ve seen many games where opposing teams threw everything they had at Jordan- 7 footers, 5 footers, double teams. He was that much of a scoring and driving threat. The Pistons planted guys near the rim specifically for Jordan. Never have I ever seen this for Lebron. Jordan got around players with no issue. Unlike Lebron, he was always contested at the rim,forwards were known for their defense and had a license to kick your butt. They are different times and I have yet to see reliable evidence, including what was posted in that thread. Nothing was posted about 80’s jordan, when attacking was his go-to. Once again, I can post a billion videos of Jordan taking on many more defenders than Lebron. There has yet to be one poster who can show just a three minute video showing double teams onLebron, let alone camping big men as well.

3. Lebron is better than Kobe, but it’s not a big gap like the Lebron fans here act. Many professional players actually choose Kobe. RealGM has significantly more Lebron fans right now. Still, I’ve thought Lebron better even back when it wasn’t cool to (2009). I believe the gap between Jordan and Lebron clearly bigger than Lebron Kobe and the amount of perimeter players averaging insane numbers right now is huge. Relative to era, Jordan’s stats are an outlier and Lebron’s relative to era are the best, but similar to his best peers.

4. No. I like to be objective, which is why it’s annoying to see threads like “Why isn’t Lebron clearly the best driver”, threads claiming that Lebron is a better defender when Jordan defensively was the Kawhi of his time (but more sensational because he was doing bizarre things like blocking centers and dunking constantly), and threads acting like Lebron is on another tier from Durant when they’re neck and neck. It also is annoying to see posters playing down Jordan’s midrange game and stating that he’s not top ten when stats point to him clearly being on top. These are just a few examples.

5. The bias here is clear - It’s a forum that mostly discusses the present. Polls favor newer players, which is no surprise, as they always have. There have been many examples of this. The knowledgeable posters come to post in these all-time project threads. That’s why this is refreshing. Kudos for making a good thread. But I’m sorry, Lebronis not a defensive behemoth—— the players named were mostly great defensive players in old age. They didn’t let their matchups average 35 on them for a series, finals MVPs etc. they limited. We all know that Lebron has not been impressive defensively for a while now.

[penbeast0]

fwiw, DeBusschere will almost certainly be listed as a power forward, not a wing.

[bledredwine]

fwiw, DeBusschere will almost certainly be listed as a power forward, not a wing.

Wasnt he similar to rodman inthat he did both at different points in his career?

[DNice68]

I'd brought this up in the last thread......

Moncrief's primary compliment as a defensive player is that he was a "stopper". Well, I'd looked at some H2H's (just added Clyde Drexler to the pool of those evaluated), and it's [so far] not reflected in the players I've looked at match-ups against (and I'm cherry-picking only Moncrief's prime years ['82-'86], too):

'85-'86 Michael Jordan vs. Moncrief (8 games): 26.6 ppg, 52.9% eFG%, 9.6 FTA/g, 5.1 apg, 2.75 topg
'85-'86 M.Jordan overall: 27.2 ppg, 50.8% eFG%, 8.7 FTA/g, 5.3 apg, 3.4 topg

'82-'86 Dennis Johnson vs Moncrief (18 games): 17.2 ppg, 46.25% eFG%, 5.6 FTA/g, 54.5% TS, 5.1 apg, 2.4 topg
'82-'86 D.Johnson overall: 15.6 ppg, 46.1% eFG%, 4.5 FTA/g, 52.5% TS, 5.3 apg, 2.5 topg

'82-'83 David Thompson vs Moncrief (4 games): 16.5 ppg, 47.8% eFG%, 7.0 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.5 topg
'82-'83 D.Thompson overall: 15.4 ppg, 48.5% eFG%, 5.3 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.2 topg

'82-'85 Andrew Toney vs Moncrief (21 games): 19.1 ppg @ 60.0% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.0 topg
'82-'85 Andrew Toney overall: 18.6 ppg @ 57.7% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.3 topg

'82-'86 Walter Davis vs Moncrief (9 games): 19.2 ppg, 46.7% eFG%, 4.1 FTA/g, 3.3 apg, 2.2 topg
'82-'86 W.Davis overall: 18.8 ppg, 50.9% eFG%, 3.2 FTA/g, 4.7 apg, 2.6 topg

Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) vs Moncrief (6 games): 14.5 ppg @ 49.7% TS, 6.8 apg, 3.2 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) overall: 14.3 ppg @ 52.5% TS, 5.0 apg, 2.6 topg.



I've now looked at just a few H2H's for Michael Cooper (as he was generally the guy the Lakers would turn to to cover the most potent scorer of the opposing team's perimeter core):

Michael Jordan vs Cooper (9 games): 31.2 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 6.2 apg, 4.0 topg.
‘85-’90 MJ overall: 32.8 ppg @ 59.2% TS, 6.0 apg, 3.3 topg

Sidney Moncrief vs Cooper (20 games): 13.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.0 apg, 2.0 topg.
‘80-’89 Moncrief overall: 16.7 ppg @ 59.1% TS, 3.9 apg, 2.1 topg.

Andrew Toney vs Cooper (12 games): 20.7 ppg @ *55.8% TS, *1.9 apg, **3.0 topg (*11 games, **8 games).
Andrew Toney overall: 15.9 ppg @ 56.5% TS, 4.2 apg, 3.0 topg.

Walter Davis vs Cooper (‘80-’90, 46 games): 17.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.6 topg.
Walter Davis (‘80-’90) overall: 18.9 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.4 topg.

Clyde Drexler vs Cooper (38 games): 19.4 ppg @ 49.5% TS, 5.9 apg, 2.8 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’90) overall: 20.3 ppg @ 54.6% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.8 topg.
NOTE: Drexler held to 19.8 ppg @ 49.0% TS, 8.9 apg, 3.8 topg in playoffs against Cooper (weighted for playoff games played against Lakers in each meeting, was avg 20.95 ppg @ 54.2% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.95 topg in rs same years)

^^^You'll note that [so far; we're still far from conclusive of anything, I realize] we're seeing a more consistent trend of opposing wing scorers having trouble when facing Cooper than we see in Moncrief's study above (and note that I'm using ALL of Cooper's career, not just the prime years as I did with Moncrief). I also note Cooper's slightly better help D numbers (2.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100, vs. 1.9 and 0.5 for Sid), although Sid did that in higher mpg. However , in total career minutes they're basically even.

Coop's also got a DPOY to his credit, and a higher total of All-D honors, fwiw.
Not that I don't think there's a case to be made for Sid, but I'm going with Michael Cooper.

Moncrief admitted he was not a great man to man defender. He was good, but not great. He won DPOY on the strength of help defense, which he was the best at. IMO Marques Johnson was better man to man when he wanted to be. He was indifferent as a help defender , but man to man he was tough, especially in the playoffs. He had a very good defensive series against Bird in the 82-83 playoffs. He also stuck Dominique Wilkins in the 83-84 playoffs.

[penbeast0]

Moncrief admitted he was not a great man to man defender. He was good, but not great. He won DPOY on the strength of help defense, which he was the best at. IMO Marques Johnson was better man to man when he wanted to be. He was indifferent as a help defender , but man to man he was tough, especially in the playoffs. He had a very good defensive series against Bird in the 82-83 playoffs. He also stuck Dominique Wilkins in the 83-84 playoffs.

Marques before the drug issues was a good, not great defender from what I saw. Sid was not a great help defender in terms of steals though very smart. Do you have a citation for this claim?

[DNice68]

Moncrief admitted he was not a great man to man defender. He was good, but not great. He won DPOY on the strength of help defense, which he was the best at. IMO Marques Johnson was better man to man when he wanted to be. He was indifferent as a help defender , but man to man he was tough, especially in the playoffs. He had a very good defensive series against Bird in the 82-83 playoffs. He also stuck Dominique Wilkins in the 83-84 playoffs.

Marques before the drug issues was a good, not great defender from what I saw. Sid was not a great help defender in terms of steals though very smart. Do you have a citation for this claim?

Moncrief was not a weakside steals guy, but he was still a great help defender. He would rotate off his man and deny the the ball handler the ability to drive, but still covering his main defensive man. But if he was assigned to guard Andrew Toney or Jordan one on one, man to man, he would give up some points. Marques Johnson was not a great defender, but he could do a very good job guarding his man one on one. People like Larry Bird, Dr. J, and Dominique Wilkins didn't have their career highs againsr him.

[Dr Positivity]

Lebron is possibly a top 5 SF defender at his peak but it's not for very long. Neither Cavs version is worth consideration for top 10 all time at a position, 2013 and 2014 he is playing PF and he starts to slips on D in 2014. So it's really only a few years on the Heat with 2011 probably being his best year. I think he had a chance to be a GOAT level SF defender but outside of when Wade was in his prime he never had the energy for it.