#3 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[An Unbiased Fan]

Haven't been following this project, but don't get all this Tony Allen love. Dude is a career 22 mpg bench player. An under-sized SG who has been good defensively in the spurts he's on the court.

I guess his +/- numbers may be the reason, but he's the posterboy of how that stat is rotational. A guy who never even had over 27 mpg in a season, would have had a big +/- dropoff playing bigger minutes with less favorable rotations, and expending energy for a full game.

The autograph reads: "To Tony, the best defender I ever faced!" - Kobe Bryant

Kobe
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Curry

Tony Allen is the best I've seen at guarding each one of these players, in an era where offensive perimeter players have a huge advantage from years past. All these guys have vastly different skillsets yet Tony was giving all of them a ton of trouble. He was a great on-ball defender who gave Durant a ton of problems due to Durant's dribble not being elite, and he's the GOAT defensive wing at getting around screens and chasing guys off-screens imo. He was giving Curry/Klay so much trouble because he'd be shadowing them off-screens in a way they weren't used to. Problem was the Warriors exposed his offense.

The fact that Marc Gasol got more credit for the Grizzlies D than Tony Allen while Bowen/Kawhi received more credit for the Spurs D than Duncan is one of the all-time mysteries to me. The Grizzlies' success on D was due mainly to dominating the perimeter on D, with an attack spearheaded by Allen. The Spurs' success on D was due mainly to Duncan's rim protection and the Spurs' "mid-range shots are ok to give up" strategy.

Tony Allen was better than Bowen, Artest, Battier, or anyone else I've seen in the last 15 years. I don't know if Coop/Moncrief were better, but I doubt it. MJ played so many more minutes and had insane athleticism so I could see the #1 argument for him, but I believe that Tony Allen is the best per-minute defensive wing player in NBA history. His '15 and '13 seasons were the 2 best defensive wing seasons I've seen.

I don't expect to participate on a lot of these, but if you want to count my vote I'd go Tony Allen.

Gasol gets more credit because he deserves it. A defensive big > defensive small. The Griz revolved around Gasol when funneling their defense. It's funny that Tony Allen didn't even make a All-D until he went to Memphis(next to Gasol) at age 29.

I do think Allen is a great defender, but mainly in terms of man defense and playing lanes. If I want a specialist to shadow a scorer for 25 mpg...he's the guy. But he does have weaknesses. He isn't elite against SFs, especially ones with size. He's also known for playing lanes at times..more than paying attention to his assignments. At 6'4 his defense is more about harassing than altering SG shots too, and fighting through screens.

Better than Bowen, Artest? No sorry, those guys logged more minutes and could guard 4 different positions. MJ/Kobe/Eddie/Coop could guard 3 positions. Allen can guard two at an elite level, and for about 25 mpg where he's focusing on defense.

[trex_8063]

Mostly copied from last thread, with scant addition to the H2H's.....


Moncrief's primary compliment as a defensive player is that he was a "stopper". I'd looked at some H2H's (just added Clyde Drexler to the pool of those evaluated), and it's [so far] not reflected in the players I've looked at match-ups against (and I'm cherry-picking only Moncrief's prime years ['82-'86], too):

'85-'86 Michael Jordan vs. Moncrief (8 games): 26.6 ppg, 52.9% eFG%, 9.6 FTA/g, 5.1 apg, 2.75 topg
'85-'86 M.Jordan overall: 27.2 ppg, 50.8% eFG%, 8.7 FTA/g, 5.3 apg, 3.4 topg

'82-'86 Dennis Johnson vs Moncrief (18 games): 17.2 ppg, 46.25% eFG%, 5.6 FTA/g, 54.5% TS, 5.1 apg, 2.4 topg
'82-'86 D.Johnson overall: 15.6 ppg, 46.1% eFG%, 4.5 FTA/g, 52.5% TS, 5.3 apg, 2.5 topg

'82-'83 David Thompson vs Moncrief (4 games): 16.5 ppg, 47.8% eFG%, 7.0 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.5 topg
'82-'83 D.Thompson overall: 15.4 ppg, 48.5% eFG%, 5.3 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.2 topg

'82-'85 Andrew Toney vs Moncrief (21 games): 19.1 ppg @ 60.0% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.0 topg
'82-'85 Andrew Toney overall: 18.6 ppg @ 57.7% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.3 topg

'82-'86 Walter Davis vs Moncrief (9 games): 19.2 ppg, 46.7% eFG%, 4.1 FTA/g, 3.3 apg, 2.2 topg
'82-'86 W.Davis overall: 18.8 ppg, 50.9% eFG%, 3.2 FTA/g, 4.7 apg, 2.6 topg

Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) vs Moncrief (6 games): 14.5 ppg @ 49.7% TS, 6.8 apg, 3.2 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) overall: 14.3 ppg @ 52.5% TS, 5.0 apg, 2.6 topg.

Darrell Griffith vs Moncrief (16 games): 16.4 ppg
Darrell Griffith overall in same years ('81-'89, '91): 17.1 ppg


I've now looked at just a few H2H's for Michael Cooper (as he was generally the guy the Lakers would turn to to cover the most potent scorer of the opposing team's perimeter core):

Michael Jordan vs Cooper (9 games): 31.2 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 6.2 apg, 4.0 topg.
‘85-’90 MJ overall: 32.8 ppg @ 59.2% TS, 6.0 apg, 3.3 topg

Sidney Moncrief vs Cooper (20 games): 13.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.0 apg, 2.0 topg.
‘80-’89 Moncrief overall: 16.7 ppg @ 59.1% TS, 3.9 apg, 2.1 topg.

Andrew Toney vs Cooper (12 games): 20.7 ppg @ *55.8% TS, *1.9 apg, **3.0 topg (*11 games, **8 games).
Andrew Toney overall: 15.9 ppg @ 56.5% TS, 4.2 apg, 3.0 topg.

Walter Davis vs Cooper (‘80-’90, 46 games): 17.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.6 topg.
Walter Davis (‘80-’90) overall: 18.9 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.4 topg.

Clyde Drexler vs Cooper (38 games): 19.4 ppg @ 49.5% TS, 5.9 apg, 2.8 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’90) overall: 20.3 ppg @ 54.6% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.8 topg.
NOTE: Drexler held to 19.8 ppg @ 49.0% TS, 8.9 apg, 3.8 topg in playoffs against Cooper (weighted for playoff games played against Lakers in each meeting, was avg 20.95 ppg @ 54.2% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.95 topg in rs same years)

Darrell Griffith vs Cooper (40 games): 15.8 ppg
Darrell Griffith overall same years: 17.3 ppg

^^^You'll note that [so far; we're still far from conclusive of anything, I realize] we're seeing a more consistent trend of opposing wing scorers having trouble when facing Cooper than we see in Moncrief's study above (and note that I'm using ALL of Cooper's career, not just the prime years as I did with Moncrief). I also note Cooper's slightly better help D numbers (2.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100, vs. 1.9 and 0.5 for Sid), although Sid did that in higher mpg. However , in total career minutes they're basically even.

Coop's also got a DPOY to his credit, and a higher total of All-D honors, fwiw.
Vote: Michael Cooper.

[KnickFan33]

Cooper

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Michael Cooper

Got a point guard too quick for Byron Scott, put Cooper on him. Need to guard Bird who is power forward sized but can pick your team appart with his passing, put Cooper on him. Cooper was an off guard but he had to guard the best perimeter player regardless of position.

[penbeast0]

Mostly copied from last thread, with scant addition to the H2H's.....


Moncrief's primary compliment as a defensive player is that he was a "stopper". I'd looked at some H2H's (just added Clyde Drexler to the pool of those evaluated), and it's [so far] not reflected in the players I've looked at match-ups against (and I'm cherry-picking only Moncrief's prime years ['82-'86], too):

'85-'86 Michael Jordan vs. Moncrief (8 games): 26.6 ppg, 52.9% eFG%, 9.6 FTA/g, 5.1 apg, 2.75 topg
'85-'86 M.Jordan overall: 27.2 ppg, 50.8% eFG%, 8.7 FTA/g, 5.3 apg, 3.4 topg

'82-'86 Dennis Johnson vs Moncrief (18 games): 17.2 ppg, 46.25% eFG%, 5.6 FTA/g, 54.5% TS, 5.1 apg, 2.4 topg
'82-'86 D.Johnson overall: 15.6 ppg, 46.1% eFG%, 4.5 FTA/g, 52.5% TS, 5.3 apg, 2.5 topg

'82-'83 David Thompson vs Moncrief (4 games): 16.5 ppg, 47.8% eFG%, 7.0 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.5 topg
'82-'83 D.Thompson overall: 15.4 ppg, 48.5% eFG%, 5.3 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.2 topg

'82-'85 Andrew Toney vs Moncrief (21 games): 19.1 ppg @ 60.0% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.0 topg
'82-'85 Andrew Toney overall: 18.6 ppg @ 57.7% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.3 topg

'82-'86 Walter Davis vs Moncrief (9 games): 19.2 ppg, 46.7% eFG%, 4.1 FTA/g, 3.3 apg, 2.2 topg
'82-'86 W.Davis overall: 18.8 ppg, 50.9% eFG%, 3.2 FTA/g, 4.7 apg, 2.6 topg

Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) vs Moncrief (6 games): 14.5 ppg @ 49.7% TS, 6.8 apg, 3.2 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) overall: 14.3 ppg @ 52.5% TS, 5.0 apg, 2.6 topg.

Darrell Griffith vs Moncrief (16 games): 16.4 ppg
Darrell Griffith overall in same years ('81-'89, '91): 17.1 ppg


I've now looked at just a few H2H's for Michael Cooper (as he was generally the guy the Lakers would turn to to cover the most potent scorer of the opposing team's perimeter core):

Michael Jordan vs Cooper (9 games): 31.2 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 6.2 apg, 4.0 topg.
‘85-’90 MJ overall: 32.8 ppg @ 59.2% TS, 6.0 apg, 3.3 topg

Sidney Moncrief vs Cooper (20 games): 13.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.0 apg, 2.0 topg.
‘80-’89 Moncrief overall: 16.7 ppg @ 59.1% TS, 3.9 apg, 2.1 topg.

Andrew Toney vs Cooper (12 games): 20.7 ppg @ *55.8% TS, *1.9 apg, **3.0 topg (*11 games, **8 games).
Andrew Toney overall: 15.9 ppg @ 56.5% TS, 4.2 apg, 3.0 topg.

Walter Davis vs Cooper (‘80-’90, 46 games): 17.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.6 topg.
Walter Davis (‘80-’90) overall: 18.9 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.4 topg.

Clyde Drexler vs Cooper (38 games): 19.4 ppg @ 49.5% TS, 5.9 apg, 2.8 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’90) overall: 20.3 ppg @ 54.6% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.8 topg.
NOTE: Drexler held to 19.8 ppg @ 49.0% TS, 8.9 apg, 3.8 topg in playoffs against Cooper (weighted for playoff games played against Lakers in each meeting, was avg 20.95 ppg @ 54.2% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.95 topg in rs same years)

Darrell Griffith vs Cooper (40 games): 15.8 ppg
Darrell Griffith overall same years: 17.3 ppg

^^^You'll note that [so far; we're still far from conclusive of anything, I realize] we're seeing a more consistent trend of opposing wing scorers having trouble when facing Cooper than we see in Moncrief's study above (and note that I'm using ALL of Cooper's career, not just the prime years as I did with Moncrief). I also note Cooper's slightly better help D numbers (2.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100, vs. 1.9 and 0.5 for Sid), although Sid did that in higher mpg. However , in total career minutes they're basically even.

Coop's also got a DPOY to his credit, and a higher total of All-D honors, fwiw.
Vote: Michael Cooper.

As I said in the last thread where people were still arguing about Jordan, can we keep the Moncrief arguments to the thread he was elected in (or earlier threads) and argue about the people that are still eligible instead of rehashing what is now irrelevant information?

Thanks

[trex_8063]

Mostly copied from last thread, with scant addition to the H2H's.....


Moncrief's primary compliment as a defensive player is that he was a "stopper". I'd looked at some H2H's (just added Clyde Drexler to the pool of those evaluated), and it's [so far] not reflected in the players I've looked at match-ups against (and I'm cherry-picking only Moncrief's prime years ['82-'86], too):

'85-'86 Michael Jordan vs. Moncrief (8 games): 26.6 ppg, 52.9% eFG%, 9.6 FTA/g, 5.1 apg, 2.75 topg
'85-'86 M.Jordan overall: 27.2 ppg, 50.8% eFG%, 8.7 FTA/g, 5.3 apg, 3.4 topg

'82-'86 Dennis Johnson vs Moncrief (18 games): 17.2 ppg, 46.25% eFG%, 5.6 FTA/g, 54.5% TS, 5.1 apg, 2.4 topg
'82-'86 D.Johnson overall: 15.6 ppg, 46.1% eFG%, 4.5 FTA/g, 52.5% TS, 5.3 apg, 2.5 topg

'82-'83 David Thompson vs Moncrief (4 games): 16.5 ppg, 47.8% eFG%, 7.0 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.5 topg
'82-'83 D.Thompson overall: 15.4 ppg, 48.5% eFG%, 5.3 FTA/g, 2.5 apg, 2.2 topg

'82-'85 Andrew Toney vs Moncrief (21 games): 19.1 ppg @ 60.0% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.0 topg
'82-'85 Andrew Toney overall: 18.6 ppg @ 57.7% TS, 4.5 apg, 3.3 topg

'82-'86 Walter Davis vs Moncrief (9 games): 19.2 ppg, 46.7% eFG%, 4.1 FTA/g, 3.3 apg, 2.2 topg
'82-'86 W.Davis overall: 18.8 ppg, 50.9% eFG%, 3.2 FTA/g, 4.7 apg, 2.6 topg

Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) vs Moncrief (6 games): 14.5 ppg @ 49.7% TS, 6.8 apg, 3.2 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’86) overall: 14.3 ppg @ 52.5% TS, 5.0 apg, 2.6 topg.

Darrell Griffith vs Moncrief (16 games): 16.4 ppg
Darrell Griffith overall in same years ('81-'89, '91): 17.1 ppg


I've now looked at just a few H2H's for Michael Cooper (as he was generally the guy the Lakers would turn to to cover the most potent scorer of the opposing team's perimeter core):

Michael Jordan vs Cooper (9 games): 31.2 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 6.2 apg, 4.0 topg.
‘85-’90 MJ overall: 32.8 ppg @ 59.2% TS, 6.0 apg, 3.3 topg

Sidney Moncrief vs Cooper (20 games): 13.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.0 apg, 2.0 topg.
‘80-’89 Moncrief overall: 16.7 ppg @ 59.1% TS, 3.9 apg, 2.1 topg.

Andrew Toney vs Cooper (12 games): 20.7 ppg @ *55.8% TS, *1.9 apg, **3.0 topg (*11 games, **8 games).
Andrew Toney overall: 15.9 ppg @ 56.5% TS, 4.2 apg, 3.0 topg.

Walter Davis vs Cooper (‘80-’90, 46 games): 17.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.6 topg.
Walter Davis (‘80-’90) overall: 18.9 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.4 topg.

Clyde Drexler vs Cooper (38 games): 19.4 ppg @ 49.5% TS, 5.9 apg, 2.8 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’90) overall: 20.3 ppg @ 54.6% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.8 topg.
NOTE: Drexler held to 19.8 ppg @ 49.0% TS, 8.9 apg, 3.8 topg in playoffs against Cooper (weighted for playoff games played against Lakers in each meeting, was avg 20.95 ppg @ 54.2% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.95 topg in rs same years)

Darrell Griffith vs Cooper (40 games): 15.8 ppg
Darrell Griffith overall same years: 17.3 ppg

^^^You'll note that [so far; we're still far from conclusive of anything, I realize] we're seeing a more consistent trend of opposing wing scorers having trouble when facing Cooper than we see in Moncrief's study above (and note that I'm using ALL of Cooper's career, not just the prime years as I did with Moncrief). I also note Cooper's slightly better help D numbers (2.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100, vs. 1.9 and 0.5 for Sid), although Sid did that in higher mpg. However , in total career minutes they're basically even.

Coop's also got a DPOY to his credit, and a higher total of All-D honors, fwiw.
Vote: Michael Cooper.

As I said in the last thread where people were still arguing about Jordan, can we keep the Moncrief arguments to the thread he was elected in (or earlier threads) and argue about the people that are still eligible instead of rehashing what is now irrelevant information?

Thanks

I thought of this (and I did contribute to derailing the last thread), but I thought the above was perhaps relevant from a "if this, then it follows that" kind of way (i.e. "if Moncrief went #2, and Cooper compares very favorably per this info I've provided, then it follows that Coop belongs around here too").

In the future, I'll try to push comments on past candidates into the prior threads.

[trex_8063]

#'s 1 and 2 are set.
It sure looks like Tony Allen is going to run away with #3.
It looks like Michael Cooper might be the strongest/most-supported candidate for #4.

I would tend to agree with these four leading off. These were sort of my "clear" top 4 going into this section (though I would have have had Cooper ahead of Moncrief and Allen, personally). With Moncrief and Allen off the table, I'll now be feeling quite strong regarding Cooper in the upcoming #4 thread.

After that, it feels like the field opens up quite a bit for #5-8 or so. I'm honestly not sure who I'm going to support and in what order (have been quietly doing some studies/compiling some info when I can).
Just by way of starting some discussion on new candidates, anyone want to throw out some arguments for someone other than these presumed top 4? I'm looking mostly at Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Jimmy Butler, and maybe Don Chaney as my potential #5 candidate, though what about Eddie Jones as a dark horse pick?? I'm starting to get the feeling he went fairly unrecognized during his career.

EDIT: DWade and Kobe may warrant some discussion by that point, too, perhaps???? Roberson is beastly enough that I'll be giving him consideration somewhere around #7/8 and after, too, even with his skimpy career minutes.

EDIT2: Damn! And Jerry Sloan, too; definitely need to be considering him by #5. Can't believe I almost forgot about him. Ugh, it's gonna be really tough to decide on #5 (and after).

[Gibson22]

Tony allen 11 (Dr Positivity, cecilthesheep, electricmayhem, mddonnelly1989, lost92bricks, iggymcfrack, penbeast0, pandrade83, bounce_9, feyki)
Michael Cooper 6 (kendogg, samurai, bledredwine, trex, knickfan, sincegatlingwasarookie)
Alvin Robertson 2 (GYK, BAMBA5)
Joe Dumars 1 (OdomFan)

[Gibson22]

#'s 1 and 2 are set.
It sure looks like Tony Allen is going to run away with #3.
It looks like Michael Cooper might be the strongest/most-supported candidate for #4.

I would tend to agree with these four leading off. These were sort of my "clear" top 4 going into this section (though I would have have had Cooper ahead of Moncrief and Allen, personally). With Moncrief and Allen off the table, I'll now be feeling quite strong regarding Cooper in the upcoming #4 thread.

After that, it feels like the field opens up quite a bit for #5-8 or so. I'm honestly not sure who I'm going to support and in what order (have been quietly doing some studies/compiling some info when I can).
Just by way of starting some discussion on new candidates, anyone want to throw out some arguments for someone other than these presumed top 4? I'm looking mostly at Joe Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Jimmy Butler, and maybe Don Chaney as my potential #5 candidate, though what about Eddie Jones as a dark horse pick?? I'm starting to get the feeling he went fairly unrecognized during his career.

EDIT: DWade and Kobe may warrant some discussion by that point, too, perhaps???? Roberson is beastly enough that I'll be giving him consideration somewhere around #7/8 and after, too, even with his skimpy career minutes.

EDIT2: Damn! And Jerry Sloan, too; definitely need to be considering him by #5. Can't believe I almost forgot about him. Ugh, it's gonna be really tough to decide on #5 (and after).

I agree, the top 4 are the 4 players one would expect to come out on top, and those are the next candidates for me.
I would like to know more on don chaney and jerry sloan, I will see what I can find

[Gibson22]

Tony allen wins