#4 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

We vote the #4 best defensive shooting guard of all time.
EVERYBODY CAN PARTECIPATE.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen

And this is where it started
Idea

And this is where we listed the candidates. I opened a poll where butler, thabo, andre roberson and dan majerle came out as SGs. Iguodala, Bowen, Stepehn Jackson are SFs

Candidates list



these are the candidates



Bill Sharman (Washington Capitols, 1951/1961, All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Tom Gola (Philadelphia Warriors, San Francisco Warriors, Knicks, 1956/1966 All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Jerry Sloan (Bullets, Bulls, 1966/1976, X6 All-Defensive)

Don Chaney (Lakers, St.Louis Spirits, 1969/1980, X5 All-Defensive)

Lionel Hollins (Blazers, 76ers, San Diego Clippers, Pistons, Rockets, 1976/1985, X2 All-Defensive)

Eddie Johnson (Hawks, Cavs, Supersonics, 1978/1987, X2 All-Defensive)

T.R. Dunn (Portland, Denver, Phoenix, 1978/1991, X3 All-Defensive)

Michael Cooper (Lakers, 1979-1990, X8 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Fat Lever (Blazers, Nuggets, Mavs, 1983/1994, X1 All-Defensive)

Alvin Robertson (Spurs, Bucks, Pistons, Raptors, 1985/1996 X6 All-Defensive, X1 DPOY)

Joe Dumars (Pistons, 1986/1999, X5 All-Defensive)

Dan Majerle (Suns, Cavs, Heat, 1989/2002, X2 All-Defensive)

John Starks (Warriors, Knicks, Bulls, Jazz, 1989/2002, X1 All-Defensive)

Vernon Maxwell (Spurs, Rockets, 76ers, Magic, Hornets, Kings, SuperSonics, Mavs, 1989/2001)

Mitch Richmond (Warriors, Kings, Wizards, Lakers, 1989/2002)

Jaren Jackson Sr (Nets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Rockets, Bullets, Spurs, Magic, 1990/2002)

Nick Anderson (Magic, Kings, Grizzlies, 1990/2002)

Bobby Phills (Cavs, Hornets, 1992/2000, X1 All-Defensive)

Stacey Augmon (Hawks, Pistons, Blazers, Hornets, Magic, 1992/2006)

Latrell Sprewell (Warriors, Knicks, Timberwolves, 1993/2005, X1 All-Defensive)

Doug Christie (Lakers, Knicks, Raptors, Kings, Magic, Mavs, Clippers, 1993/2007, X4 All-Defensive)

Aaron Mckie (Blazers, Pistons, 76ers, Lakers, 1995/2007)

Eddie Jones (Lakers, Hornets, Heat, Grizzlies, Mavs, 1995/2008, X3 All-Defensive)

Kobe Bryant (Lakers, 1997/2016, X12 All-Defensive)

Raja Bell (76ers, Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Hornets, Warrios, 2001-2012, X2 All-Defensive)

Manu Ginobili (Spurs, 2003/2018)

Wade (Heat, Bulls, Cavs, 2004/2018, X3 All-Defensive)

Thabo Sefolosha (Bulls, OKC, Atlanta, Utah, 2007/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Danny Green (Cavs, Spurs, 2010/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Avery Bradley (Celtics, Pistons, Clippers, 2011/2018, X2 All-Defensive)

Jimmy Butler (Bulls, Timberwolves, 2012/2018, X4 All-Defensive)

Klay Thompson (Warriors, 2012/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Victor Oladipo (Orlando, Okc, Indiana, 2014/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Marcus smart (Boston Celtics, 2015/2018)

Andre Roberson (OKC, 2015/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

[Gibson22]

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[mdonnelly1989]

Now that 1B, 1B, 1C is done.

I think there is where it gets interesting and I can think of several people who could fit this...

Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Alvin Robertson are my next 3 candidates.

I'm going to have to take Michael Cooper slightly over Bowen, slightly over Robertson all very close though.

Michael Cooper gets my vote. He was the Tony Allen of the 1980's, guarded everyone from Larry Bird, probably guarded Magic in practice to MJ.

[pandrade83]

Going into this, I had it as sid, mj, Allen and cooper, Sloan as my top 5.

Cooper has such a broad range of guys he could cover and IMO played with guys who weren’t defensively strong - at least in those spots in their career and took on all comers. He’s another perimeter player who won Dpoy. I’m traveling right now so I can’t elaborate more but that’s my pick for this slot.

[Samurai]

My vote is for Michael Cooper. He was a 5-time NBA Add-Defensive first team member and 3 times on the second team, winning DPOY in 87. He used a combination of length and foot speed to defend the other team's best player, such as Jordan, Dominique, Dr. J, or Bird. His versatility allowed him to defend PG's, SG's, or forwards.

[Gibson22]

I'm with cooper too, well, I tought (or I think) he had a case for number 1 too, I think this is going to be an easy win for him, probably we could start discussing our opinins about the next candidates

[Luigi]

I haven't seen all of these guys play, but it's probably Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson, Joe Dumars, and Jerry Sloan up next.

I'll vote for Cooper.

[trex_8063]

I've looked at just a few H2H's for Michael Cooper (as he was generally the guy the Lakers would turn to to cover the most potent scorer of the opposing team's perimeter core):

Michael Jordan vs Cooper (9 games): 31.2 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 6.2 apg, 4.0 topg.
‘85-’90 MJ overall: 32.8 ppg @ 59.2% TS, 6.0 apg, 3.3 topg

Sidney Moncrief vs Cooper (20 games): 13.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.0 apg, 2.0 topg.
‘80-’89 Moncrief overall: 16.7 ppg @ 59.1% TS, 3.9 apg, 2.1 topg.

Andrew Toney vs Cooper (12 games): 20.7 ppg @ *55.8% TS, *1.9 apg, **3.0 topg (*11 games, **8 games).
Andrew Toney overall: 15.9 ppg @ 56.5% TS, 4.2 apg, 3.0 topg.

Walter Davis vs Cooper (‘80-’90, 46 games): 17.2 ppg @ 52.9% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.6 topg.
Walter Davis (‘80-’90) overall: 18.9 ppg @ 55.5% TS, 4.1 apg, 2.4 topg.

Clyde Drexler vs Cooper (38 games): 19.4 ppg @ 49.5% TS, 5.9 apg, 2.8 topg.
Clyde Drexler (‘84-’90) overall: 20.3 ppg @ 54.6% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.8 topg.
NOTE: Drexler held to 19.8 ppg @ 49.0% TS, 8.9 apg, 3.8 topg in playoffs against Cooper (weighted for playoff games played against Lakers in each meeting, was avg 20.95 ppg @ 54.2% TS, 5.6 apg, 2.95 topg in rs same years)

Darrell Griffith vs Cooper (40 games): 15.8 ppg
Darrell Griffith overall same years: 17.3 ppg

^^^That's quite a consistent trend of opposing wing scorers having trouble when facing Cooper (and I'm using Coop's entire career in these samples). Coop's got respectable help D numbers (2.1 steals and 1.0 blocks per 100 for his career), with similar career minutes as Moncrief (among major candidates only Dumars and Sloan have more [only slightly so for Sloan]).

Coop's also got a DPOY to his credit, and he's got eight All-D honors (five 1st team, three 2nd team).
Vote: Michael Cooper.

[penbeast0]

Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Alvin Robertson are my next 3 candidates. .

Bowen is at the 3.

Not as impressed with Alvin as others maybe because I saw him burned with his gambling as much as I saw him create instant offense with it. Would need to see some statistical evidence of his actual defensive impact to vote him top 10.

I will go with Michael Cooper here as well. Versatile, good eye test, extremely athletic.

[kendogg]

I vote Michael Cooper. Incredible defender and very versatile as well. Was the lockdown defender of one of the best teams of all time. Has the peak (DPOY as a guard is very rare and came late in his career as well) and has the longevity (8x all defense). 5x champion, and that matters because the competition is the toughest in the playoffs.

[cecilthesheep]

I'm late to this thread, but for reasons explained above and in previous threads, I vote Michael Cooper. I was at least considering him for every previous spot; he passes the eye test better than any other candidate, but has a weaker advanced-stats footprint than the guys above this spot. I definitely wouldn't feel good about putting him any lower than fourth.

[Dr Positivity]

I'm gonna have a hard time picking the next handful but Cooper is running away with this anyways. My impression is to go low on Robertson because of gambling. I think Cooper, Sloan, Dumars have a case this high. I'm pretty high on Danny Green, I think he does a lot of subtle things on defense and his +/- data has always been good. Butler is also a strong defender who was good on that end early in his career, his longevity is actually just as good as Green's

[bledredwine]

I’m voting Michael Cooper again.

I’m not disappointed at all with the voting so far. After Jordan/Syd, there’s a bit of a gap.... Cooper and Allen are close. I’ve seen both of these guys provide tenacious man-to-man D.

[LA Bird]

though what about Eddie Jones as a dark horse pick?? I'm starting to get the feeling he went fairly unrecognized during his career.

Cooper has won but I am quoting this from last thread since I think it's about time people start mentioning Eddie Jones as a strong candidate for next round onward. He had great longevity and he rates well if not better than most of the best defensive guards whether we are using box score stats, advanced stats or plus minus stats. Except for his reputation as a choker on offense (irrelevant in this project), pretty much the only reason why Jones is so criminally underrated is the over-emphasis on media-awarded defensive accolades. People recognize how inaccurate the defensive awards can be (sorry Kobe) but the DPOYs are still taken very seriously even though it's well known the media overrated defensive guards in the 80s. Despite criticism for his gambling tendencies, Alvin Robertson has already garnered more support than Don Buse ever did in the top 10 PG list... which I doubt would have been the case if he never won that DPOY.

[trex_8063]

Man, Cooper's running away with this round. I think it's 10 votes to none for anyone else so far!

Will try to come back later today with discussion on future round candidates.....

[Gibson22]

Hey, since the discussion about the other candidates will probably be interesting and cooper has won this, what do you think about moving on to the next round in a few yours?

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Vote Michael Cooper

[trex_8063]

Wow. 11-nil for Cooper vs the field. Yeah, I would say we can move on to #5, as all relevant conversation would pertain to other candidates.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I was thinking about Roberson. I have had some decent looks at him but can't decide how good he is. I might think about him more at 8th or 9th. Another defensive player reminded me a bit of Roberson. That was Stacy Augmon. Was peak Roberson definitely better than peak Augmon?