Butler has requested a trade, the saga continues

[minimus]

Since as a Heat fan we've committed so much time to this I wanted to share my opinion.

News are coming out at the Wolves aren't interested because they'd be getting Knight and Chriss, but what I find interesting is that none of the reports seem to mention any type of protection, which leads me to assume that there was some protection as in -- Lottery protected on the last pick and would turn into a second rounder or something along those lines, hence why the Wolves didn't jump on it immediately.
I also found it interesting that Woj mentioned on ESPN that they expect the Heat to counter offer and now I wake up to this;

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Now I'm not going to sit here and say that this was a strategy to get the Heat back on the table, but if it is and it brings us closer to a solution then I'm all for it.

I still have my doubts that Minnesota would keep him West and help Houston build a monster team.

I'd take Whiteside, Richardson and FRP for Dieng and Butler over 4 picks and garbage from HOU.

[Slim Tubby]

Hypothetically, which scenario would you guys prefer?

MIA In ($20M): Jimmy Butler
MIA Out ($19M): Josh Richardson, Wayne Ellington, Bam Adebayo & 2019 Top 20 Protected 1st (MIA)

SAC In ($15M): Gorgui Dieng & 2019 Top 20 Protected 1st (MIA)
SAC Out ($12M): Zach Randolph

MIN In ($31M): Josh Richardson, Zach Randolph, Wayne Ellington & Bam Adebayo
MIN Out ($35M): Jimmy Butler & Gorgui Dieng

OR

HOU In ($20M): Jimmy Butler
HOU Out ($19M): Eric Gordon, Marquese Chriss, 2019 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2021 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2023 Unprotected 1st (HOU) & 2025 Unprotected 1st (HOU)

MIN In ($19M): Eric Gordon, Marquese Chriss, 2019 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2021 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2023 Unprotected 1st (HOU) & 2025 Unprotected 1st (HOU)
MIN Out ($20M): Jimmy Butler

[Nick K]

The real part I have a problem with is the baggage that making a pick in the top 5 carries on all future decisions. Or what being pick 25 does to the chances for a player. Nobody wants to let those top picks be failures because they have put so much unearned belief and value in them. I have a feeling that's how Wiggins got his max deal. Had the Wolves not offered it or really lowballed him, they immediately throw a large portion of that fictitious value out the window. They weren't prepared to do so. To pay him, the act of doing so, helps him maintain some of that value. To continue giving him shots and minutes saves his value a little longer. That's why he can't be a sixth man here but it would have been ok for Lavine to be one here. Now he's the one starting with consecutive 30 point games, but it had to happen elsewhere because of our belief in the order of picks. These things do skew it all. Actual real probability might show that out of the shear numbers of players available each year that teams should be able to find more capable players late than they often have. But humans being humans can get in the way.

I don't agree with you.
Anthony Bennett a number one pick got out of the league in 2 years.
Beasley nr2 pick was sent to China for 2 years while he is capable to be a 15-20ppg player in every team who gives him oportunity.
I don't think that teams are engaged with high drafted players.
And about Wiggins, the time he got the contract he was a 24ppg scorer while 21 yo.
That had nothing to do with his draft selection order

We can't forget #2 pick Derrick Williams. i think he just went to China. Good place for him. He'll be a star there.

[ifrosty13]

Hypothetically, which scenario would you guys prefer?

MIA In ($20M): Jimmy Butler
MIA Out ($19M): Josh Richardson, Wayne Ellington, Bam Adebayo & 2019 Top 20 Protected 1st (MIA)

SAC In ($15M): Gorgui Dieng & 2019 Top 20 Protected 1st (MIA)
SAC Out ($12M): Zach Randolph

MIN In ($31M): Josh Richardson, Zach Randolph, Wayne Ellington & Bam Adebayo
MIN Out ($35M): Jimmy Butler & Gorgui Dieng

OR

HOU In ($20M): Jimmy Butler
HOU Out ($19M): Eric Gordon, Marquese Chriss, 2019 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2021 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2023 Unprotected 1st (HOU) & 2025 Unprotected 1st (HOU)

MIN In ($19M): Eric Gordon, Marquese Chriss, 2019 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2021 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2023 Unprotected 1st (HOU) & 2025 Unprotected 1st (HOU)
MIN Out ($20M): Jimmy Butler

Ellington has a No trade clause. He's not getting moved.

[Dante80]

As an outside observer, I don't get it guys. Without Butler, you are still making the play-offs if your two stars play well. With anyone coming in Butlers' place, you are not going for the chip. Why go for a win now move when you just locked your young stars to big contracts until at least 2023, instead of getting 4 more picks to trade and strengthen your team?

Even with lottery protections and projected to be 25,25,15,10 this is good value for a player that does not want to play for your team and you are going to lose for nothing. It is certainly better value than anything that Miami can bring to the table, considering your current timeline.

Every day that he stays his value gets diminished, he may get injured and your locker room is on fire. What do I get wrong?

[Slim Tubby]

Hypothetically, which scenario would you guys prefer?

MIA In ($20M): Jimmy Butler
MIA Out ($19M): Josh Richardson, Wayne Ellington, Bam Adebayo & 2019 Top 20 Protected 1st (MIA)

SAC In ($15M): Gorgui Dieng & 2019 Top 20 Protected 1st (MIA)
SAC Out ($12M): Zach Randolph

MIN In ($31M): Josh Richardson, Zach Randolph, Wayne Ellington & Bam Adebayo
MIN Out ($35M): Jimmy Butler & Gorgui Dieng

OR

HOU In ($20M): Jimmy Butler
HOU Out ($19M): Eric Gordon, Marquese Chriss, 2019 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2021 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2023 Unprotected 1st (HOU) & 2025 Unprotected 1st (HOU)

MIN In ($19M): Eric Gordon, Marquese Chriss, 2019 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2021 Unprotected 1st (HOU), 2023 Unprotected 1st (HOU) & 2025 Unprotected 1st (HOU)
MIN Out ($20M): Jimmy Butler

Ellington has a No trade clause. He's not getting moved.

I didn't know that...thanks for clarifying, frosty.

[FargoWolf]

Every day that he stays his value gets diminished, he may get injured and your locker room is on fire. What do I get wrong?

Well for starters, his value has only increased. Last time I checked this offer wasn't on the table previously.

[Dante80]

Well for starters, his value has only increased. Last time I checked this offer wasn't on the table previously.

Judging from many of the comments here, it "seems" like this offer is worse than the previous ones leaked. I don't agree with that, which is the reason that I asked in this thread.

[FargoWolf]

Well for starters, his value has only increased. Last time I checked this offer wasn't on the table previously.

Judging from many of the comments here, it "seems" like this offer is worse than the previous ones leaked. I don't agree with that, which is the reason that I asked in this thread.

I don't think it is worse but it has some flaws just like the others. The real value with this deal is that brought other teams back to table and creates some leverage for Thibs.

[Jedzz]

We see 4 1st round picks and we automatically assume that’s a good deal, but none of those picks are guaranteed stars or even starters in this league based on where Houston is expected to finish in the standings.

No picks are guaranteed anywhere in the first round. Hope is higher on top picks but that's about all that's a given.

[Jedzz]

Nobody seems to be talking about any outgoing players the Timberwolves might also add to any deal. Aside from the earlier talk of trying to get teams to take Dieng.

What if the Butler trade went down, with whoever, and Rose is also gone. Or a three team deal happens and Taj or Tyus are gone. How well is this team going to retool in November?

Seems hard to get them prepared to start a season with a whole offseason. It's not like a Lebron show that can retool the roster at deadline midseason. Speaking of which, if the Lakers don't start winning more does Lebron retool the lakers with a Jimmy add at the deadline?

[Norseman79]

If the Lakers keep struggling, Jimmy for Ingram and Ball sounds good.

[Jedzz]

As an outside observer, I don't get it guys. Without Butler, you are still making the play-offs if your two stars play well. With anyone coming in Butlers' place, you are not going for the chip. Why go for a win now move when you just locked your young stars to big contracts until at least 2023, instead of getting 4 more picks to trade and strengthen your team?

Even with lottery protections and projected to be 25,25,15,10 this is good value for a player that does not want to play for your team and you are going to lose for nothing. It is certainly better value than anything that Miami can bring to the table, considering your current timeline.

Every day that he stays his value gets diminished, he may get injured and your locker room is on fire. What do I get wrong?

Maybe the only thing you possibly got wrong was expecting playoffs without Butler. Aside from Rose this year I don't see anyone else stepping up so far to say they can/will arive each game in a way that will carry this team. Okogie looks more into it than most of them.

[Jedzz]

We can't forget #2 pick Derrick Williams. i think he just went to China. Good place for him. He'll be a star there.

He lasted in this league a while.

[KGdaBom]

That future is pretty much inevitable at this point. It's just that it would be nice to have a couple of extra picks for the re-re-re-rebuild.

Why not just pay Butler and keep building up? If Okogie works on his game and can add a decent shot to what he already has, maybe you move Wiggins for a very good vet or multiple good players from a team that's looking to rebuild. As much as we believe Wiggins is a bad value, there are some teams out there devoid of talent or desperate enough to make a move for him.

Because he's said multiple times he's not going to sign here for one.
Secondly, KAT is the cornerstone of this franchise not butler and the two despise each other
Because when you have massive contracts it is very difficult to build effectively.
Third, Butler isn't a top 5 player. He's good, but he's not LeBron, Curry, Kawhi, Durant, AD, or Giannis.
He's basically the Damian Lillard of wings (and that's coming from a guy who loves Lillard)

IMO Butler saying he wouldn't sign here is virtually irrelevant. What do you expect him to say? "I want a trade, but if you don't trade me I will sign with you." Why does he want the trade? So he can sign the big contract with his new team. If Butler isn't traded I put the odds strongly in favor of him reupping with the wolves.

[Dante80]

As an outside observer, I don't get it guys. Without Butler, you are still making the play-offs if your two stars play well. With anyone coming in Butlers' place, you are not going for the chip. Why go for a win now move when you just locked your young stars to big contracts until at least 2023, instead of getting 4 more picks to trade and strengthen your team?

Even with lottery protections and projected to be 25,25,15,10 this is good value for a player that does not want to play for your team and you are going to lose for nothing. It is certainly better value than anything that Miami can bring to the table, considering your current timeline.

Every day that he stays his value gets diminished, he may get injured and your locker room is on fire. What do I get wrong?

Maybe the only thing you possibly got wrong was expecting playoffs without Butler. Aside from Rose this year I don't see anyone else stepping up so far to say they can/will arive each game in a way that will carry this team. Okogie looks more into it than most of them.

Okogie has been very good so far, that is true. Also, I think that if/when Butler goes and this drama dies, the team is going to gel pretty fast. I expect a lot from KAT, and I think that you can make it.

[shrink]

I’m a little late to the party, so a couple comments.

1. Four first round picks can still be a win-now move, if the picks are used for other talent. For example, one could be used to turn Knight’s unproductive bad deal into Bazemore’s more productive bad deal.

2. Nobody can predict how good a team will be in seven years. I suspect Morey will be gone, and very few coaches last seven years. You are also talking about players in their 30’s. There is value here if the picks have limited or no protection.

3. You don’t need to check Twitter every ten minutes for updates. This deal can’t happen until October 31, because that’s the end of the CBA restriction on aggregating Knight’s salary. If it was done before, it would have to be Knight for Taj’s expiring, and simulataneously Eric Gordon plus “something small” for Butler... plus the picks.

[KGdaBom]

Since as a Heat fan we've committed so much time to this I wanted to share my opinion.

News are coming out at the Wolves aren't interested because they'd be getting Knight and Chriss, but what I find interesting is that none of the reports seem to mention any type of protection, which leads me to assume that there was some protection as in -- Lottery protected on the last pick and would turn into a second rounder or something along those lines, hence why the Wolves didn't jump on it immediately.
I also found it interesting that Woj mentioned on ESPN that they expect the Heat to counter offer and now I wake up to this;

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Now I'm not going to sit here and say that this was a strategy to get the Heat back on the table, but if it is and it brings us closer to a solution then I'm all for it.

I still have my doubts that Minnesota would keep him West and help Houston build a monster team.

Very good take on the situation Frosty. If the picks have protection that Kicks in The Wolves simply lose the pick or it gets changed to a second rounder. There are no other options. The picks have to be unprotected for it to make any sense at all to the Wolves. Also if Brandon Knight would be in the deal if I understand correctly we are stuck with him for a long time.

[KGdaBom]

As an outside observer, I don't get it guys. Without Butler, you are still making the play-offs if your two stars play well. With anyone coming in Butlers' place, you are not going for the chip. Why go for a win now move when you just locked your young stars to big contracts until at least 2023, instead of getting 4 more picks to trade and strengthen your team?

Even with lottery protections and projected to be 25,25,15,10 this is good value for a player that does not want to play for your team and you are going to lose for nothing. It is certainly better value than anything that Miami can bring to the table, considering your current timeline.

Every day that he stays his value gets diminished, he may get injured and your locker room is on fire. What do I get wrong?

Dante I will try to help here. Wiggins is not a star. He is an average player at best that we are stuck with on a 5 year max. Without Butler there is a 1% chance of us making the playoffs. The next few Houston FRPs with Butler added to the team might be #30. So the only real value in the deal would be 5 and 7 years from now. That is a LONG TIME to WAIT for a return. We would also be stuck with Brandon Knight for a long time if I understand correctly. It really isn't a good offer and I think there might be protections on the picks. If those protections kick in we lose the pick entirely.

[Jedzz]

Okogie has been very good so far, that is true. Also, I think that if/when Butler goes and this drama dies, the team is going to gel pretty fast. I expect a lot from KAT, and I think that you can make it.

I'm glad you expect a lot from Kat because I would like to offer him in a trade to the Bucks for some of their special players.