Re: #7 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of All Time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Gibson22]

We vote for the #7 best defensive shooting guard of all time. Eddie Jones won the run-off for the #6 place.
EVERYBODY CAN PARTECIPATE.

1. Jason Kidd
2.Walt Frazier
3. Gary Payton
4. Dennis Johnson
5. Jerry West
6. John Stockton
7. Chris Paul
8. Mookie Blaylock
9. Nate McMillan
10. Mo Cheeks

Shooting Guards:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Sidney Moncrief
3. Tony Allen
4. Michael Cooper
5. Alvin Robertson
6. Eddie Jones

And this is where it started
Idea

And this is where we listed the candidates. I opened a poll where butler, thabo, andre roberson and dan majerle came out as SGs. Iguodala, Bowen, Stepehn Jackson are SFs

Candidates list



these are the candidates



Bill Sharman (Washington Capitols, 1951/1961, All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Tom Gola (Philadelphia Warriors, San Francisco Warriors, Knicks, 1956/1966 All-Def teams didn’t exist)

Jerry Sloan (Bullets, Bulls, 1966/1976, X6 All-Defensive)

Don Chaney (Celtics, Lakers, St.Louis Spirits, 1969/1980, X5 All-Defensive)

Lionel Hollins (Blazers, 76ers, San Diego Clippers, Pistons, Rockets, 1976/1985, X2 All-Defensive)

Eddie Johnson (Hawks, Cavs, Supersonics, 1978/1987, X2 All-Defensive)

T.R. Dunn (Portland, Denver, Phoenix, 1978/1991, X3 All-Defensive)

Fat Lever (Blazers, Nuggets, Mavs, 1983/1994, X1 All-Defensive)

Joe Dumars (Pistons, 1986/1999, X5 All-Defensive)

Dan Majerle (Suns, Cavs, Heat, 1989/2002, X2 All-Defensive)

John Starks (Warriors, Knicks, Bulls, Jazz, 1989/2002, X1 All-Defensive)

Vernon Maxwell (Spurs, Rockets, 76ers, Magic, Hornets, Kings, SuperSonics, Mavs, 1989/2001)

Mitch Richmond (Warriors, Kings, Wizards, Lakers, 1989/2002)

Jaren Jackson Sr (Nets, Warriors, Clippers, Blazers, 76ers, Rockets, Bullets, Spurs, Magic, 1990/2002)

Nick Anderson (Magic, Kings, Grizzlies, 1990/2002)

Bobby Phills (Cavs, Hornets, 1992/2000, X1 All-Defensive)

Stacey Augmon (Hawks, Pistons, Blazers, Hornets, Magic, 1992/2006)

Latrell Sprewell (Warriors, Knicks, Timberwolves, 1993/2005, X1 All-Defensive)

Doug Christie (Lakers, Knicks, Raptors, Kings, Magic, Mavs, Clippers, 1993/2007, X4 All-Defensive)

Aaron Mckie (Blazers, Pistons, 76ers, Lakers, 1995/2007)

Kobe Bryant (Lakers, 1997/2016, X12 All-Defensive)

Raja Bell (76ers, Mavs, Jazz, Suns, Hornets, Warrios, 2001-2012, X2 All-Defensive)

Manu Ginobili (Spurs, 2003/2018)

Wade (Heat, Bulls, Cavs, 2004/2018, X3 All-Defensive)

Thabo Sefolosha (Bulls, OKC, Atlanta, Utah, 2007/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Danny Green (Cavs, Spurs, 2010/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Avery Bradley (Celtics, Pistons, Clippers, 2011/2018, X2 All-Defensive)

Jimmy Butler (Bulls, Timberwolves, 2012/2018, X4 All-Defensive)

Klay Thompson (Warriors, 2012/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Victor Oladipo (Orlando, Okc, Indiana, 2014/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Marcus smart (Boston Celtics, 2015/2018)

Andre Roberson (OKC, 2015/2018, X1 All-Defensive)

Spoiler:

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[Gibson22]

Rules of the project:
1) As you can see, this is a project about the ten best defenders in each position. In this ranking, like in any ranking of this genre, we consider the entire career or the players. Now, if you tend to give more importance to peak, prime, longevity, level of defense in higher level teams, or any other type of criteria, you can obviously do it.
The point of the thread is not "Who are the ten best players at defending ROLE X (in this case, at defending PGs)", the point is "Who are the ten players considered as ROLE X who are the best at defense"? Now, if you view the fact that a certain player considered in a certain role in certain seasons defended more ROLE Y players as a minus in this ranking, I don't know how that makes sense, but nobody can decide for you.

2) For the players whose role is not certain, we settle it before moving on with the next position. We did it before the PGs rankings, we will do for every other position.

3) You have 48 hours since the start of the thread to express your vote (preferably bolded), at the end of the 48 hours, the player who has more votes wins. Anybody can vote. If at the end of the 48 hours two or more players have the same amount of votes, we proceed with a run-off. The run-off will last for 15 hours. Anybody BUT the members who already voted for one of the partecipants in the run-off can express his vote in the run-off. If, at the end of the 15 hours, there still are tied candidates, the first player to have other 3 votes will win the run-off. Late votes were never counted and will never be.

If you need any other claryification, just tell me.

Thank you guys for your partecipation

[trex_8063]

Sloan passes the eye-test for me; he's got to be just about the most physical perimeter defender of his generation from the limited amount I've seen, and hustles like mad. Might be one of the original flop-artists too from what I've seen, though based what some of our resident "old timers" have said, he was frequently successful in drawing the charge call.

The Bulls were a brand new expansion team in Sloan's rookie season, and he really didn't get anything by way of relevant defensive help for the first few seasons (Bob Love would arrive by Sloan's FOURTH season in Chicago, Tom Boerwinkle was around by his third season [suppose that helps on the defensive glass]). And yet their worst defensive season in those four years was +0.7 rDRTG; their best was a -1.5 rDRTG (avg of -0.35 rDRTG over those four seasons).
When Chet Walker arrived in '71 they again managed a -1.5 rDRTG (still no real defensive anchor in the middle). When Norm Van Lier and a relevant shot-blocker (in rookie Clifford Ray) arrived in '72, they improved to a -3.6 rDRTG (3rd in the league, iirc). They would best that once in '74 (-4.1 rDRTG, 1st in league) and come close in '75 (-3.3, 2nd in league) with an aging Nate Thurmond replacing Clifford Ray.
In '76, Jerry Sloan would miss most of the season with injury (and subsequently retire), and they traded away aging Nate Thurmond early in the year; also Chet Walker has retired, fwiw. Still have Norm Van Lier, Bob Love, and Tom Boerwinkle as mainstays for the team, but the rDRTG falls to -0.3.
In '77 they again still have NVL, Love, and Boerwinkle, and have added a prime Artis Gilmore; rDRTG still falls short of the best Jerry Sloan years at just -2.1. The following year it would plummet to +2.0 rDRTG despite still having Gilmore and Van Lier filling big minutes.

^^^This arguably all points to some significant defensive impact by Jerry Sloan.

Where data is limited, I feel one must give some consideration to All-D honors; and has been noted previously Sloan was SIX times on the All-Defensive team (4x 1st).

BPM and DRtg were only available for his final three seasons: he has a +2.3 DBPM and a -5.9 rDRTG in those three years.

And lastly, Elgee's WOWYR gives Sloan a very respectable +3.7 career rating, despite the fact that he wasn't a good offensive player: career 14.0 ppg/2.5 apg, frequently slightly BELOW league avg TS%; career 13.2 PER [peaked at 14.9], .092 WS/48 [peaked at .130].
So it's safe to assume that the vast majority of value/impact measured there is coming on the defensive end.

All of that seems ample enough evidence to give him the nod here.

Vote: Jerry Sloan

[Gibson22]

Jerry Sloan for me too. I don't have the knowledge to really motivate the choice not even for myself, I mean, it's not that I really have an opinion that Jerry deserves the spot, it's just that from reputation, and from what I heard about him before these threads and in the previous thread, I'd guess that he was good enough to be in at this point, given the fact that I don't think there are goat level defenders in the list at this point, and that the best ones remaining have too few minutes.

After him (I think he will get this spot), for me it's between don chaney (from what I heard. again, I barely know him, it's just a guess), joe dumars, wade (both very good but not great on D, especially dumars I find him a bit overrated, still very very good), and jimmy B (A part from the top 4 of the ranking I don't think he is inferior to anybody, just the minutes played hurt him [anyway, he already has 4 seasons in the all-defensive team, I think he is the best defender left).

[penbeast0]

Good post by trex, I think Don Chaney was more fundamentally sound by the eye test but not as aggressive as Sloan. I have been leaning Chaney but he's not gaining traction and trex has some decent evidence (best we can come up with) for defensive impact so will switch to Jerry Sloan. I always liked him better than that damn Celtic anyway.

[cecilthesheep]

Voting for Jerry Sloan. Reputation and eye test are almost universally positive; he is tougher and more physical than just about anyone I've seen, in the film that's available. Advanced impact stats also love him - PIPM and WOWYR go nuts over him despite mediocre offensive impact and despite PIPM only grabbing his final 3 years. His steal totals from the three years available are also very respectable, despite him being past 30 at the time. Had DPOY existed in his day, I think he could have grabbed one.

[OdomFan]

Dumars

[Luigi]

Sloan

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote and reasons for Jerry Sloan. For whatever reason, he is more remembered by fans as a coach than as a player, which I think is a serious disservice to him. He was a 4-time All Defensive first team member and a 2-time second team member, but this vote is more based on the eye test than accolades or stats. Probably the roughest and toughest man defender on this list of candidates, including those already named. He was such a rugged defender that opposing players nicknamed him "the Butcher". One of the best ever at being willing to sacrifice his body to take the charge for an offensive foul; he was so good at it that even the ever-cool Walt Frazier would get so frustrated by Sloan that Clyde once admitted that he focused too much on trying to beat and damage Sloan taking those charges that it would take him out of the flow of the game. And Billy Cunningham and Rick Barry, both known for being more emotional than Clyde, admitted that Sloan's constant grabbing, slapping and knack for drawing offensive fouls would get under their skin to the point that it did distract them at times.

Some have criticized Sloan for not being as quick as other SG's on defense. While Sloan would admit that he wasn't the fastest player in the league, he made up for his lack of sheer foot speed by out-hustling everyone else; Sloan would lead the league in floor burns as he was constantly diving for loose balls.

[pandrade83]

Jerry Sloan - the metrics posted by Trex show SOME impact, but I'm mostly judging on eye test off the (admittedly) limited footage I've seen. No one else left visually came close to displaying that kind of impact on a consistent basis.

[trex_8063]

It's starting to look like Sloan will run away with this spot......which leaves me thinking about who to support in the next thread. I'm presently undecided. Don Chaney, Jimmy Butler, Joe Dumars, Doug Christie, Stacey Augmon all on the table for me; likely going to be one of them, though I'm also eye-balling Thabo Sefolosha.

[cecilthesheep]

It's starting to look like Sloan will run away with this spot......which leaves me thinking about who to support in the next thread. I'm presently undecided. Don Chaney, Jimmy Butler, Joe Dumars, Doug Christie, Stacey Augmon all on the table for me; likely going to be one of them, though I'm also eye-balling Thabo Sefolosha.

Basically. I'm really going to have decide how important longevity is, because I think Andre Roberson was better than all those guys for about a year and a half.

[trex_8063]

It's starting to look like Sloan will run away with this spot......which leaves me thinking about who to support in the next thread. I'm presently undecided. Don Chaney, Jimmy Butler, Joe Dumars, Doug Christie, Stacey Augmon all on the table for me; likely going to be one of them, though I'm also eye-balling Thabo Sefolosha.

Basically. I'm really going to have decide how important longevity is, because I think Andre Roberson was better than all those guys for about a year and a half.

I've been trying to balance total career defensive contributions against peak/best 3-5 years; I don't want to take cumulative value straight-up if it's spread really thinly across too many years, but at the same time a slightly lesser defender who managed to do it for twice as long [or whatever] will still get my pick here.

Thus, I've come to the conclusion that Roberson likely will not get a pick from me in this project (might if we were doing top 12 or 15; but not 10). He's a guy who I expect WILL be in my top 10 defensive SG's eventually, but not quite yet.

[mdonnelly1989]

Joe Dumars

[Gibson22]

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[therealbig3]

Please remove me from the list.

[OdomFan]

Remove me please.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I am taking a pass on this vote . I am not going to vote against Sloan since I never saw him play. Sloan's many years on the all defensive team are impressive. On the other hand Sloan did not pass my little test of holding down the few good off guards that I checked. It was 't many games but Charlie Scott lit Sloan up. Should I trust the guys picking the all defensive team? The Bulls pace may have made their defense look better than it was. I actually looked to see if Mike Fratello was on their staff; he wasn't.

[trex_8063]

I am taking a pass on this vote . I am not going to vote against Sloan since I never saw him play. Sloan's many years on the all defensive team are impressive. On the other hand Sloan did not pass my little test of holding down the few good off guards that I checked. It was 't many games but Charlie Scott lit Sloan up. Should I trust the guys picking the all defensive team? The Bulls pace may have made their defense look better than it was. I actually looked to see if Mike Fratello was on their staff; he wasn't.

DRtg (or rDRTG) take pace out of the equation (because it's per 100 possessions); those Bulls defenses were indeed good (occasionally elite).

Charlie Scott is merely one guy, too (and only a 10-game sample at that).

To look at a couple more with more relevant samples.....
Earl Monroe (37-game sample) averaged 19.9 ppg and 3.1 apg (assist data incomplete in sample) against Sloan, vs 20.4 and 4.0 overall in same years. Incomplete sampling on FGA, too; from the games it is available for he appears to have shot a slightly BETTTER FG% than usual against Sloan, but also got to the FT-line less frequently.
Joe Caldwell (34-game sample) averaged 13.6 ppg (w/ 3.6 FTA) and 2.75 apg (assist #'s available in only 16 games of sample) against Sloan, vs 16.0 ppg (w/ 4.2 FTA) and 2.8 apg overall in same years.


Further, I'm not sure being a "stopper" is Sloan's claim to fame. More a "disruptor" from what I've seen: ball-pressure as opposing guards bring the ball up (disrupting their rhythm and getting into their halfcourt), drawing charges, and otherwise being a ball-thief (note in his last two semi-prime seasons ['74 and '75] he averaged 2.9 and 3.2 steals per 100 possessions; to put that in perspective, Dwyane Wade peaked at 3.0 steals/100).

[trex_8063]

I believe it's been >48 hours, and this is very clearly going to Sloan. Shall we move on?